Questions on Protestant Salvation

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lol Cabo… see, that’s what you get for coming to a catholic answers forum.

Personally, I think you’re here for a reason!

Your personal relationship with CHrist is very commendable ! God loves us all and can come to us no matter where we are.

My personal relationship I have with Christ in Holy Communion (the Eucharist) that we catholics celebreate is the MAIN reason I love the Catholic church so much!!! That hug you wish to give Christ… I can experience it here and NOW ! in the eucharist (if you look into anything catholic…loook into the teaching on the eucharist!) .

Well, anyways… I understand your fristration and mind being like it’s been in a boxing match.

If you ever want to continue this question/answer look on a personal basis you can always email me : MichaelHowling@gmail.com

God bless!
 
MichaelHowling said:
lol Cabo… see, that’s what you get for coming to a catholic answers forum.

Personally, I think you’re here for a reason!

Your personal relationship with CHrist is very commendable ! God loves us all and can come to us no matter where we are.

My personal relationship I have with Christ in Holy Communion (the Eucharist) that we catholics celebreate is the MAIN reason I love the Catholic church so much!!! That hug you wish to give Christ… I can experience it here and NOW ! in the eucharist (if you look into anything catholic…loook into the teaching on the eucharist!) .

Well, anyways… I understand your fristration and mind being like it’s been in a boxing match.

If you ever want to continue this question/answer look on a personal basis you can always email me : MichaelHowling@gmail.com

Thanks 🙂 But now I have to ask you another question. How does the Eucharist do that for you? We take communion too but we take it like Jesus did in the Bible. It’s blessed and then we take it in remembrance of Him and what He did for us on the cross. It is symbolism, not literal. (To us of course. 🙂 ) I don’t understand at all how you can read that portion of scripture and take from it that when Jesus said, (and I’m paraphrasing here), “Take this and eat it. This is my body broken for you.”] That He meant, this is literally my body and literally my blood. :eek: That would be gross. Lol But seriously, can you tell me where that comes from?? Or is it just the different ways we interpret it? Cause you can’t honestly say that when your eating the wafer, your like, “Mmm, Jesus body!” Lol

I’m sorry, I hope you don’t think I’m mocking it cause I’m not. Just trying to add a little humor. 😊 Communion is very special to me too but I honestly don’t believe God made us to be a bunch of weirdos who eat their Savior’s body literally.

And Michael I’m only going to respond to your comments on this. Please no one send me 500 emails on it…it’s exhausting. (Oh unless you’re aidenbradypop since this is your thread…and you befriended the heathen! 😛 )

-Carin
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Cabo30 said:
How does the Eucharist do that for you? We take communion too but we take it like Jesus did in the Bible. It’s blessed and then we take it in remembrance of Him and what He did for us on the cross. It is symbolism, not literal. (To us of course. 🙂 ) I don’t understand at all how you can read that portion of scripture and take from it that when Jesus said, (and I’m paraphrasing here), “Take this and eat it. This is my body broken for you.”] That He meant, this is literally my body and literally my blood. :eek: **That would be gross. ** Lol
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That’s exactly what the disciples of Christ said, and then they left him over this hard saying. Christ was saddened by this, of course, and even asked Peter if he would leave him over this “gross” saying…but we know that Peter stayed with him, despite this “gross” command to eat his flesh and drink his blood…and became one of the great saints of his church.
 
brb3 said:
JonNC ----

What does Lutheran Church teach on Eucharist ?

1.) Valid … based upon Luther being a Catholic priest, and thus he able to pass/ confer a valid priesthood to his disciples ?
2). That it’s a true sacrament, and necessary for us .? …elsewise, we have “no life in us”
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What we teach is what Christ said: “This is my body, this is my blood”
  1. We believe that, by divine law, our presbuter ordinations are indeed valid, and therefore our sacraments.
  2. It is a true sacrament - instituted by Christ to which a promise of grace is attached. And yes, it is necessary for the believer.
Jon
 
aidanbradypop said:
Thanks for posting Jon!

My friend is a member of the LCMC branch. Much different that LCMS. They are not a confessional lutheran church and a very low church as well. They reject the ELCA, LCMS and us Catholics as well. He does believe in OSAS. I am not making a claim that all Lutherans do, but this one does. Sorry if I caused a misunderstanding. Peace be with you!
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I tried to respond to you PM, but your indox is full. I will try later.

Jon
 
You know what the first Christians were quite often referred to as ?? Cannibals! no joke.

The most powerful scripture passage we catholics use to help people understand this most beutiful teaching of the church (and by the way…this truth is at the center of our faith and it’s why the faith is soooo deep and beutiful in my mind) is John chapter 6 from verse from verse 30 to the end.

30 So they said to him, “What sign can you do, that we may see and believe in you? What can you do?
31 Our ancestors ate manna in the desert, as it is written: ‘He gave them bread from heaven to eat.’”
32 So Jesus said to them, “Amen, amen, I say to you, it was not Moses who gave the bread from heaven; my Father gives you the true bread from heaven.
33 For the bread of God is that which comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.”
34 So they said to him, “Sir, give us this bread always.”

35 Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me will never hunger, and whoever believes in me will never thirst.

36 But I told you that although you have seen me, you do not believe.

37 Everything that the Father gives me will come to me, and I will not reject anyone who comes to me,

38 because I came down from heaven not to do my own will but the will of the one who sent me.

39 And this is the will of the one who sent me, that I should not lose anything of what he gave me, but that I should raise it on the last day.

40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in him may have eternal life, and I shall raise him on the last day."

41 The Jews murmured about him because he said, “I am the bread that came down from heaven,”

42 and they said, “Is this not Jesus, the son of Joseph? Do we not know his father and mother? Then how can he say, ‘I have come down from heaven’?”

43 Jesus answered and said to them, "Stop murmuring among yourselves.

44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draw him, and I will raise him on the last day.

45 It is written in the prophets: ‘They shall all be taught by God.’ Everyone who listens to my Father and learns from him comes to me.

46 Not that anyone has seen the Father except the one who is from God; he has seen the Father.

47 Amen, amen, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life.

48 I am the bread of life.

49 Your ancestors ate the manna in the desert, but they died;

50 this is the bread that comes down from heaven so that one may eat it and not die.

51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven; whoever eats this bread will live forever; and the bread that I will give is my flesh for the life of the world."

52 The Jews quarreled among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?”
 
53 Jesus said to them, "Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you.

54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day.

55 For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink.

56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him.

57 Just as the living Father sent me and I have life because of the Father, so also the one who feeds on me will have life because of me.

58 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Unlike your ancestors who ate and still died, whoever eats this bread will live forever."

59 These things he said while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum.

60 Then many of his disciples who were listening said, “This saying is hard; who can accept it?”

61 Since Jesus knew that his disciples were murmuring about this, he said to them, "Does this shock you?

62 What if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before?

63 It is the spirit that gives life, while the flesh is of no avail. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and life.

64 But there are some of you who do not believe." Jesus knew from the beginning the ones who would not believe and the one who would betray him.

65 And he said, “For this reason I have told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by my Father.”

66 As a result of this, many of his disciples returned to their former way of life and no longer accompanied him.

67 Jesus then said to the Twelve, “Do you also want to leave?”

68 Simon Peter answered him, "Master, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.

69 We have come to believe and are convinced that you are the Holy One of God."

70 Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you twelve? Yet is not one of you a devil?”

71 He was referring to Judas, son of Simon the Iscariot; it was he who would betray him, one of the Twelve.
 
=Cabo30;10257445]
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Thanks 🙂 But now I have to ask you another question. How does the Eucharist do that for you? We take communion too but we take it like Jesus did in the Bible. It’s blessed and then we take it in remembrance of Him and what He did for us on the cross. It is symbolism, not literal. (To us of course. 🙂 ) I don’t understand at all how you can read that portion of scripture and take from it that when Jesus said, (and I’m paraphrasing here), “Take this and eat it. This is my body broken for you.”] That He meant, this is literally my body and literally my blood. :eek: That would be gross. Lol But seriously, can you tell me where that comes from?? Or is it just the different ways we interpret it? Cause you can’t honestly say that when your eating the wafer, your like, “Mmm, Jesus body!” Lol
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This is my body! Is is is. Where in Christ’s institution does He say, “This represents”, or “this symbolizes”? He says This is my body.

And He asks us to "do** this** (eat His body and drink His blood) in remembrance of Him.
 
Christ seems to be VERY clear about Him being quite literal in that we are to partake of Him in a literal sense. When the crowd said " this is a hard teaching…who can accept it" and left Him…CHrist didnt go running to them yelling "wait , wait… i didnt mean literal! I meant sybolic!: He let them go ! NOT ONLY THAT…he then turns to his closest friends the disciples and says : "Will you leave me too ? "

We know that Christ is the “lamb” of God! In the passover…the jews not only had to kill the lambs…they had to EAT them! It was part of the ritual.

Christ did not come to “destroy the law or the prophets” " I came to fullfill! "

Everything that happened in the old testiment …animal sacrifices, all the rules on how to eat, buy and sell, how to live…all of it was made to drill into the minds of Gods people the lessons that would be fullfilled later.

You also need to understand what “in rememberance” meant in the language and times back then.

When God required the passover and asked for it to be a perpetual memorial (like Christ did in the new testament) …God didn’t mean…sybolically redo what you are doing right now…like …go get a lamb pinyata and fill it with candy and cut it’s head off and give the kids the candy and say a prayer…

He meant…every year…go get a knife and take the life of a lamb and eat it’s flesh!

So when Christ says “to do this” in the new testament…it meant RE-present it! and by Him giving his authority to do such a thing…We catholic recieve the actual Jesus…body, blood, soul and divinity when we recieve communion from the priest.

You know how God uses marital language often in the scripture to symbolize our relationship to Him ? Well, in communion…our marriage is consumated! We are united to our Lord in a very special way!
 
I’m sorry but I don’t believe that. You cannot tell me that you are literally eating flesh in your mouth and drinking blood when you take communion. And how did Jesus give the disciples his actual flesh and blood if he hadn’t died yet? Also, he used a lot of symbolism in his teaching. Remember when he told the Jews to “destroy this temple, and in 3 days I will rebuild it”?? And they mocked him and were angry because they took it literally? He really was talking about himself. Symbolism. 🙂
 
scripturecatholic.com/the_eucharist.html

lol…when you have time. THis site is AWSOME…its all biblical and gives proof verse by verse in old testiment and new testiment

No, the physical bread and wine remain …but their essence changes…they become the body blood, soul and divinity of Jesus.

He was able to offer them his body and blood because God can step outside of time being an eternal being.

yes he did use symbolizm a lot…but in this particular instance he was not…I mean…read that scripture passage again! They’re saying " how can he give us his flesh"

49 Your ancestors ate the manna in the desert, but they died;

50 this is the bread that comes down from heaven so that one may eat it and not die.

51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven; whoever eats this bread will live forever; and the bread that I will give is my flesh for the life of the world."

52 The Jews quarreled among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?”

53 Jesus said to them, "Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you.

54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day.

55 For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink.

and when , like you they said :60 Then many of his disciples who were listening said, “This saying is hard; who can accept it?”

yea…it’s a hard one. It requires and act of faith…like most things Jesus asks of us.
 
Cabo30 said:
I’m sorry but I don’t believe that. You cannot tell me that you are literally eating flesh in your mouth and drinking blood when you take communion. And how did Jesus give the disciples his actual flesh and blood if he hadn’t died yet? Also, he used a lot of symbolism in his teaching. Remember when he told the Jews to “destroy this temple, and in 3 days I will rebuild it”?? And they mocked him and were angry because they took it literally? He really was talking about himself. Symbolism. 🙂
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So, you agree that Christ could be born of a virgin, He could be crucified and resurrected from the dead, that He could change water into wine, and feed the 5000 with acouple fish and loaves of bread, but when He says to His deciples in the upper room,
“Take and eat, this is my body.” this we must receive as symbolic?

As for me, yes I know that I am literally eating His body and drinking His blood, not only by faith, but also orally by the mouth. Now, clearly this is a mystery, how Christ can take mere bread and wine and make it such that I am eating His body and blood, but no moreso a mystery than thethings I mentioned above.

Jon
Jon
 
And in the end…if jesus says a rooster can lay an egg (males dont do that…) … i’m not questioning…I’m getting some butter and a frying pan!

Also, on that website i posted…it shows quotes from the early church fathers. Those that knew or lived during or immediatly after the apostles. The teaching on the real presence of the eucharist during those begining days of the church show clearly…they understood this teaching.

It’s why the first christians were called " cannibals’

Cabo! That hug you want to give Christ can start now!

When you come to catholic mass… well, compare it to revelations that describes heavnly worship: candles, incense, vestments, alter, people from of all creeds (catholic means universal) and …“the lamb as though slain”
 
Cabo30 said:
IAnd how did Jesus give the disciples his actual flesh and blood if he hadn’t died yet?
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I find it easier to believe that Jesus, who is God, could do this than it is to believe that God created the entire universe out of nothing.

If you can believe in Creation (a wondrous and miraculous event, to be sure!!), then you can surely believe that God could give us his actual flesh and blood, yes?
 
Cabo30 said:
IAlso, he used a lot of symbolism in his teaching. Remember when he told the Jews to “destroy this temple, and in 3 days I will rebuild it”?? And they mocked him and were angry because they took it literally? He really was talking about himself. Symbolism. 🙂
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Sure. Symbolism is a very Catholic concept.

But not all things are symbolic only.

Surely you have heard of some rather educated folks who claim that Jesus’ resurrection was symbolic only? They say, just like you: Remember Jesus talked symbolically. Therefore, his claims to be resurrected from the dead were only claims of a symbolic resurrection.

You can’t claim that since Jesus spoke symbolically at times that this means that everything he said was symbolic. Unless you want to put aside a literal resurrection. :eek:
 
wow PR… " put aside a literal ressurection" …that’s a great way to take down the “he’s speaking symbolically” argument I hear a lot.

cool!

Michael

Ok Carin. I see you’ve signed off. Let me know what ya think.

You can always email me: through CAF

or message me here.

Mike
 
Cabo30 said:
Ephesians 2:8 says, “For it is by GRACE you have been saved, through faith, and this not of yourselves. It is a GIFT from God, NOT by works so that no one can boast.”

I emphasized those words to make a point. We are saved because Jesus died on the cross for our sins. He paid the ultimate penalty once and for all for everyone who believes. That is it. We can not earn our salvation by going to church or doing anything else that might constitute as “good works”.
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It is very Catholic of you to say this. 👍
Cabo30 said:
If you believe in Jesus Christ and have asked Him to come into your life and forgive your sins then you are saved! Now, you can choose to walk away from that but ultimately if you accept it, you are going to heaven.
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These statements represent a modern innovation that cannot be supported by the Scripture or by the faith of the Church. They are contrary to what the Apostles belived and taught.
Cabo30 said:
Code: 
Which brings me to the subject of confession.  When Jesus died on the cross there was a great earthquake that tore the massive and thick temple curtain in two.  This curtain separated the holy of holies from the people.  Only the priests were allowed to enter and then would come out and absolve the people of their sins.  When this curtains was torn in two, God was saying it is finished!  Jesus was the final mediator between us and God.  We can now go directly to Him to repent.
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Yes, of course! This is what happens in the Sacrament of reconciliation. 👍
Cabo30 said:
Confession is an Old Testament doctrine that holds people in bondage and is frankly a slap in the face to what Jesus did on the cross.
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No, Cabo, you have been misinformed. The Sacrament of Reconciliation is not found in the OT, because it is based upon Jesus and His identity as a priest after the order of Melchizedech. This type of priesthood had nothing to do with OT confessions of sins, which were all done to priests after the order of Aaron, in the Levitical system.

I am glad you are here at CAF Cabo, because it is possible that you have been given a great many misunderstandings about the Apostolic faith.
 
This has become a wonderful thread! Great points being expressed
 
Unrepented mortal sin at time of death = a one way ticket to Hell

That is true for everyone–it is true for those who never hear of Jesus–it is true for Protestants who believe in Once Saved Always Saved–it is true for Catholics who think that they hardly ever mortally sin–and it is true for Catholiocs who believe in close to universalism–that either all or close to all people are save.

I truly do believe that mortal sin is the one thing that most people can’t face as true.

The saints in their writings believe that unrepented mortal sin results in Hell. Many of the saints worry much about their own salvation and warn everyone to work it out with fear and trembling.

Tell me–why is it that people won’t listen to the saints?
 
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