Questions on the claims of Lutherans

[rfournier103]

1] The Roman Pontiff claims for himself [in the first place] that by divine right he is [supreme] above all bishops and pastors [in all Christendom].

2] Secondly, he adds also that by divine right he has both swords, i.e., the authority also of bestowing kingdoms [enthroning and deposing kings, regulating secular dominions etc.].

3] And thirdly, he says that to believe this is necessary for salvation. And for these reasons the Roman bishop calls himself [and boasts that he is] the vicar of Christ on earth.

4] These three articles we hold to be false, godless, tyrannical, and [quite] pernicious to the Church.

Bold is mine, and I agree with JonNC that # 2 is moot at this time. I (of course) must strenuously disagree with # 4.

I don’t know if it has ever been asserted that belief in the validity of the Office of the Vicar of Christ is required for salvation. Certainly not asserted today…

We all know of the Primacy of Peter, and Apostolic Succession, but I’m curious my own self as to why these are rejected by so many. The Lutheran side may be a good place to start…

What were the Scriptural objections? I’m concious of (if not an expert on) the Catholic defense of the Vicar of Christ.

 

[MaryT777]

Very easily.

As I have come to learn, the MAIN separation is AUTHORITY. The Catholic Church has it’s Doctrine on Apostolic Succession, the Lutherans have theirs, and our views on how the Reformation has affected the validity of Sacraments, ordinations, etc… differ accordingly.

Truth is a broad statement.

Christ is Risen, the Bible is the inerrant Word of God, there is but ONE God, the 10 Commandments, etc… All of it TRUTH. All of it shared between Lutherans and Catholics. That was just five examples. There are hundreds of others.

I have spent the last couple of weeks involved in a real donnybrook about Sola Fide in another thread, and I have NO desire to get into that. I’m tired…

But if Catholic/Lutheran debate is your thing, then I think it begins and ends with Papal Authority. After all; why make this more complicated than it has to be?

As a Latin Catholic of the Roman Rite, I believe, affirm, and attest that the Catholic Church has the 100% Truth (near as that can be determined). If I did not believe so, I would not be Catholic. You can be sure of that.

Does that mean other Christian believers have NO TRUTH AT ALL??? No way Jose’. To one degree or another they all have some Truth. Of course, some more than others…

I advise in THIS case, discussion and dialogue; not debate.

The LCMS Pastor friend I have agrees authority is the “key” issue.

 

[JonNC]

Bold is mine, and I agree with JonNC that # 2 is moot at this time. I (of course) must strenuously disagree with # 4.

I don’t know if it has ever been asserted that belief in the validity of the Office of the Vicar of Christ is required for salvation. Certainly not asserted today…

We all know of the Primacy of Peter, and Apostolic Succession, but I’m curious my own self as to why these are rejected by so many. The Lutheran side may be a good place to start…

What were the Scriptural objections? I’m concious of (if not an expert on) the Catholic defense of the Vicar of Christ.

So as not to copy and paste a lot, from On The Power and Primacy of the Pope:

bookofconcord.org/treatise.php
Scripture - paragraphs 7-11
Councils - par. 12-13
ECF’s. - par. 14- 20

Jon

 

[EvangelCatholic]

You need to be very careful here. The thread topic “How can Lutherans claim they have the truth” implies that they do not have the truth. In reality they have much truth, but from the Catholic perspective, they are missing the fullness of truth. Also, I believe that they adhere to all seven sacraments, though I am not sure about “Holy Orders” as there are no Lutheran priests.

Yes, we have our differences, but I would suggest that you have a lot to learn. Listen to JonC and others. They will give you an honest rendering of Lutheran beliefs. It’s not as simple as some would like to make it, including the “faith alone” issue which others have adapted and taken to extremes.

Lutheran Confessions refer to ordination as a sacrament of the laying on of hands. Lutherans who follow apostolic succession refer to the ministry of deacon, priest and bishop.

 

[SteveVH]

Lutheran Confessions refer to ordination as a sacrament of the laying on of hands. Lutherans who follow apostolic succession refer to the ministry of deacon, priest and bishop.

Apostolic succession from who? Luther? He was never a bishop.

 

[bben15]

You need to be very careful here. The thread topic “How can Lutherans claim they have the truth” implies that they do not have the truth. In reality they have much truth, but from the Catholic perspective, they are missing the fullness of truth. Also, I believe that they adhere to all seven sacraments, though I am not sure about “Holy Orders” as there are no Lutheran priests.

Yes, we have our differences, but I would suggest that you have a lot to learn. Listen to JonC and others. They will give you an honest rendering of Lutheran beliefs. It’s not as simple as some would like to make it, including the “faith alone” issue which others have adapted and taken to extremes.

I apologize. Perhaps I should have worded it differently.

 

[JonNC]

Apostolic succession from who? Luther? He was never a bishop.

In the era of the reformation, Scandinavian bishops moved with particular national churches into Lutheranism. In modern times, Lutherans have reclaimed succession through Anglicans in Europe and America, the Catholic view of Anglican validity notwithstanding. Otherwise, Lutherans have relied on presbyter ordination, citing Catholic use of the same in centuries preceding the Reformation

Jon

 

[JonNC]

I apologize. Perhaps I should have worded it differently.

No worries. That said, I really appreciate Steve and the way he dialogues.

Let me know if I have answered your questions.

Jon

 

[SteveVH]

In the era of the reformation, Scandinavian bishops moved with particular national churches into Lutheranism. In modern times, Lutherans have reclaimed succession through Anglicans in Europe and America, the Catholic view of Anglican validity notwithstanding. Otherwise, Lutherans have relied on presbyter ordination, citing Catholic use of the same in centuries preceding the Reformation

Jon

Wow. That sounds like a topic for its own thread. I don’t think I would have the energy to go there at this point.

Thanks, Jon.

 

[JonNC]

The LCMS Pastor friend I have agrees authority is the “key” issue.

It is for me, as well.

Jon

 

[bben15]

No worries. That said, I really appreciate Steve and the way he dialogues.

Let me know if I have answered your questions.

Jon

Yes, my question has been answered. Thank you.

 

[JonNC]

Yes, my question has been answered. Thank you.

Good. If there’s anything else, there are a number of good Lutherans here

Jon

 

[SteveVH]

I apologize. Perhaps I should have worded it differently.

No need to apologize. We all tend to over simplify. I am constantly, it seems, correcting my fellow Catholics in my parish when they start spouting off about “the Protestants”. Since Luther was the first of the “Reformers” much of what we see today in other Protestant faith traditions gets pinned on him unjustly.

The more I read from Lutherans, the sadder it makes me that we are not yet one.

 

[MaryT777]

What I have discovered from LCMS and WELS, but more from LCMS, is that although they might say they are Sola Scriptura, they are really not. I’ve found that the LCMS is more Prima Scriptura, while WELS is more of a Sola Scriptura in practice.

But that is just my fallible opinion,

My personal experience from taking a :Basics of the Faith: Class is that the LCMS there
taught unequivocally they are SOLA scriptura and reject all authority that does not coincide directly with scripture.

Thus the AntiChrist doctrine was taught by the Scriptures in their two year Bible study
with Today’s Light Bible. They also claimed the man in the office “could be” but “is not necessarily” anti Christ as well

Luther’s own words were also quoted often. More so than I expected. (Not just on “reformation” day)

 

[rfournier103]

So as not to copy and paste a lot, from On The Power and Primacy of the Pope:

bookofconcord.org/treatise.php
Scripture - paragraphs 7-11
Councils - par. 12-13
ECF’s. - par. 14- 20

Jon

That’s quite a document, and there’s definately alot there. Bookmarked and will be referred to often.

Thank you.

 

[MaryT777]

The Lutherans I know focus on Jesus at the center and the cross. Once I was visiting awhile I came to see that.

Therefore it’s time once again for me to state a great book about what Lutherans believe is by Daniel Preus.
“Why I am a Lutheran, Jesus at the Center.”

It’s fabulous for anyone. I just want some commission now LOL!

 

[Eric_Hilbert]

I apologize. Perhaps I should have worded it differently.

Yeah, we do need to watch how we word things.
Thread re-titled.

 

[bben15]

Yeah, we do need to watch how we word things.
Thread re-titled.

Thank you for re-titling it.

 

[rfournier103]

8] I. Luke 22:25. Christ expressly prohibits lordship among the apostles [that no apostle should have any supremacy over the rest]. For this was the very question, namely, that when Christ spake of His passion, they were disputing who should be at the head, and as it were the vicar of the absent Christ. There Christ reproves this error of the apostles and teaches that there shall not be lordship or superiority among them, but that the apostles should be sent forth as equals to the common ministry of the Gospel. Accordingly, He says: The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them, and they that exercise authority upon them are called benefactors, but ye shall not be so; but he that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger; and he that is chief, as he that doth serve. The antithesis here shows [By holding these matters against one another, one sees] that lordship [among the apostles] is disapproved.

Luke 22:24-26 ~ Then an argument broke out among them about which of them should be regarded as the greatest. He said to them, “The kings of the Gentiles lord it over them and those in authority over them are addressed as ‘Benefactors’; but among you it shall not be so. Rather, let the greatest among you be as the youngest, and the leader as the servant.”

I do not know when the title was first used, but one of the Pope’s titles is “Servant of the Servants of God.” His role is that of teacher, not ‘master’.

Luke 22:31-32 ~ *“Simon, Simon, behold Satan has demanded to sift all of you like wheat, but I have prayed that your own faith may not fail; and once you have turned back, you must strengthen your brothers.”
*Jesus’ prayer for Simon’s faith and the commission to strengthen his brothers anticipates the post-resurrectional prominence of Peter in the first half of Acts, where he appears as the spokesman for the Christian community and the one who begins the mission to the Gentiles (Acts 10-11).

Bible quotes and footnotes from www.vatican.va/.

Peter denies Jesus. If one of MY friends did that to ME he would be the least amongst MY friends… and Jesus commands Peter to strengthen his brothers (fellow Apostles). Why not tell all of them to be strong? That seems to put Peter in a position of leadership, or at least a greater responsability than the rest. I have actually never read that passage in the context of Catholic/Papal Apologetics until today; but thank you JonNC for steering me in that direction! A very good nugget, indeed!

 

[JonNC]

I do not know when the title was first used, but one of the Pope’s titles is “Servant of the Servants of God.” His role is that of teacher, not ‘master’.

This we have clearly witnessed in a string of modern-day popes, from John XXIII to Benedict XVI. I see no reason for that not to be continued in Francis.

Jon