Questions on the claims of Lutherans

[EvangelCatholic]

In the era of the reformation, Scandinavian bishops moved with particular national churches into Lutheranism. In modern times, Lutherans have reclaimed succession through Anglicans in Europe and America, the Catholic view of Anglican validity notwithstanding. Otherwise, Lutherans have relied on presbyter ordination, citing Catholic use of the same in centuries preceding the Reformation

Jon

Keep in mind that episcopacy is the Lutheran norm worldwide now.
porvoochurches.org/

 

[rfournier103]

II. Matt. 18:2. The same is taught by the parable when Christ in the same dispute concerning the kingdom places a little child in the midst, signifying that among ministers there is not to be sovereignty, just as a child neither takes nor seeks sovereignty for himself.

Matt. 18:1-5 ~ *****At that time the disciples approached Jesus and said, “Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?” He called a child over, placed it in their midst, and said, “Amen, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven. Whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. And whoever receives one child such as this in my name receives me.”

*This discourse of the fourth book of the gospel is often called the “church order” discourse, but it lacks most of the considerations usually connected with church order, such as various offices in the church and the duties of each, and deals principally with the relations that must obtain among the members of the church. Beginning with the warning that greatness in the kingdom of heaven is measured not by rank or power but by childlikeness (Matthew 18:1-5), it deals with the care that the disciples must take not to cause the little ones to sin or to neglect them if they stray from the community (Matthew 18:6-14), the correction of members who sin (Matthew 18:15-18), the efficacy of the prayer of the disciples because of the presence of Jesus (Matthew 18:19-20), and the forgiveness that must be repeatedly extended to sinful members who repent (Matthew 18:21-35).

*The initiative is taken not by Jesus as in the Marcan parallel (Mark 9:33-34) but by the disciples. Kingdom of heaven: this may mean the kingdom in its fullness, i.e., after the parousia and the final judgment. But what follows about causes of sin, church discipline, and forgiveness, all dealing with the present age, suggests that the question has to do with rank also in the church, where the kingdom is manifested here and now, although only partially and by anticipation; see the notes on Matthew 3:2; 4:17.

*Become like children: the child is held up as a model for the disciples not because of any supposed innocence of children but because of their complete dependence on, and trust in, their parents. So must the disciples be, in respect to God.

*Matthew 10:40 ~ “Whoever receives you receives me, and whoever receives me receives the one who sent me.” (All who receive the disciples of Jesus receive him, and God who sent him, and will be rewarded accordingly.)

*One of these little ones: the thought passes from the child of Matthew 18:2-4 to the disciples, little ones because of their becoming like children. It is difficult to know whether this is a designation of all who are disciples or of those who are insignificant in contrast to others, e.g., the leaders of the community. Since apart from this chapter the designation little ones occurs in Matthew only in Matthew 10:42 where it means disciples as such, that is its more likely meaning here. Who believe in me: since discipleship is impossible without at least some degree of faith, this further specification seems superfluous. However, it serves to indicate that the warning against causing a little one to sin is principally directed against whatever would lead such a one to a weakening or loss of faith. The Greek verb skandalizein, here translated causes . . . to sin, means literally “causes to stumble”; what the stumbling is depends on the context. It is used of falling away from faith in Matthew 13:21. According to the better reading of Mark 9:42, in me is a Matthean addition to the Marcan source. It would be better . . . depths of the sea: cf Mark 9:42.

Bold added by me. Bible quotes and footnotes from www.vatican.va/.

This seems to me to be more of an exhortation to have the faith of a little child, rather than apologetics for disproving the Office of the Supreme Pontiff.

The parallel in **Mark 9:33-37 **~ *They came to Capernaum and, once inside the house, he began to ask them, “What were you arguing about on the way?” But they remained silent. They had been discussing among themselves on the way who was the greatest. Then he sat down, called the Twelve, and said to them, “If anyone wishes to be first, he shall be the last of all and the servant of all.” Taking a child he placed it in their midst, and putting his arms around it he said to them, "Whoever receives one child such as this in my name, receives me; and whoever receives me, receives not me but the one who sent me. "
[33-37] Mark probably intends this incident and the sayings that follow as commentary on the disciples’ lack of understanding (Mark 9:32). Their role in Jesus’ work is one of service, especially to the poor and lowly. Children were the symbol Jesus used for the anawim, the poor in spirit, the lowly in the Christian community.

Bold and underlined added by me. Bible quotes and footnotes from www.vatican.va/.
I don’t think in any of the selected objections of the Lutherans there is a serious challenge to the Supreme Pontiff. What I DO see is some Biblical interpetation… Their leaders interpret, just as ours do.

 

[rfournier103]

9] III. John 20:21. Christ sends forth His disciples on an equality, without any distinction [so that no one of them was to have more or less power than any other], when He says: As My Father hath sent Me, even so send I you. [These words are clear and plain:] He says that He sends them individually in the same manner as He Himself was sent; hence He grants to no one a prerogative or lordship above the rest.

In John 20:21; (Jesus) said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you.” I don’t see where Jesus sent them individually. In this case doesn’t “you” mean “ALL OF YOU”? They were sent as a group, as a King would send his army. As a whole; not one by one. There is no reference to authority among the Apostles either way… With Jesus present, they are ALL subordinate to Him. How could the Lutherans use this as a prooftext against the Pope? It doesn’t make any sense… I don’t understand…

 

[rfournier103]

This we have clearly witnessed in a string of modern-day popes, from John XXIII to Benedict XVI. I see no reason for that not to be continued in Francis.

Jon

Agreed! I’ve even heard Pius XII wasn’t that bad, either…

 

[pablope]

As a Lutheran, Vicar of Christ doesn’t “work” for me. I see the Bishop of Rome, along with the other patriarchs as equals. That’s what the early Church tells us in Nicea. The Bishop of Rome, while equal to the others, holds a special primacy of honor within the Church.

Jon

Hi…Jon…are you home recovering now? (I do hope you are not in the hospital……still)

Anyway…having primacy…already means they are not of equals.

If Christianity had to speak on an issue…promulgate something of importance for the world…if they are all equal…who would be the spokesman for them and for the Church?

Who do you think should speak for them and for the Church?

 

[benjohnson]

This seems to me to be more of an exhortation to have the faith of a little child, rather than apologetics for disproving the Office of the Supreme Pontiff.

I try never to lose sight of that! We Lutherans should spend more time rejoicing with Catholics in the Gospel - arguing over church governance and (frankly) esoteric views on Justification is important but not as important as the emergency we all face not only in our own souls but in proclaiming the Gospel to the world.

 

[SteveVH]

I try never to lose sight of that! We Lutherans should spend more time rejoicing with Catholics in the Gospel - arguing over church governance and (frankly) esoteric views on Justification is important but not as important as the emergency we all face not only in our own souls but in proclaiming the Gospel to the world.

Isn’t that the truth!

 

[rfournier103]

I try never to lose sight of that! We Lutherans should spend more time rejoicing with Catholics in the Gospel - arguing over church governance and (frankly) esoteric views on Justification is important but not as important as the emergency we all face not only in our own souls but in proclaiming the Gospel to the world.

Amen! The world needs Christ’s message more today than ever.

I usually explain the papacy to most non-Catholics, end even some Catholics, as being like your own congregation’s pastor. Except the pope’s lineage goes all the way back to Jesus, and he’s the pastor of a vastly bigger Church.

Patrons of Catholic Answers Forums usually require a more intelligent answer, but for your average Joe, that usually explains it.

But if we are ever to unite as One Body of Christ, it MUST start with the Gospel. This world is so disgustingly evil, it is more than the Catholic Church, Lutherans, Baptists, Evangelicals, or Fundamentalists can defeat alone.

 

[batman1973]

Amen! The world needs Christ’s message more today than ever.

I usually explain the papacy to most non-Catholics, end even some Catholics, as being like your own congregation’s pastor. Except the pope’s lineage goes all the way back to Jesus, and he’s the pastor of a vastly bigger Church.

Patrons of Catholic Answers Forums usually require a more intelligent answer, but for your average Joe, that usually explains it.

But if we are ever to unite as One Body of Christ, it MUST start with the Gospel. This world is so disgustingly evil, it is more than the Catholic Church, Lutherans, Baptists, Evangelicals, or Fundamentalists can defeat alone.

Amen to that!

 

[JonNC]

=pablope;10948762]Hi…Jon…are you home recovering now? (I do hope you are not in the hospital……still)

Oh, yes. I have been home for about 4 weeks, going to rehab 3 times a week, and working on my recovery at home. Thanks for asking. My CAF “family” has been such a blessing during this time.

Anyway…having primacy…already means they are not of equals.

Analogy: last year I was one of a team of four 5th grade teachers. One of us has particularly good skills at reading instruction. She’s our go-to colleague for reading instruction and ideas. She has a primacy among us that we recognize, even though that primacy is not one of special authority.

If Christianity had to speak on an issue…promulgate something of importance for the world…if they are all equal…who would be the spokesman for them and for the Church?

How is it determined who the leader of the USCCB is? Did the bishops somehow choose then Archbishop now Cardinal Dolan? But choosing a spokesman is a minor issue when the significant concern is does one of the bishops have universal jurisdiction, etc., and what is the scriptural and Tradition evidence for it.

Who do you think should speak for them and for the Church?

LCMS President (Bishop) Matthew Harrison, of course.

Seriously, I actually think the pope is the logical Bishop to speak for the Church. But then, I am a western Christian. Those of the east may disagree.

Jon

 

[Bklynguy]

Where do they base their belief in “faith alone?” I cannot find it in the Bible.

This is a very good question and a very interesting claim…

You see then how that by works a man is justified, and NOT by faith only. James 2:24

(emphasis mine)

 

[JonNC]

This is a very good question and a very interesting claim…

You see then how that by works a man is justified, and NOT by faith only. James 2:24

(emphasis mine)

And no Lutheran would deny that, for the regenerate, good works are a requirement, a necessity, a command of Christ. Good works are not something we can choose to do or not do. From the Lutheran Confessions:

. 8] 3. We believe, teach, and confess also that all men, but those especially who are born again and renewed by the Holy Ghost, are bound to do good works.

9] 4. In this sense the words necessary, shall, and must are employed correctly and in a Christian manner also with respect to the regenerate, and in no way are contrary to the form of sound words and speech.

10] 5. Nevertheless, by the words mentioned, necessitas, necessarium, necessity and necessary, if they be employed concerning the regenerate, not coercion, but only due obedience is to be understood, which the truly believing, so far as they are regenerate, render not from coercion or the driving of the Law, but from a voluntary spirit; because they are no more under the Law, but under grace, Rom. 6:14; 7:6; 8:14.

11] 6. Accordingly, we also believe, teach, and confess that when it is said: The regenerate do good works from a free spirit, this is not to be understood as though it is at the option of the regenerate man to do or to forbear doing good when he wishes, and that he can nevertheless retain faith if he intentionally perseveres in sins.

In the bolded, “bound” means more than certain to, it also means required to. Failure to do the commands of Christ is sin, and repeated, unrepented sin can lead to loss of saving faith.

Jon

 

[Peter_J]

Hello. I was recently reading about the Missouri-Synod and the WELS Lutheran denominations, and I saw that they believe the Papacy is the anti-Christ. They claim that the Catholic Church has errors in its beliefs and that Protestantism is the Truth. But, where do they base these claims? Martin Luther claimed there are only two sacraments, Baptism and the Eucharist, when in reality, all seven sacraments are supported biblically. Where do they base their belief in “faith alone?” I cannot find it in the Bible.

Extremely broad subject.

You could say that.

 

[SteveVH]

Analogy: last year I was one of a team of four 5th grade teachers. One of us has particularly good skills at reading instruction. She’s our go-to colleague for reading instruction and ideas. She has a primacy among us that we recognize, even though that primacy is not one of special authority.

But Jon, Peter wasn’t recognized as having primacy because he held some special talent or was particularly adept in some discipline. It was Peter, and Peter alone who received the keys to the kingdom of God.

Now if your associate, alone, had been give the keys to the school, then she would control when the doors were opened and when they were closed. The giving of the keys to her would show an element of trust and authority that was not held by the other four. If she is not there to open the door, then the meeting is canceled.

 

[Bklynguy]

And no Lutheran would deny that, for the regenerate, good works are a requirement, a necessity, a command of Christ. Good works are not something we can choose to do or not do. From the Lutheran Confessions:

In the bolded, “bound” means more than certain to, it also means required to. Failure to do the commands of Christ is sin, and repeated, unrepented sin can lead to loss of saving faith.

Jon

Very interesting–thanks for the post. This really, then, doesn’t seem too far away from Catholicism.

 

[JonNC]

=SteveVH;10951238]But Jon, Peter wasn’t recognized as having primacy because he held some special talent or was particularly adept in some discipline. It was Peter, and Peter alone who received the keys to the kingdom of God.

It is an inference that the keys, since St. Peter received them initially, that they were given only to him. There is no reason to make that inference, scripturally or via Tradition. The keys were intended for the Church, the entire Church.

Now if your associate, alone, had been give the keys to the school, then she would control when the doors were opened and when they were closed. The giving of the keys to her would show an element of trust and authority that was not held by the other four. If she is not there to open the door, then the meeting is canceled.

Again, there is no reason to infer that only St. Peter, whether it be at Rome or at Antioch, controls the “doors”. The lutheran confessions contend that while Peter received the keys for the Church, all of the Church has them. Our communion is not alone in that perception.

Jon

 

[EvangelCatholic]

It is an inference that the keys, since St. Peter received them initially, that they were given only to him. There is no reason to make that inference, scripturally or via Tradition. The keys were intended for the Church, the entire Church.

Again, there is no reason to infer that only St. Peter, whether it be at Rome or at Antioch, controls the “doors”. The lutheran confessions contend that while Peter received the keys for the Church, all of the Church has them. Our communion is not alone in that perception.
Jon

Vatican can pave the way in recognizing these opportunities for unity. Francis, will lead us!

 

[JonNC]

Vatican can pave the way in recognizing these opportunities for unity. Francis, will lead us!

Meaning?

Jon

 

[EvangelCatholic]

Meaning?

Jon

The Lord be with you.
And with thy spirit.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Hello. I was recently reading about the Missouri-Synod and the WELS Lutheran denominations, and I saw that they believe the Papacy is the anti-Christ. They claim that the Catholic Church has errors in its beliefs and that Protestantism is the Truth. But, where do they base these claims? Martin Luther claimed there are only two sacraments, Baptism and the Eucharist, when in reality, all seven sacraments are supported biblically. Where do they base their belief in “faith alone?” I cannot find it in the Bible.

God bless you for answering my question.

This proclamation made by the Lutherans have opened the flood gates for evangelical’s to twist and pronounce all kinds of negativity towards the magesterium, which still goes on today.

Here is what I do not understand about Lutheranism and protestants in general including the Orthodox Church.

If these claim to hold to the Truth. Why do you have to attack the Catholic Church? Does not Truth stand alone? Truth serves no purpose to attack another’s doctrine or belief’s. Now if you do not possess the fullness of Truth, I can see why all of the above have made it their business to attack the Roman Catholic Church.

Can the Lutheran’s, Orthodox’s and protestantism stand on it’s own merit without ever having to attack the Roman Catholic Church?

What is the bases or the fact for the Lutheran doctrine to possess such negative attacks on the Magesterium of the Catholic Church in the first place?

What purpose did it serve and what purpose does it serve now?

I have to stand with the OP here?