Questions to Atheists about God-of-the-Gaps

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Blue_Horizon said:
Testimony is by its very nature a prudential and probable source of knowledge like most things in the past or at a distance when we were not actually there ourselves.

I suggest the main way we know, and accept much of the coercion of testifying artefacts still relies on human testimony about those artefacts.

There were many different types of partial levitation reported.

That’s the problem, you are attempting to replace a mass of varied eye-witness details and testimony…
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Exactly. Just as we agreed earlier. If we have eye witness accounts from people we could describe as reliable witnesses then that can be taken as very strong evidence indeed that what was described actually took place.
 
Bradski said:
. . . If we have eye witness accounts from people we could describe as reliable witnesses then that can be taken as very strong evidence indeed that what was described actually took place.
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The “we” is interesting.

I suppose that the greater the number of witnesses, the greater the likelihood that this “we” will accept something as truth.
However, all I need is one witness, who perceives and understands the totality of evidence in my relationship with reality.

This “I” as a participant in, and the common experience of all those who form the “we”, how is it that he/she exists? From what Ground does this knower-knowing spring into being?
 
Bradski said:
Exactly. Just as we agreed earlier. If we have eye witness accounts from people we could describe as reliable witnesses then that can be taken as very strong evidence indeed that what was described actually took place.
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The question is: “how do we separate the reliable eye witnesses from the unreliable ones”? It is a well-know phenomenon that 10 different eye witnesses will provide 11 different versions of the event they all “witnessed”.

Some years ago a company deliberately printed Christmas cards with a typo on them. Almost no one found the misprint. People see what they expect to see.
 
Bradski said:
Exactly. Just as we agreed earlier. If we have eye witness accounts from people we could describe as reliable witnesses then that can be taken as very strong evidence indeed that what was described actually took place.
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I am not vying for canonization, to clear things up, just to witness to my Christian Catholic Faith.
Sometime between the years l980-84, I wrote to Alan Landsburg Productions, Los Angeles Ca, the producers of the TV show, :That’s Incredible" Cathy Crosby, Fran Tarkington, and John Davidson were all M.Cs. I noticed what I believed were paranormal activity with some of the participants, although I didn’t think they were aware of it. eg. a man with only and eve socket reading a driver’s license number, another reading licenses in wallets, still in pockets, a house in N.J. covered with a mysterious coating no one could remove, an old man diving from a 90 foot tower into 6 inches of water, belly-first and walk away unhurt ( I could do a belly whopper of the side of a pool and hurt myself). So I suspected paranormal activity . I wrote (and I am looking at their response on a post card before me) that they could perform a simple exorcism using the Name of Jesus. They responded that not during the present shows, but in the future, and they would notify me when they would. I said that it is within the competence of any Christian to do the exorcism. They never got back with me. Sometime later during the ending of one of the TV series, Cathy Crosby announced that they performed an exorcism, and the audience would be surprised at what happened. Then a surprising thing happened, they cancelled the whole TV show. I learned that they were having trouble on the set, they were being sued, one, or more of the people involved in driving through a fiery tunnel got injured. To me it was no surprise. This was only the begining of my encounter with the devil.

I was levitated in the presence of the men I worked with in my shop 11-15 aprox. This levitation had nothing to do the the levitation experience by St. Theresa of Avilla My levitation wasn’t a holy levitation. It was a result of a “supposedly” trick. Two friends said they could lift my l65 lbs with four finger, one man on each side, placing two fingers under my knee joint, and two under arm pits. The two men were of small stature. I had a fitness studio at one time, and I know what l65 lbs feels like. They sate me down in a chair and proceeded with a ritual of pushing down on my head (like comressing a spring) placing the fingers, and lifted me up. I felt no force of gravity, and felt like a feather. I sensed there was something wrong, I was a subject of paranormal activity. Convinced, I suggested to the men to pray with me silently, Father in the Name of Jesus expell this deceiving spirit." They then proceeded to lift me again, and the same thing happened. One of the men stated that he could have lifter me to the ceiling, I was so light. I was really perplexed, but still convinced I was right. What was I doing wrong? Then the moment of inspiration! Make an open profession of Faith. I did and said the same prayer but openly so that every one could hear it. I sat down in the chair, the men proceeded. but this time they couldn’t lift me, several tried with the same result. My bottom slid across the chair from sheer force but that was it. ( continued next post)
 
continuation from above post)

The devil is astute, but perverted, and he will always employ a gimmick to throw his subjects off, and hide his identity for good reasons. (You won’t believe this but lightening almost blew my computer modem out, I already lost two of them, my wife and I heard a familiar pop as I was explaining gimmicks, but God spared it) If the devil was to expose himself, do the math, then he would verify the purpose of Jesus Christ’s mission, to destroy his works, and to the existence of Jesus Christ, God-man. This was the purpose of His mission, to liberate mankind from Satan’s rule over men. And this is from Divine Revelation, one of the deposits of Faith, Holy Scripture. When I was lifted, I lost all the effects of feeling gravity’s effects on my body, I felt no weight. When I shared this event with another Christian, all that person did, was not to cross examine me, or use science, to prove me wrong, but to quote “Occam’s Razor” and refer me to a link that showed a similar demonstration being performed, as if that explained anything.🤷: You can’t seem to win. I was asked by one of the men “Why do you suppose the devil would do this” I said, if he can convince people that they had some undiscovered superrnatural power, like telekenisis, clairvoyance, astro-projection, Ouija board prediction, false-prophesy etc. Then he could get them to violate the First Commandment “Thou shalt not have any false gods before me” A sin against religion some call it, like all superstition is. If you believe wrong, the devil will enhance your wrong belief by using his powers. The devil can not violate natural laws unless God grants him that power, for God’s own purposes, and I can see why He allowed the devil to use me, so I could manifest the truth of my Christian Faith. I have many more such experiences effecting me physically, and mentally, but God redeems me from all of them. I am not allowed to go into more of them in the forum for good reasons. You can choose to believe me, or not, I am of sound mind. I share this with you for your sake, and not mine. I’m at peace with it, and the only person whose opinion of me I am concerned with, is God’s You see Bradski, this is where I am coming from.
 
ynotzap said:
I am not vying for canonization, to clear things up, just to witness to my Christian Catholic Faith.
Sometime between the years l980-84, I wrote to Alan Landsburg Productions, Los Angeles Ca, the producers of the TV show, :That’s Incredible" Cathy Crosby, Fran Tarkington, and John Davidson were all M.Cs. I noticed what I believed were paranormal activity with some of the participants, although I didn’t think they were aware of it. eg. a man with only one eye socket reading a driver’s license number, another reading licenses in wallets, still in pockets, a house in N.J. covered with a mysterious coating no one could remove, an old man diving from a 90 foot tower into 6 inches of water, belly-first and walk away unhurt ( I could do a belly whopper of the side of a pool and hurt myself). So I suspected paranormal activity . I wrote (and I am looking at their response on a post card before me) that they could perform a simple exorcism using the Name of Jesus. They responded that not during the present shows, but in the future, and they would notify me when they would. I said that it is within the competence of any Christian to do the exorcism. They never got back with me. Sometime later during the ending of one of the TV series, Cathy Crosby announced that they performed an exorcism, and the audience would be surprised at what happened. Then a surprising thing happened, they cancelled the whole TV show. I learned that they were having trouble on the set, they were being sued, one, or more of the people involved in driving through a fiery tunnel got injured. To me it was no surprise. This was only the begining of my encounter with the devil.

I was levitated in the presence of the men I worked with in my shop 11-15 aprox. This levitation had nothing to do the the levitation experience by St. Theresa of Avilla My levitation wasn’t a holy levitation. It was a result of a “supposedly” trick. Two friends said they could lift my l65 lbs with four finger, one man on each side, placing two fingers under my knee joint, and two under arm pits. The two men were of small stature. I had a fitness studio at one time, and I know what l65 lbs feels like. They sat me down in a chair and proceeded with a ritual of pushing down on my head (like comressing a spring) placing the fingers, and lifted me up. I felt no force of gravity, and felt like a feather. I sensed there was something wrong, I was a subject of paranormal activity. Convinced, I suggested to the men to pray with me silently, Father in the Name of Jesus expell this deceiving spirit." They then proceeded to lift me again, and the same thing happened. One of the men stated that he could have lifted me to the ceiling, I was so light. I was really perplexed, but still convinced I was right. What was I doing wrong? Then the moment of inspiration! Make an open profession of Faith. I did and said the same prayer but openly so that every one could hear it. I sat down in the chair, the men proceeded. but this time they couldn’t lift me, several tried with the same result. My bottom slid across the chair from sheer force but that was it. ( continued next post)
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I always felt that “God of the Gaps” was a silly argument. It’s a good argument against belief in a deistic God that intervenes, but that’s not what Christianity believes.

Christianity believes in a theistic God. Have you ever seen The Matrix? In other words, imagine a virtual reality world, complete with its own internally consistent laws of nature and physics, and imagine you’re a denizen of this virtual world. You see a ball on the sidewalk and kick it. The ball moves and then eventually slows to a halt.

Why does it move?

Because, when you kicked it, you passed momentum into it. And then friction gradually caused it to slow down and stop. Everything has a natural explanation.

According to the “God of the Gaps” idea, there is no need to believe a supercomputer was involved in that interaction between you and the ball. After all, everything had a natural explanation and there’s no need for a supercomputer to be involved.

That would be incorrect, however, because a supercomputer is running the virtual world you and the ball exist in. In fact, it’s perpetually maintaining every molecule, every point in space, every moment in time.

This isn’t a contradiction to say that, on one level, kicking the ball away can be explained naturally, while at the same time a supercomputer is in control of everything. It’s not even a contradiction to say that you chose to kick it of your own free will and that the supercomputer is “in charge” of every atom of your being.

In theism, the relationship between God and reality is as a computer to a virtual world.

Of course, I don’t believe in God anymore, so it’s all just abstract mind games for me.

A X
 
icamhif said:
Now, to the questions: Do you consider that it is at least possible that a gap of knowledge has only a supernatural explanation?

If so, then when we see a gap of knowledge that science does not yet have a proven explanation, is there a point in inquiry in which a supernatural explanation would at least be worth considering? Or do you implicitly trust that scientific (or otherwise secular) explanations will eventually fill in the gap? If the latter, then how is that any less a leap of faith than believing that God fills in the gaps?
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Well stated questions.

I answer yes to the first.

My answer to the second is that we cannot tell if/when we’ve identified, explored, and exhausted all possible natural explanations.

Regardless of whether God acts by front-loading before time itself or by ongoing action within created time, among people equally accepting of divine action in the world the question is whether or not that divine action is detectable using the scientific method.

Some argue that belief in divine action - while rational and consistent with science - requires theological reasoning that goes beyond what science itself can do because the actor can choose to act without the restraints of natural law.

Others argue the opposite: that action by an unidentified but potentially divine actor - while compatible with, and even potentially supportive of, religious belief - is a scientific conclusion reachable without reference to any theology.

Each approach also has its own diverse spectrum of views, of course.
 
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