Quick help needed.. salvation

[danandirma]

another e-mail with a anti-catholic. please give me some help in showing his overlooking and ignoring much of scripture.

this is my first reply…

Catholicism tells me that I might be saved if I “follow the commandments Jesus gave us.”
you are right we have to believe, but is that all he said we had to do? here is your list…
john 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him might not perish but might have eternal life.
john 6:47 Amen, amen, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life.
john 11:25-27 Jesus told her, “I am the resurrection and the life; whoever believes in me, even if he dies, will live,
and everyone who lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?”
She said to him, “Yes, Lord. I have come to believe that you are the Messiah, the Son of God, the one who is coming into the world.”
1john 5:13 I write these things to you so that you may know that you have eternal life, you who believe in the name of the Son of God.

do not these verses hold any bearing for our salvation??
mat 5:47 And if you salute only your brethren, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? 48 You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
mat 6:14 For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father also will forgive you; 15 but if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
mat 19:16 And behold, one came up to him, saying, “Teacher, what good deed must I do, to have eternal life?” 17 And he said to him, “Why do you ask me about what is good? One there is who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments…”
mat 22: 36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?” 37 And he said to him, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. 38 This is the great and first commandment. 39* And a second is like it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.
john 3: 5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
john 6:53 So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; 54 he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.
john 14:12 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I go to the Father.

here is his come back…
Well you have a myriad of twisted verses, none of which have anything to do with salvation. But I’ll be happy to explain them to you

Matthew 5:47 & Matthew 6:14… The point of the Sermon on the Mount, is to get you to go running to Jesus for salvation… To get you to quit trying to save yourself. You are obviously still trying, actually thinking that you can do these things sufficiently. Remember though, if you are to be saved by works, then you must be SINLESSLY PERFECT from birth to death.

The Sermon on the Mount is speaking of the 1,000 year reign of Christ, until the end, when it gives you an out, which is faith alone in Jesus. That’s for now. But in the 1,000 year reign of Christ, the Kingdom, rules will be strict.

Please tell me, what country do you know, or what country has EVER taken a man before a jury (council), for saying “you idiot”? (Matthew 5:22). Yet in the Kingdom, that will happen. But that has NEVER happened on earth anywhere, unless it was speaking against a dictator where free speech is not allowed. But saying it to the Average Joe on the road, nobody cares.

Matthew 19:16, yes, the man wanted to know what he could DO. Jesus told him, be perfect. He wouldn’t agree that he isn’t perfect. He actually thought he was keeping the law. Until Jesus showed him his idolatry.

It’s like John 6:28. The people came looking for WORKS, asked Jesus to give them WORKS. There was a PERFECT OPPORTUNITY for Jesus to say, “Okay, here’s the works to do: Water baptism, “eucharist”, love your neighbor, give to the poor, etc”. But Jesus didn’t say that. Jesus said BELIEVE ON HIM WHOM HE HAS SENT…

So I have either Jesus to believe, or you.

Matthew 22:36. We should love one another. But it’s not for salvation. It’s simply right

John 3:5. Yes, I agree. But that’s not water baptism. The washing of the water of the Word (Ephesians 5:26, Romans 10:17). A person must hear the
Word of God, and believe it, and have the Holy Spirit convicting. Otherwise, they aren’t saved. Belief is what saves (John 3:16).

John 6:53, one of your favorite twisted verses out of context. Of course, John 6:63 proves that it is SYMBOLIC, not literal. Jesus said so.

John 14:12 We ought to do works. But not for salvation. And not to prove salvation. Salvation is a FREE GIFT (Romans chapter 5, the whole thing).

You can’t handle the idea of the free gift, since, it strikes fear into your heart, that the way is truly that narrow, only by faith alone in Jesus, and all those who didn’t go that way, are in eternal torment in hell right now (since there is no “purgatory”). Everyone that tried to establish their own righteousness by works (Romans 10:3) is in eternal torment in hell right now. That includes catholic cookie-making grandma. That includes Greek orthodox people working so hard to be “good”. That includes “protestants” that reason within themselves that if they don’t do enough works, then they are not part of the elect. That includes “evangelicals” that insist that they haven’t “turned from sins” enough to be saved.

You can’t handle believing in John 3:16 at face value.

So, you have your religion.

 

[wardrandolph]

The Faith alone doctrine is relatively new(Martin Luther,Calvin etc.).James 2:19 tells us the Demons believe,are they saved?No.Read verses 14-26.These verses explain faith and works.Can we be saved if we believe in Jesus but do not Love Him?Jesus said in St.John 14:15,If you Love Me,keep my commandments.vs.24 says:He that loveth me not,keepeth not my sayings.Matthew’s Gospel tells us in ch…25:31-46 tells us of people who believe but have no works.We have works because we Love our Lord.Jesus said the Law is fullfilled in 2 commandments.#1Love the Lord our God with all our heart and mind and soul. #2,Love our neighbor as ourselves.If we LOve God we will not worship other gods,take His name in vain and our desire will be to please Him.If we love our neighbor we will not lust for what he has,will not try to take his wife or anything that he has.If we love our neighbor we’ll want the best for him.If he suffers,we suffer.If he is joyful we’ll share in that joy with him.There is so much more that Holy Scripture and our Church teaches on “Being Saved”.To sum up being saved,I am saved,I am being saved and I will be saved.Hope some of this helps.Peace,Rocky.

 

[danandirma]

thank you.

 

[graceandglory]

another e-mail with a anti-catholic. please give me some he.

We are saved by faith. Just not by faith alone. We are also saved by baptism.
Our Catholic faith is defined by EVERY verse in Scripture, not just a couple verses on being saved.

Salvation is a life-long process.

As a former evangelical like your email friend, I find Pope Benedict’s encyclical “Saved in Hope” to be the best explanation of our view of being saved.
If your friend read it AS A Protestant, he would probably have to go, “Hmmmm… that’s what I believe and have experienced too.”

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/encyclicals/documents/hf_ben-xvi_enc_20071130_spe-salvi_en.html

Good luck.

 

[danandirma]

here is his next e-mail… I used wardrandolph’s (name removed by moderator)ut. thanks again…
You fail with James 2, however. James is quoting a ficticious debater, one that he doesn’t agree with! James is smarter than the ficitious debater to think that mere “monotheism” will save anyone, and James knows that demons can’t be saved anyway. James was quoting a ficitious debater, as Paul did the same in 1 Corinthians 15 and Romans 9.

Ironically, catholicism teaches that monotheism saves. That’s why one catholic teaching says that Muslims are saved if they do good, even though Muslims say that Jesus is not God, and Muslims says that Jesus never died on the cross!

So, you can’t use “the demons believe, and tremble” for your argument.

As with the rest of your verses, you are using things that apply to Christian living and discipleship, and trying to force them into salvation. But, you can’t. Not all saved believers are disciples, and, even with Christian living issues, all saved believers are still sinners. Meaning they all sin. That’s why they’re told how they OUGHT to live. Because, they don’t live that way naturally.

Today we did our study in church out of 1 Thessalonians 4. It was the PERFECT example of this principle.

Verse 1: Furthermore then we beseech you, brethren, and exhort you by the Lord Jesus, that as ye have received of us how ye ought to walk and to please God, so ye would abound more and more.

There’s the perfect example. We beesech you BRETHREN. Only bretheren are saved souls. He can’t call them BRETHEREN if they are unsaved or unsure of salvation.

And he goes on to say, here’s how you OUGHT to live.

But if they choose not to live that way, they’re still going to heaven. They’re still bretheren. They’re saved souls.

The Bible says that Jesus gives ETERNAL LIFE to all who believe in Him for it (John 3:16, John 6:47, John 20:31). The Bible says to KNOW that you are saved by believing in Jesus (1 John 5:13).

Since catholicism offers NONE of these promises, then, catholicism cannot save, and nobody should be upset when I speak my mind on YA.

 

[wardrandolph]

The once saved always saved doctrine is another one of the “newer” and very dangerous heresies.The idea that the Passion of our Lord is a licence to live anyway we want is an insult to suffering of our Lord,Jesus Christ endured for us.St.Matthew’s gospel (MT.24:13)quotes JESUS saying Endure to the end(St.Mk.13:13).Your friend is right in saying we all sin,but fails to uderstand the Great Comission that Jesus gave to the Apostles.I’m sure he knows the go ye into all the world,preach etc.,but does not understand the "whoever sins you forgive,they will be forgiven,nor does he understand the power given by our Lord on the "Loosening and Binding to the Apostles and handed down to to the Bishops and their Priests.The Sacrament of Reconcilleation is a Beautiful,Healing Sacrament.Our Lord gave us a very sprcific way in which our wounded nature could be healed.Ask your friend to study church history beginning with his church,trace it back.He will be shocked to discover that they came from the Holy Catholic Church.Ask Him to search into St. Iranius,St. Polycarp,St Ignacius and other Church Fathers and when he is finished,come here and lets share with one another what we have learned.Come let us reason together.Peace,Rocky.

 

[danandirma]

thanks again Rocky. But I am afraid this guy has the blinders on. anyway, God bless.
Dan

 

[Tanner9188]

thanks again Rocky. But I am afraid this guy has the blinders on. anyway, God bless.
Dan

**Hello; just wanted to make a general comment here; until one learns that justification and sanctification are are two separate doctrines, then one will never reach the truth except that which is taught by one’s own religion. I will also comment that the one thing that Satan attacks the most is on the salvation issue. Why? Because that is how he damns the souls; and the best place to make this attack is not in the bar or any other place you might imagine because the lust of the flesh is already at work there; so he goes to church IMO.

It is always 80% truth and 20% lie; just as Satan used on eve and tried to temp Jesus just twisting the Scriptures enough to change the message of salvation to another gospel; thus damning souls IMO.

In my world, salvation is a gift from God based on no merits of my own, AKA Grace, but solely on faith in Jesus and on the merits of Jesus. If it depended on me; I would fail each and every time. In my world, at the moment I fully put my trust in Jesus because I came to the realization that I am very sinful before a Holy and just God; there was nothing in me that I could do to reconcile myself to God for all the sin, which is an offense to God and His character and attributes. So, with a heart of repentance, which God Himself prepared; He called me into repentance and I put my faith in Christ, just as the Publican in Luke 18. He cried out to God; mournful over His sin and Jesus said; that man went home “justified” or “saved”. The pious and legalistic Pharisee was not.

At that point of justification, the sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit begins immediately, working in and through the life of the “new man”, which will last the rest of a person’s earthly life until the day of glorification. During the sanctification process; the justified will do the works or deeds that God prepared beforehand, so that the man of God, His workmanship, would walk in them. So putting justification and sanctification together means that grace is no longer grace and the work on the cross was insufficient; just as Satan would want the religious to believe and many do, but few don’t. Matthew 7:13-14

I also, believe that God has a remnant in every Christian religion regardless of the doctrines taught; I base this on the OT with the nation of Israel.

May God bless each and everyone here that posts in these forums and to the administrators, who have a tough job keeping all these views in line; not an easy task I’m sure.**

 

[guanophore]

do not these verses hold any bearing for our salvation??

You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect… etc.
anti-catholic:

Well you have a myriad of twisted verses, none of which have anything to do with salvation. But I’ll be happy to explain them to you

The verses are not “twisted”. They are inspired and inerrant, and are the very Word of God. What is twisted here is his perception of them. Most evangelicals believe that salvation happens once in time, for all time. They separate sanctification and glorification from justification, calling only justification “salvation”. The Apostles taught that justification is not separated from the other two aspects of salvation. Given this fundamental difference of the meaning of salvation, it is not likely that you will be able to get him to take any other scriptures into account.
anti-catholic:

Matthew 5:47 & Matthew 6:14... The point of the Sermon on the Mount, is to get you to go running to Jesus for salvation..  To get you to quit trying to save yourself.  You are obviously still trying, actually thinking that you can do these things sufficiently.  Remember though, if you are to be saved by works, then you must be SINLESSLY PERFECT from birth to death.

There are so many errors here, it is hard to know where to begin. The sermon on the mount is Jesus teaching us how to live our lives in faith, hope and love. Of course we must constantly be rooted in Him, the source of our salvation. He is the vine,a nd we are the branches. It is an error to think that anyone can live the Beatitudes without grace through Christ. However, it is equally wrong to think that we cannot do this sufficiently. Jesus expects no less of us. The basis of our salvation is grace, through faith. The works are the expression of that saving grace in us. Catholics do not “work” our way to heaven. By grace, through faith, we walk in the works that He has created for us before the beginning of time.
anti-catholic:

The Sermon on the Mount is speaking of the 1,000 year reign of Christ, until the end, when it gives you an out, which is faith alone in Jesus.

This is dispensational theology. It cannot be found in the Scripture. One thing to try is “show me where it says that this sermon is speaking of the 1000 year reign.”. It is not there, so it cannot be found. It is called Eisogesis, reading one’s theology into the text.
Scripture is clear that we are not saved by “faith alone”. In fact, scripture says the opposite.

Faith alone is a Reformation invention, and idea that came about 1500 years after Christ. It constitutes a “different gospel” than what we were given by the Apostles.
anti-catholic:

 That's for now.  But in the 1,000 year reign of Christ, the Kingdom, rules will be strict.

The rules are strict now. Christ is to reign in our hearts by faith. It is by the power of that faith that we are able to keep His commandments.
anti-catholic:

Matthew 19:16, yes, the man wanted to know what he could DO. Jesus told him, be perfect. He wouldn’t agree that he isn’t perfect. He actually thought he was keeping the law. Until Jesus showed him his idolatry.

Salvation is of the Jews. the Jews understood that valid faith is faith lived out in deeds. Modern evangelicalism wants to separate saving faith from the works of righteousness that it produces. Jesus did not dispute that this man kept all the commandments. He called him to an even deeper and more sacrificial relationship with Himself. Jesus affirmed that keeping the commandments will result in eternal life.
anti-catholic:

It’s like John 6:28. The people came looking for WORKS, asked Jesus to give them WORKS. There was a PERFECT OPPORTUNITY for Jesus to say, “Okay, here’s the works to do: Water baptism, “eucharist”, love your neighbor, give to the poor, etc”. But Jesus didn’t say that. Jesus said BELIEVE ON HIM WHOM HE HAS SENT…

The greatest error here is that sacraments and commandments are “works”. No distinction is made between “holy works” and “works of the flesh”. Holy works are those that are done by God’s grace, through faith. Sacraments are a way for us to participate in God’s grace. they are not “works of the flesh”. Evangelicals think this because they do not see them as a source and conduit of God’s grace. None of these are separated from believing upon the One Who was Sent.
anti-catholic:

So I have either Jesus to believe, or you.

Matthew 22:36. We should love one another. But it’s not for salvation. It’s simply right

People make this kind of statement who separate walking with God from the moment in time when they believe that salvation occurs once in time for all time. It reflects a deficient understanding of salvation.

 

[guanophore]

anti-catholic:

John 3:5. Yes, I agree. But that’s not water baptism. The washing of the water of the Word (Ephesians 5:26, Romans 10:17). A person must hear the Word of God, and believe it, and have the Holy Spirit convicting. Otherwise, they aren’t saved. Belief is what saves (John 3:16).

This is a common response from anti-sacramentalists. However, it can easily be established by looking at the history of the Church that this is not what the Apostles believed, and taught.
anti-catholic:

John 6:53, one of your favorite twisted verses out of context. Of course, John 6:63 proves that it is SYMBOLIC, not literal. Jesus said so.

I would recommend that you stay focused on one topic at a time. Again, there are no “twisted verses” in the Scripture. It is inspired, and inerrant, and is the Word of God. The only “twisting” here is done by the reader.
anti-catholic:

John 14:12 We ought to do works. But not for salvation. And not to prove salvation. Salvation is a FREE GIFT (Romans chapter 5, the whole thing).

The works of righteousness in which we are commanded to walk are also a free gift.
anti-catholic:

You can’t handle the idea of the free gift, since, it strikes fear into your heart, that the way is truly that narrow, only by faith alone in Jesus, and all those who didn’t go that way, are in eternal torment in hell right now (since there is no “purgatory”). Everyone that tried to establish their own righteousness by works (Romans 10:3) is in eternal torment in hell right now.

The believe that holy works are integral to our salvation does not equate to being :unable to handle the idea of a free gift". We cannot walk in the beatitudes without the saving grace through faith in Christ that we receive from Him. In Him, with Him, and through Him are these works of righteousness accomplished.

It is inappropriate to pronounce that any person is in hell right now. This is for God to decide. It is true that many have gone to the grave belieivng that they had to "work"their way into heaven, or that their own righteousness was going to earn them a spot. However, that is up to God.
anti-catholic:

That includes catholic cookie-making grandma. That includes Greek orthodox people working so hard to be “good”. That includes “protestants” that reason within themselves that if they don’t do enough works, then they are not part of the elect. That includes “evangelicals” that insist that they haven’t “turned from sins” enough to be saved.

This person is pronouncing all these people hellbound. this is very sad, because it goes against scripture. All of the persons here have been described in scripture:

Rom 2:5-11
6 For he will render to every man according to his works**: 7 to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life;** 8 but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury. 9 There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, **10 but glory and honor and peace for every one who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. **11 For God shows no partiality.

This person has presumed to judge those unsaved whom Scripture has declared saved!

The last little crack about not believing, so “you have your religion” would say that the two are not mutually exclusive.

James 1:26-27
27 Religion that is pure and undefiled before God and the Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unstained from the world.

Scripture does not condemn religion at all, and one cannot keep a pure and undefiled religion without faith in Christ.

Why not send him here, let us all take a crack at him? or is he afraid of us?

 

[guanophore]

here is his next e-mail… I used wardrandolph’s (name removed by moderator)ut. thanks again…

anti-catholic:

You fail with James 2, however.

Fail in what way? If we cannot be saved by faith alone, then why do you say we can? It seems that scripture states the opposite. Why is it this is the ONLY place in scripture where the words “faith alone” appear together, and it says “we are NOT saved by faith alone”?
anti-catholic:

James is quoting a ficticious debater, one that he doesn’t agree with! James is smarter than the ficitious debater to think that mere “monotheism” will save anyone, and James knows that demons can’t be saved anyway. James was quoting a ficitious debater, as Paul did the same in 1 Corinthians 15 and Romans 9.

There is nothing in the text that would indicate this is a ficticious arguement. It would come as no surprise to find that James heard this many times, just as we have here. This is not a new heresy!

Even if he were making the arguement against a fictitious debator, the salient point is that the APOSTLE DOES NOT AGREE with “faith alone saves”. This is because it is not consistent with the faith given to them by Jesus.
anti-catholic:

Ironically, catholicism teaches that monotheism saves. That’s why one catholic teaching says that Muslims are saved if they do good, even though Muslims say that Jesus is not God, and Muslims says that Jesus never died on the cross!

This is a false statement. Catholicism does not teach this. Catholicism teaches that we are all saved by grace, through faith. Please define what you mean by the word “monotheism” used here. Please provide proof to support your assertion that the Church teaches this. I think you just made this up!
anti-catholic:

So, you can’t use “the demons believe, and tremble” for your argument.

It is James’ arguement. James is pointing out that believing is not sufficient. He uses the demons as an example.
anti-catholic:

As with the rest of your verses, you are using things that apply to Christian living and discipleship, and trying to force them into salvation.

Actually, the Apostles never separated Christian living and discipleship from salvation. This is what they meant when they talked about persisting until the end. The separation of these aspects of salvation from justification is a modern invention of the Reformation.

Heb 3:14-15
14 For we share in Christ, **if only **we hold our first confidence firm to the end,
anti-catholic:

But, you can’t. Not all saved believers are disciples, and, even with Christian living issues, all saved believers are still sinners. Meaning they all sin. That’s why they’re told how they OUGHT to live. Because, they don’t live that way naturally.

One of the hallmarks of Reformation theology is the jettison of the expectation of holy conduct. Evangelicals will often make statements like this, which indicate that they believe it is not possible to live without sin.
anti-catholic:

Today we did our study in church out of 1 Thessalonians 4. It was the PERFECT example of this principle.

Verse 1: Furthermore then we beseech you, brethren, and exhort you by the Lord Jesus, that as ye have received of us how ye ought to walk and to please God, so ye would abound more and more.

There’s the perfect example. We beesech you BRETHREN. Only bretheren are saved souls. He can’t call them BRETHEREN if they are unsaved or unsure of salvation.

This is very dangerous precedent. All the scriptures about falling away from faith and failing to inherit eternal life are all addressed to the faithful.
anti-catholic:

And he goes on to say, here’s how you OUGHT to live.

But if they choose not to live that way, they’re still going to heaven. They’re still bretheren. They’re saved souls.

It is true we ought to live righteously. It is false that people will be saved if they do not . Saved souls do not persist in sin, and people who choose to sin are separating themselves from God. The nature of sin did not change this side of the cross.
anti-catholic:

The Bible says that Jesus gives ETERNAL LIFE to all who believe in Him for it (John 3:16, John 6:47, John 20:31). The Bible says to KNOW that you are saved by believing in Jesus (1 John 5:13).

Yes, and the Bible also says that those who love Him will Keep His Commandments.
anti-catholic:

Since catholicism offers NONE of these promises, then, catholicism cannot save, and nobody should be upset when I speak my mind on YA.

This is also an untruth. The New Testament was written by, for, and about Catholics. It is completely Catholic. Those promises are promises written by Catholics, to Catholics. Catholicism is the way of life taught by Jesus and the Apostles. It saves because Jesus is our Source. We are saved by His grace, through faith. He established the Church, and made us members of it. There is no separation between the Head, and the Body.

 

[bpbasilphx]

Point that there’s a big difference between what the Bible means by being saved and what your friend means by being saved. “You didn’t think they were the same, did you?”

Don’t allow your friend to claim the spiritual high ground.

You also might what to point out to your friend that contrary to the reply to you, there’s no such thing a literal earthly millennium. No matter how you slice it, it’s a kingdom of This World, and Jesus said His Kingdom was NOT of this world.

That’s why the Church says “Whose Kingdom shall have no end” in the Creed. The Second Ecumenical Council rejected the notion of an earthly millennium as a heresy.

 

[Tanner9188]

do not these verses hold any bearing for our salvation??
You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect… etc.

Can and have you done that? Be prefect as your father in heaven is perfect.

The verses are not “twisted”. They are inspired and inerrant, and are the very Word of God. What is twisted here is his perception of them. Most evangelicals believe that salvation happens once in time, for all time. They separate sanctification and glorification from justification, calling only justification “salvation”. The Apostles taught that justification is not separated from the other two aspects of salvation. Given this fundamental difference of the meaning of salvation, it is not likely that you will be able to get him to take any other scriptures into account.

**That is because salvation is justification and a gift of God, that no one may boast in what? The imagination of men that they have some merit in themselves to work with God to salvation; which is to say that Christ’s work on the cross is insufficient unless on meritoriously cooperates. I t would also indicate one can be indwelt by the holy Spirit, then un-indwelt, which you won’t find in Scripture.

I’ll give an example; in Hebrews 5:11-6:8; tell me is the writer addressing believers or unbelievers?
**

There are so many errors here, it is hard to know where to begin. The sermon on the mount is Jesus teaching us how to live our lives in faith, hope and love. Of course we must constantly be rooted in Him, the source of our salvation. He is the vine,a nd we are the branches. It is an error to think that anyone can live the Beatitudes without grace through Christ. However, it is equally wrong to think that we cannot do this sufficiently. Jesus expects no less of us. The basis of our salvation is grace, through faith. The works are the expression of that saving grace in us.

this is very Protestant of you.

Catholics do not “work” our way to heaven. By grace, through faith, we walk in the works that He has created for us before the beginning of time.

Are you protestant or Catholic?

This is dispensational theology. It cannot be found in the Scripture. One thing to try is “show me where it says that this sermon is speaking of the 1000 year reign.”. It is not there, so it cannot be found.

The Sermon is for now; not later…ageed? EDITED

Scripture is clear that we are not saved by “faith alone”. In fact, scripture says the opposite.

You may be correct or maybe incorrect depending how you define this. If you believe one can be indwelt by the Holy Spirit, then un-indwelt, in other words lose their salvation; that is the trick of the devil to attack the salvation message of the gospel; if the devil can get someone to change the finished work of Christ to deem it insufficient in any manner, then we have another gospel and the devil has reached his goal.

Faith alone is a Reformation invention, and idea that came about 1500 years after Christ. It constitutes a “different gospel” than what we were given by the Apostles.
The rules are strict now. Christ is to reign in our hearts by faith. It is by the power of that faith that we are able to keep His commandments.

Again, you sound much more protestant than Catholic. Unless you meant by* “power of that faith that we are able to keep His commandments”* Is the power from God or from you?

Salvation is of the Jews. the Jews understood that valid faith is faith lived out in deeds. Modern evangelicalism wants to separate saving faith from the works of righteousness that it produces. Jesus did not dispute that this man kept all the commandments. He called him to an even deeper and more sacrificial relationship with Himself. Jesus affirmed that keeping the commandments will result in eternal life.

**This is where you misunderstand; when a man realizes His sinfulness before God and the offense of sin, which attacks His character and attributes, then cry’s out before God for mercy because he knows their is nothing in himself that can reconcile him to God, such as the Tax collector in Luke 18, as Jesus put it, that man went home “justified” (Saved) and the other pious and legalistic Pharisee, did not.

No different than the thief on the cross that was justified before Jesus because He prepared that heart of repentance and the thief believed by faith in Jesus and was justified.

CONTINUED ON NEXT POST**

 

[Tanner9188]

**Justification happens at the moment that the believer, the one with a heart of repentance, fully puts their trust in Jesus; at that moment the Holy Spirit is indwelt and the sanctification process begins and will not end till the day of glorification. it is during that sanctification period of a believers life that: “For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.” this is the description of the sanctification wrought by the Holy Spirit. You will never see the term “in Christ” in reference to an unjustified person.

If you do not separated the justification aspect from the sanctification, as Scripture does, then grace is no longer grace and it is the same as saying the work of Christ on the cross is insufficient; thus another gospel, just enough to play into the hand of the devil**.

The greatest error here is that sacraments and commandments are “works”. No distinction is made between “holy works” and “works of the flesh”. Holy works are those that are done by God’s grace, through faith. Sacraments are a way for us to participate in God’s grace. they are not “works of the flesh”. Evangelicals think this because they do not see them as a source and conduit of God’s grace.

God called the the command to Abraham to bound and sacrifice Issac a “work”; so I think you are incorrect here. It is not a matter of separation; it is a matter of commingling where the error occurs…

People make this kind of statement who separate walking with God from the moment in time when they believe that salvation occurs once in time for all time. It reflects a deficient understanding of salvation.

 

[Tanner9188]

Point that there’s a big difference between what the Bible means by being saved and what your friend means by being saved. “You didn’t think they were the same, did you?”

Don’t allow your friend to claim the spiritual high ground.

You also might what to point out to your friend that contrary to the reply to you, there’s no such thing a literal earthly millennium. No matter how you slice it, it’s a kingdom of This World, and Jesus said His Kingdom was NOT of this world.

That’s why the Church says “Whose Kingdom shall have no end” in the Creed. The Second Ecumenical Council rejected the notion of an earthly millennium as a heresy.

Then when do the earthly Jews get redeemed? Yeah; it will be a literal 1000 year reign; otherwise you will have a very difficult time explaining from Scripture, how the nation of Israel is redeemed apart from the literal reign of Christ.

 

[guanophore]

**Can and have you done that? Be prefect as your father in heaven is perfect.**

This is a very good question. In some sense, we are already perfected in baptism. We are being perfected, and we will be perfected. Our perfection comes from grace, His covering us with His blood, and His Spirit cleansing and transforming us by grace into His image. When we are glorified, all remnants of the “old man” will be purified from us, and then we will “see Him as He really is, for we shall be like HIm”.

The difference between what many Protestants believe and the Apostolic Teaching is that we are not just ‘declared’ righteous, but actually “made” righteous. He wants us to be made perfect, as well as declared perfect. Many believe that we cannot live a holy life, and follow the commandments, but this is not true.

 **That is because salvation is justification and a gift of God, that no one may boast in what?  The imagination of men that they have some merit in themselves to work with God to salvation; which is to say that Christ's work on the cross is insufficient unless on meritoriously cooperates.  I t would also indicate one can be indwelt by the holy Spirit, then un-indwelt, which you won't find in Scripture.**

No, justification is just one aspect of salvation. It is a free gift, that we not boast. However, it is God who gives us the ability and desire to work with Him in our salvation. This is what it means when it says “work out your own salvation with fear and trembling”. We work out what He has already placed within us.

The reason His work on the cross is not sufficient unless we cooperate is because He is not going to override our free will If we do not wish to be saved, He will respect our choice.

On the contrary, we see many examples of being indwelt by the Spirit, then the spirit leaves the person.

 I'll give an example; in Hebrews 5:11-6:8; tell me is the writer addressing believers or unbelievers?

The letter of Hebrews is directed to believers.

  **You may be correct or maybe incorrect depending how you define this.  If you believe one can be indwelt by the Holy Spirit, then un-indwelt, in other words lose their salvation; that is the trick of the devil to attack the salvation message of the gospel; if the devil can get someone to change the finished work of Christ to deem it insufficient in any manner, then we have another gospel and the devil has reached his goal.**

I am sure that it seems this way to you, since you appear to have been taught a deficient gospel. God is not finished working with us while we are on this earth. Salvation is not somthing that occurs at one point in time. ,for all time. It begins at justification, continues in sanctification, and is completed after this life, in glorification. While we are on this earth, the possibility remains that we can fall from the faith,a nd become shiprwrecked.

  Again, you sound much more protestant than Catholic.  Unless you meant by* "power of that faith that we are able to keep His commandments"*  Is the power from God or from you?

We are able to keep God’s commandments by grace, through faith. These good works are those that He predestined for us to walk in before the beginning of time. We die to ourselves, until all that is left is Christ within us.

 **This is where you misunderstand; when a man realizes His sinfulness before God and the offense of sin, which attacks His character and attributes, then cry's out before God for mercy because he knows their is nothing in himself that can reconcile him to God, such as the Tax collector in Luke 18, as Jesus put it, that man went home "justified" (Saved) and the other pious and legalistic Pharisee, did not.**

No misunderstanding. We are in agreement on this point.

No different than the thief on the cross that was justified before Jesus because He prepared that heart of repentance and the thief believed by faith in Jesus and was justified.

Right. We are all saved, by grace, through faith, for works.

 

[guanophore]

Justification happens at the moment that the believer, the one with a heart of repentance, fully puts their trust in Jesus; at that moment the Holy Spirit is indwelt and the sanctification process begins and will not end till the day of glorification. it is during that sanctification period of a believers life that: “For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.” this is the description of the sanctification wrought by the Holy Spirit. You will never see the term “in Christ” in reference to an unjustified person.

This is all consistent with the Aposotlic Teaching, with the exception that the Apostles taught this happened in Baptism.

If you do not separated the justification aspect from the sanctification, as Scripture does, then grace is no longer grace and it is the same as saying the work of Christ on the cross is insufficient; thus another gospel, just enough to play into the hand of the devil

.

Scripture never separates these, either, Tanner. The same grace that justifies is that which sanctifies. Human disobedience, putting one’s hand to the plow then looking back (falling away from faith) does not nullify the grace of the cross. The disobedient do not recieve the grace of salvation.

I can see how, though, Catholicism would seem like “a different gospel” to you. It seems that you never received the Apostolic faith in the first place.

**God called the the command to Abraham to bound and sacrifice Issac a "work"; so I think you are incorrect here.  It is not a matter of separation; it is a matter of commingling where the error occurs..**

Works of obedience, such as Abraham did, come from grace. It is not a normal human trait to offer your only son to God. Abraham did not want to do this. He did it because he was obedient in faith. Neither can mankind obey the commandments of God apart from grace, through faith. This is not a “comingling”. Obedience is the natural fruit of a grace filled, faithful life.

 

[danandirma]

the anti-catholic’s latest e-mail… thanks to all for the help, I obviously need it.
Salvation is in a moment, and irrevokable.

Growing in the Lord is a lifetime. That is what the rest of the Bible is for.

But if you’re going to direct me to the “extra-Biblical writings” of whoever, you won’t find me going there, ever

And once again, you quoted Matthew 24, and used it out of context. That is the Olivet Discourse. Thoes that endure to the end, see the Lord’s return. Not “endure to the end to be saved from hell”. The word “saved” in the Bible (Greek “sozo”) is used sometimes for salvation from hell, sometimes salvation from physical death, sometimes salvation from missing out on special blessings, sometimes salvation from losing rewards, etc.

I have a Bible that is ETERNAL. The Word of God is eternal, in fact, He exalted His Word above His own Name. So I don’t have to trace the “history” of an organization or a building. I have JESUS, who is eternal.

 

[wardrandolph]

Where did the Bible come from and who has the authority to interpret Sacred Scripture?What is the “Pillar and Foundation of Truth”?

 

[danandirma]

Where did the Bible come from and who has the authority to interpret Sacred Scripture?What is the “Pillar and Foundation of Truth”?

yeah, I used that one already. this guy just looks past verses like this, or he will add in his own meaning.

this was my reply…
If John 3:16 is all we need then why is the bible so long?? My friend, there is more to the bible then one verse. You know much of the scriptures, but ignore their validity. You wonder why people on YA give you a hard time???.. Understanding the bible is not rocket science, I can see it is hard for you to justify your beliefs. You have to twist much of scripture to make it fit your theology.
God be with you
Dan