Quick question about The Catechism of the Catholic Church

[annad347]

I’m not saying that God doesn’t lead us…

Yes, you did, when I asked… if I cannot trust God, who can trust… you said the Catholic Church.

“how do we, ourselves, know that we’re actually following Him?”

I answered that… the only way to know someone is following the Holy Spirit is to pay attention to them. Listen to what they say about God, and whether their actions conflict with what they say about God. I can say I love you but it could just be words with no meaning in my heart or mind… deep down I could actually hate you, so how would you know I really love you, when I say I love you?

After all, as we’ve discussed, lots of people think they’re following God, but they’re doing (and believing) opposite things. All of them think they’re following God, and trusting that God is leading them. But they hold beliefs that conflict with each other! That doesn’t bother you?

I can’t do anything about what people think… but the minute I have the ability to read a person’s heart and mind as God, I will know they are not following God’s will, and then it will bother me. Until then I can only go by what they say and what they do when it comes to God.

If someone tells me Jesus was just a nice man, yes I would say something. If they’d say any of my beliefs are wrong I will discuss it with them using scripture, but we will talk, try to understand each other and pray (which many church leaders are doing now, with the differences in their understanding). After I would trust God to do what He has to do if one of us is on the wrong path. When we place our trust and faith in the power of God, we know He will lead the person or me correctly though the Holy Spirit in a way that the person or I will listen, understand, accept and follow.

It strikes me as very, very serious. We all believe in and trust in God – but how do we know we’ve gotten it right?

the second you believe and trust in God, you know you’ve got it right.

But that’s not what you said you do, you said you believe and trust in the Catholic church, not the Holy Spirit. You said you don’t even believe you were led to the Catholic church by God through the power of the Holy Spirit.

 

[annad347]

You realize that you’ve just described Protestantism, right? Rather than following the Church that Christ Himself founded, they’re following the teachings of just “someone” 1500 years later who says “trust me above Christ and the Church He gave us”.

That’s what you said… actually you specifically said that’s what the Catholic church teaches.

I said I was following my Savior who was born about 2,020 years ago, give or take or a month or day, through the power of His gift given to me when I was baptized in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, which was about 50-51 years ago give or take a month or day… but I don’t think you believe or understand when I say I’m following God, not man.

Ever thought there might be a reason God allows me to attend a Catholic and Lutheran church every week… a reason He makes it possible? I know you don’t know me, my life or my job but going to two churches every week is not easy, I work on Sundays… but by the grace of God, I haven’t had to pick one over the other for almost 2 years.

 

[Gorgias]

Yes, you did, when I asked… if I cannot trust God, who can trust… you said the Catholic Church.

A couple of thoughts:

• God leads us to the Church that His son founded.
• The question isn’t “if I can’t trust God…”, it’s “if I can’t trust myself…”. And, we can’t. So, trust God to preserve the Church that He founded.

I answered that… the only way to know someone is following the Holy Spirit is to pay attention to them.

And people do that. And yet, they get it wrong. So, yet again: if, attempting to do the right, we do the wrong, who should we trust? Ourselves? Others? Or the Church Jesus founded?

the second you believe and trust in God , you know you’ve got it right.

Everybody who founds a denomination says that they’re doing that (and, to tell the truth, I think they’re generally being honest in their attempt). Doesn’t mean that they’re right, though.

you said you believe and trust in the Catholic church, not the Holy Spirit.

C’mon, Anna… now you’re misrepresenting me. Let me be pain-stakingly clear: I believe in the Catholic Church, because I believe that this is the vehicle that Christ gave us in which we will encounter the Holy Spirit. I don’t trust in the Church to the exclusion of the Holy Spirit – I trust in the Church because that’s where Jesus gave us the Holy Spirit.

I don’t think you believe or understand when I say I’m following God, not man.

You’re attempting to follow God through a denomination founded by man. I’m attempting to follow God through a Church founded by Jesus. That’s where I see the difference.

Ever thought there might be a reason God allows me to attend a Catholic and Lutheran church every week

Because He wants you to make a free choice. And He wants it to be the right one.

 

[annad347]

And He wants it to be the right one.

and if it isn’t Catholicism, it’s not from God.

 

[Montrose]

and if it isn’t Catholicism, it’s not from God.

Only the Catholic Church has the FULLNESS OF TRUTH given to it by God (Father, Son and Holy Spirit).

 

[Finally_Catholic]

the catechism doesn’t “equate” to the Scripture. Have you ever read the catechism? It explains what the Church teaches. After 40 years of hearing what protestants tell you Catholics believe it was quite an eye opener to read what they actually believe and understand how they interpret Scripture. If you truly want to know what the Catholic Church teaches get a catechism, a missal, a complete Bible (the protestant one is incomplete). Pray and read, make a list of questions along with an appointment with a priest. At least give the CC an honest look; The anti-catholic ideas that are rampant in most protestant circles are not.

 

[Gorgias]

and if it isn’t Catholicism, it’s not from God.

Not saying precisely that. But, if it conflicts with or is at odds with the Catholic Church, then it’s not from God.

 

[annad347]

@Montrose, does that mean everyone else is teaching lies?

@Gorgias, what precisely are you saying, if its not from the Catholic church it’s a lie?

After 40 years of hearing what protestants tell you Catholics believe it was quite an eye opener to read what they actually believe and understand how they interpret Scripture.

In all honesty, after 51 years of being Catholic and almost 2 years of actually paying attention to what Catholic’s believe (teach) from other Catholics is also quite an eye opener.

I was a fly-by Catholic in my 20’s, you know visit church Christmas, Easter, special occasion… never really paid attention or really cared about what was taught, until now. I didn’t learn anything from Protestants, it just sound like I did, based on what people say about me from some of my comments here.

 

[Gorgias]

@Gorgias, what precisely are you saying, if its not from the Catholic church it’s a lie?

No. The Church teaches that “in many ways [the Church] is linked with those who, being baptized, are honored with the name of Christian, though they do not profess the faith in its entirety or do not preserve unity of communion with the successor of Peter.”

If someone believes in some doctrine that’s in conflict with the teachings of the Church, though, we have to ask where this teaching comes from. Does it come from God or the Holy Spirit, such that to some folks God teaches “believe this doctrine” and to others He teaches “don’t believe this doctrine”? That is illogical.

So, it’s not that the fact of being outside the Church that makes a denomination’s teachings ‘wrong’. It’s teaching things that are in conflict with the Church’s teachings that makes a teaching ‘wrong’!

In all honesty, after 51 years of being Catholic and almost 2 years of actually paying attention to what Catholic’s believe (teach) from other Catholics is also quite an eye opener.

Catholics believe that the “fullness of the truth” is found in the teachings of the Catholic Church. This can be quite jarring to those who are familiar with Protestant approaches, which tend to be along the lines of the 17th century Reformation aphorism “in essentials unity, in non-essentials liberty, and in all things charity.” In Reformation culture, this is the “get out of jail free” card that seems to allow different denominations to disagree with each others’ doctrines – just call them “non-essentials”, and you have the ‘liberty’ to assert your own novel doctrine.

But, in a Catholic perspective, there’s the “fullness of the truth”, which is given by God and proclaimed by the Church.

 

[annad347]

No. The Church teaches that “in many ways [the Church] is linked with those who, being baptized, are honored with the name of Christian, though they do not profess the faith in its entirety or do not preserve unity of communion with the successor of Peter.”

so if the Catholic church doesn’t approve, God doesn’t approve?

This can be quite jarring to those who are familiar with Protestant approaches,

What about people who are not familiar with a Protestant approach to God, but only goes by what is written in a Catholic bible and taught in a Catholic bible class ( wish sadly was canceled due to Corvid)?

I said the stuff being taught to me, specifically on this message board by Catholics is eye opening… is because I guess I never really paid to the truth of Catholic beliefs, and from what little I do remember compared to what I’m learning now is so… I don’t know…disconcerting? (sorry)

But God willing the class will return, along with my new understanding of how to use the Catechism, with the help of the Holy Spirit… the things that worry me about Catholic beliefs will become clearing.

 

[Gorgias]

so if the Catholic church doesn’t approve, God doesn’t approve?

It works the other way: what the Catholic Church binds or looses, God binds or looses.

So, if it’s something that God hasn’t asserted (for instance, the teaching authority of the Gospel, or the assurance of accuracy (i.e., that the gates of hell do not prevail (over the teaching of the Gospel)), then there’s no divine approval there. (Implicitly, though, if the assertion is one that the Catholic Church has already taught – and therefore, we know that God ratifies – then the thing being taught is correct, regardless who teaches it!)

So, let’s take it down to concrete examples:

• The Church teaches “Christ was raised from the dead.”
  • No matter who teaches “Christ was raised from the dead”, they’re correct.
• The Church teaches “the Eucharist is the body, blood, soul, and divinity of Christ”.
  • No matter who teaches this, is correct.
  • Whoever teaches something different than this, is incorrect.
• The Church teaches “the Eucharist is validly confected by a priest who is validly ordained in communion with Apostolic succession.”
  • No matter who teaches this, is correct.
  • Whoever teaches something different than this, is in error.

So, is it “if the Catholic Church doesn’t approve, God doesn’t approve”? No. But, what we know – and what we have Scriptural proof of! – is “what the Catholic Church teaches, God upholds.”

What about people who are not familiar with a Protestant approach to God, but only goes by what is written in a Catholic bible and taught in a Catholic bible class ( wish sadly was canceled due to Corvid)?

If what was being taught was Catholic doctrine – validly presented! – then it’s all good. If, on the other hand, what they were teaching was at odds with Catholic teaching? No. Just because you’re sitting in a class advertised as “Catholic” doesn’t mean that their teaching is accurate. We’d hope it would be, but sadly, that isn’t always the case. (I can’t tell you the number of “Catholic Bible studies” or “RCIA classes” that I’ve been present at, actually teach things at odds with what the Catholic Church teaches. They’re good people, I believe… but they can teach things that aren’t what the Church teaches. The problem is… how do you discern – when you hear what’s being taught? – whether it’s accurate or not? That’s why the Bible warns that teachers of the faith are judged more intensely, and warns against teaching error!)

 

[Gorgias]

compared to what I’m learning now is so… I don’t know…disconcerting? (sorry)

No worries. In charity, we would believe and hope they’re teaching you what the Church teaches. To be fair, though, the Bible and the Catechism take different approaches to teaching the message of Christ. The catechism is systematic – it teaches things from A to Z, in order, organized by topic. The Gospels, though, aren’t systematic, they’re a narrative – they describe what Christ said and did, and each of them do so in a chronological sense.

So, if you want to know what Christ says about the Eucharist, you’d have to look here and then there and then somewhere else in the Bible, but the catechism teaches it in one piece, all together. If you wanted to learn what happened on Holy Thursday, the Gospels give you that description, chronologically. The catechism will teach you the meaning and implication of Holy Thursday, but you might have to look here for a statement about the institution of the Eucharist, and there for a description about what we believe about those events, and still over there for how those events should shape our daily lives.

Different teaching tools, and therefore, different approaches. One isn’t to be used to the exclusion of the other. The two don’t stand in contradiction to each other; they teach the same story.

 

[annad347]

It works the other way: what the Catholic Church binds or looses, God binds or looses.

that’s the same thing I just said, except you say bind and looses, I said approves.

I was wonder if you are paying any attention to what I’m saying and now I’m starting to wondering if you are paying attention to what you’re saying.

 

[annad347]

So, is it “if the Catholic Church doesn’t approve, God doesn’t approve”? No. But, what we know – and what we have Scriptural proof of! – is “what the Catholic Church teaches, God upholds.”

again the same thing I just said.

 

[annad347]

The problem is… how do you discern – when you hear what’s being taught? – whether it’s accurate or not? That’s why the Bible warns that teachers of the faith are judged more intensely, and warns against teaching error!)

Which is why Jesus said for his disciples to be baptized in the name of the FATHER, the SON and the HOLY SPIRIT

I said the Holy Spirit within us helps guides to God’s Truth… especially His Truth is being taught to us by other humans.

Yyou are telling me that not only can I not trust the Holy Spirit within me (who Jesus said will lead me to God’s Truth) but I now can not trust the Catholic church to teach me God’s Truth because not everyone in the Catholic church is true in what they are teaching…

so who do you go to that tells you, you specifically that you are doing the will of God? You have yet to answer that.

I can’t go to God cause I can’t trust myself to hear Him.
I can’t go to my priest cause he might be wrong.
I can’t go to my teachers cause they might be wrong.
So what exactly am I suppose to so, because you are not telling me anything that gives me any hope I’m following the will of God, except to cross my fingers and whisper good luck to my self as I take each step in my life. Which wont help because I don’t believe in luck.

and to be honest, if that’s what you are saying… I’d rather take my chances with prayers to God for guidance through the Holy Spirit, to lead me to do His will.

I’m not finished…

 

[Gorgias]

Gorgias:

It works the other way: what the Catholic Church binds or looses, God binds or looses.

that’s the same thing I just said, except you say bind and looses, I said approves.

Hmm… I don’t think so. But, maybe I misunderstood what you were trying to say to me.

If you meant “if the Church doesn’t say anything about something about a topic, then God doesn’t approve anything that anyone else says about it”, then no… that’s not what I was trying to say.

But, if you meant "if the Church says ‘such-and-such is wrong’, then God says ‘yup; that’s wrong!’, then yeah… that’s what I meant.

So, if the Church – having being given authority by Jesus to teach the faith and morals – says “you may not divorce”, then we believe that this is something that God says “” to. It doesn’t matter who else out there:

• Christian / non-Christian
• good guy / bad guy
• somebody who honestly believes he’s following the Holy Spirit

says differently. If he teaches something different, no matter how good / honest / Christian he thinks he is… he’s not teaching the truth. (Not because Pope so-and-so said so (on the basis of his own personal holiness), but because Jesus gave the Church the authority to say so.)

 

[annad347]

So, if you want to know what Christ says about the Eucharist, you’d have to look here and then there and then somewhere else in the Bible, but the catechism teaches it in one piece, all together.

Which brings me back to the beginning of this thread, is the the Catechism of the Catholic Church equal to scripture…because right now it seems like the Catechism is the only tool I can use to understand God’s will for me… especially since everything I learn I should be making sure its true in the Catholic church to understand if it is bound or loosed by God.

You know I also just learned Catholic teach that the Bible is not infallible, but they teach the Bible is true in what it says, it doesn’t lie but it can make mistakes… so I can’t even trust the Bible.

 

[Gorgias]

Which is why Jesus said for his disciples to be baptized in the name of the FATHER, the SON and the HOLY SPIRIT

Ananias and Sapphira were baptized members of the Church. Were they right because of their baptism? Paul talks about a guy who shacked up with his stepmother. Was he right because he was baptized? The Corinthians were cool with him doing so. Were they right because they were baptized? (Paul really, seriously, strenuously says “NO!”.)

Yyou are telling me that not only can I not trust the Holy Spirit within me (who Jesus said will lead me to God’s Truth) but I now can not trust the Catholic church to teach me God’s Truth because not everyone in the Catholic church is true in what they are teaching…

No and no.

• Trust the Holy Spirit. If you end up believing something that the Catholic Church doesn’t believe, then it’s time to ask “am I really following the Holy Spirit here?”
• Trust the Catholic Church. Just because someone says something, even if they say “trust me; I’m Catholic”, doesn’t mean it’s true. Test it against the teachings of the Church.

St Paul teaches about this exact dynamic in Galatians!!! Christians came to Galatia and taught them “oh yeah… you absolutely need to be circumsized, and you absolutely need to follow Mosaic Law, in order to follow Christ.” And Paul told them, “oh, foolish Galatians!” He literally pointed out to them that these folks – who thought of themselves as honest-to-goodness, Spirit-led Christians – were teaching in error. So… who corrected the error? Paul. An apostle. Divinely given the authority to teach.

It’s literally the same example you keep raising. “Can Christians who honestly believe they’re being led by the Spirit teach something that’s false?” St Paul says “yes.”

I can’t go to God cause I can’t trust myself to hear Him.

Go to God. Test what “you hear” against the authoritative teachings of His Word.

I can’t go to my priest cause he might be wrong.

Go to God. Test what you hear against the authoritative teachings of His Word.

I can’t go to my teachers cause they might be wrong.

Go to your teachers. Test what you hear…

…you get the point. Right? Go to them. Presume they’re teaching you truth. Once you hear a discrepancy, though… test it against the teachings of the Church. Anybody can make a mistake. Anybody can be misled. Anybody can attempt to mislead.

St Paul tells us: test what we hear.

 

[Gorgias]

Which brings me back to the beginning of this thread, is the the Catechism of the Catholic Church equal to scripture

Both provide the teachings of Christ. One is divinely inspired, and the other divinely guaranteed.

You know I also just learned Catholic teach that the Bible is not infallible

“Infallible” only applies to people. The Bible is inerrant. That means that there is no error in the Bible.

(Of course, individual people can make errors in their interpretation of the Bible, right?)

[Catholics] teach the Bible is true in what it says, it doesn’t lie but it can make mistakes

No, the Church doesn’t teach this.

so I can’t even trust the Bible.

Trust the Bible. Test the interpretations you hear about the Bible, though.

 

[annad347]

Ananias and Sapphira were baptized members of the Church. Were they right because of their baptism?

I said from the beginning, you can’t tell if a person is following God’s will through the Holy Spirit just by what they say, you also have to go by how they act and if it matches to what they say. Remember when I said, I can say I love you, but how will you know I really love you or if its words without any meaning, you’ll know by how I treat you.

Even those with the Holy Spirit will fall, but God will always be there to pick us up, dust us off and help us to back on the road to Him, because He will forgive us for our mistakes… those two people you mentioned, were they ever sorry for deceiving the church? Where any of the other people you mentioned… did they repent or did they continue to ignore the guidance of the Holy Spirit they received when they were baptized?

It’s literally the same example you keep raising. “Can Christians who honestly believe they’re being led by the Spirit teach something that’s false?” St Paul says “yes.”

Paul honestly taught that the Holy Spirit will lead us away from God? Paul taught us to not trust God, or the gift of the Holy Spirit given to us by Jesus?