Quick question about The Catechism of the Catholic Church

[annad347]

Trust the Bible. Test the interpretations you hear about the Bible, though.

against the Catholic church, and if the Catholic church say no, then God says no… which means the Catholic church dictates to God what is pleasing to Him, what is His will?

So the way to the Father isn’t Jesus Christ but the Catholic church. (yea anyone reading this thread knew that was coming)

 

[Gorgias]

I said from the beginning, you can’t tell if a person is following God’s will through the Holy Spirit just by what they say, you also have to go by how they act and if it matches to what they say.

That still means “I get to decide”; it’s still a subjective decision. The answer here should be objective, not subjective.

Paul honestly taught that the Holy Spirit will lead us away from God?

No – Paul taught that there were folks who honestly thought that the Holy Spirit was leading them, were wrong.

Paul taught us to not trust God, or the gift of the Holy Spirit given to us by Jesus?

Paul offered correction to those who were wrong. Does that mean that he merely left them to their own personal feelings about God or the Holy Spirit, or does it mean that he said “hey – you’re mistaken; here’s what God is asking of you”…?

 

[Gorgias]

against the Catholic church, and if the Catholic church say no, then God says no… which means the Catholic church dictates to God what is pleasing to Him, what is His will?

“What you bind/loose on earth is bound/loosed in heaven.”

What does that mean?

(I take it to mean that it’s not against God’s will, but that God protects the Church from error. What the Church binds on earth, God binds in heaven.)

(yea anyone reading this thread knew that was coming)

Yeah.

So the way to the Father isn’t Jesus Christ but the Catholic church.

The way to the Father is through Jesus. The way to the fullness of the truth of Jesus’ teachings is through the Church. That’s what Jesus told us… yep! It’s actually in Scripture!

 

[annad347]

Paul offered correction to those who were wrong. Does that mean that he merely left them to their own personal feelings about God or the Holy Spirit, or does it mean that he said “hey – you’re mistaken; here’s what God is asking of you”…?

does Paul teach us not to trust the God

 

[Gorgias]

does Paul teach us not to trust the God

Did Paul teach “just trust God” when folks were breaking into factions? Did Paul teach “just trust God” when folks were ok with immorality among themselves? Did Paul teach “just trust God” when folks were boasting about the particular gifts that had been given them?

Or… did Paul teach “you belong to Christ, not Paul or Cephas or Apollo”? (1 Cor 3)

Did he teach that people should have been sorrowful, not proud, at immoral actions done in their midst? (1 Cor 5)

Didn’t he teach that speaking in tongues or prophecy or wisdom and knowledge and charitable giving is nothing, compared to love? (1 Cor 13)

No… Paul didn’t say “meh… just trust that you understand God”. He taught “hey! you’ve got it wrong! Here’s what God asks of you!”

 

[annad347]

Did Paul teach us not to trust God?

 

[Gorgias]

Did Paul teach us not to trust God?

Actually, didn’t he tell folks to follow what he taught?

 

[annad347]

so did he teach us not to trust God?

 

[Gorgias]

“Our appeal does not spring from error or uncleanness, nor is it made with guile; but just as we have been approved by God to be entrusted with the gospel, so we speak … And we also thank God constantly for this, that when you received the word of God which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men but as what it really is, the word of God.” (1 Thess 2:4, 13)

Literally, he’s telling folks not only that his teaching – as an apostle – comes by virtue of God’s approval, but also that this divinely approved teaching is the “word of God” because it comes from God’s approbation.

So… it’s “trust God, who gave us authority to teach His message.”

It’s not “trust that anything you hear is from God”.

 

[annad347]

so yes? Paul taught us not to trust God.

because that passage, you posted isn’t saying not to trust God, it says accept those who received the Word of God, and to accept it because its is not from man, but from God… so it is the Word of God (Jesus) we should trust, not because it comes from man but from God.

… which is also at work in you believers.

 

[LeonardoArruda]

What exactly is

It is a book that exposes the Church teachings on everything, it doesnt always explain it though.

and is it equal to the bible?

No.

 

[Gorgias]

annad347:

and is it equal to the bible?

No.

Well… be careful with such a terse and definitive answer. Inasmuch as the catechism conveys the teachings of the Church, it is conveying Sacred Tradition, isn’t it? And, here’s what the catechism says about the relationship between Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition:

80 “Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture, then, are bound closely together, and communicate one with the other. For both of them, flowing out from the same divine well-spring, come together in some fashion to form one thing, and move towards the same goal.” Each of them makes present and fruitful in the Church the mystery of Christ, who promised to remain with his own “always, to the close of the age”.

. . . two distinct modes of transmission

81 “Sacred Scripture is the speech of God as it is put down in writing under the breath of the Holy Spirit.”

“And [Holy] Tradition transmits in its entirety the Word of God which has been entrusted to the apostles by Christ the Lord and the Holy Spirit. It transmits it to the successors of the apostles so that, enlightened by the Spirit of truth, they may faithfully preserve, expound and spread it abroad by their preaching.”

82 As a result the Church, to whom the transmission and interpretation of Revelation is entrusted, “does not derive her certainty about all revealed truths from the holy Scriptures alone. Both Scripture and Tradition must be accepted and honored with equal sentiments of devotion and reverence.”

So, the catechism – as a book – isn’t the equal of the Bible. However, the teachings inside the catechism, inasmuch as they are Sacred Tradition, are to be “accepted and honored with equal sentiments of devotion and reverence.”

 

[Gorgias]

so it is the Word of God (Jesus) we should trust, not because it comes from man but from God.

Ahh, but you’re missing the part about accepting the teaching as being from God because it was taught by those ‘approved by God to be entrusted with the gospel’.

So: from God, but through those He has identified to teach it authoritatively.

 

[annad347]

Did you miss that part where Paul says "We also constantly give thanks to God for this, that when you received the word of God that you heard from us, you accepted it ** not as a human word but as what it really is, God’s word, which is also at work in you believers. 1 Thessalonians 2:13

Jesus also said “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father in heaven.(Matthew 16 NRSVCE - The Demand for a Sign - The Pharisees - Bible Gateway).

Paul say God is revealing His truth to us, and Jesus says God is revealing His truth to us.

So again I ask, is Paul teaching is not to trust God?

 

[Gorgias]

Did you miss that part where Paul says "We also constantly give thanks to God for this, that when you received the word of God that you heard from us, you accepted it ** not as a human word but as what it really is, God’s word, which is also at work in you believers.

No, I didn’t. Did you miss the part where Paul asserts that it’s the word of God that “you heard from us”, and Paul describes the ‘us’ here as “we have been approved by God to be entrusted with the gospel”?

The issue isn’t the message, as such, but the identity of who teaches the message. When it’s ones whom God has entrusted with the Gospel, then trust the message. When it’s not, though… Paul castigates them for getting it wrong!

So again I ask, is Paul teaching is not to trust God?

Paul is teaching us to trust the word of God as proclaimed by those to whom that teaching has been entrusted.

 

[annad347]

The issue isn’t the message , as such, but the identity of who teaches the message .

What… I’m sorry… WHAT?

Did you just say the message doesnt matter? What they say doesn’t matter as long as it’s said by some of authority?

 

[Gorgias]

Did you just say the message doesnt matter?

sigh. Really?

No… the message matters. C’mon… are you really suggesting I’m saying otherwise?

The authenticity of the message that you’re hearing, though, in a certain sense is somewhat dependent on who’s proclaiming it.

Look at it this way: if you went to the average Joe on the street and asked about your chest pains, you might get a valid answer. Then again, since he hasn’t been appointed as a valid medical practitioner… you might not. On the other hand, if you go to a physician who is trained by the highest authorities, and given credentials to practice medicine, then you can trust what he says.

Does ‘Joe’ have a chance of getting it right? Yep. Can you be certain he’s right? Nope… all you have is your own personal subjective opinion on whether Joe’s a nice guy and seems to be reasonable.

I’ll go with the credentialed doctor, though.

 

[Justin_Mary]

so did he teach us not to trust God ?

Paul taught that what a lot of people thought was God speaking to them was not “the way”

hold fast to tradition, the teaching he taught from the beginning, look to the Church, the Pillar of truth.

 

[annad347]

I’ll go with the credentialed doctor, though.

and who is giving the credentials to the person who has the credentials you are placing your trust in… would He happen to be Jesus?

Which to another question… if the Apostles are given their authority by Jesus, and we trust, Jesus how can they then teach us not to trust Jesus, when Jesus is the One who gives the authority to those who are teach us they have the authority to teach us?

So did Paul or any of the Apostles for that matter, teach us not to trust God?

Paul taught that what a lot of people thought was God speaking to them was not “the way”

Yes, but did he teach us not to trust God, or is he warning us about trusting people who claim to be the voice of God?

 

[Justin_Mary]

Yes, but did he teach us not to trust God , or is he warning us about trusting people who claim to be the voice of God?

He’s warning us about the voice in our head. The only way to discern if that voice is Jesus or someone (something) else is to compare it to what the Church teaches.

The Holy Spirit is not going to reveal to any one individual anything that contradicts public revelation. The revelation we all received through the Gospel. The written word & the oral understanding given to & protected by the Church.

I don’t doubt that the Holy Spirit is leading you to the Lutheran & the Catholic Church. I don’t know why he would but who am I (or anyone) to question God’s counsel? But I know he is not telling you their communion & our communion is the same. Because that contradicts the truth the Catholic Church teaches. That contradicts the truth of Jesus’ own words (John 6). That contradicts everything God has taught his chosen people from the first moment he instructed them to perform sacrifices.