Quick question about The Catechism of the Catholic Church

[Gorgias]

All Leaders of All Churches, Baptist, Lutherans, Methodist, Catholic, they get together to discuss what unites all in God… so who with authority are you talking about?

The only ones with divine authority, in that list, are “Catholic clergy leaders”.

You are saying the same thing I just said

Hmm… it seemed to me that you were saying that we just leave folks to their errors.

 

[annad347]

The only ones with divine authority, in that list, are “Catholic clergy leaders”.

People with divine authority are not allowed to speak with people without divine authority to determine to what unites us all with God?

Hmm… it seemed to me that you were saying that we just leave folks to their errors.

Actually all I said was you said the same thing I said… so if that’s what I said you said it as well.

Want to reread what I said to figure out what was similar in our comments and tell me specifically when I said to leave people to their own errors?

 

[Gorgias]

People with divine authority are not allowed to speak with people without divine authority to determine to what unites us all with God?

No, what I’m saying is that teaching should be the province of those who have been given divine authority to teach. (Note that I’m not saying that there should be no Sunday School teachers other than bishops; I’m saying that only the magisterium has the authority to establish teaching. Others, naturally, can subsequently spread that teaching.)

Want to reread what I said to figure out what was similar in our comments and tell me specifically when I said to leave people to their own errors?

Sure!

The blame is on man, who teaches the truth in the importance of the Eucharist. Man can not read the hearts and mind of the person taking in the Eucharist so they have to have faith the person who is receiving the Eucharist is receiving in through the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

They have to have faith through the Holy Spirit the person receiving the Eucharist understands the importance of the Eucharist becoming the body and blood of Christ, it’s meaning, and your desire to become one with Christ.

I took this to mean that you were saying that people “who teach the truth in the importance of the Eucharist” “have to have faith through the Holy Spirit [that] the person receiving the Eucharist understands… the Eucharist.”

Is that what you meant, or am I misunderstanding you?

In other words: where St Paul teaches the Corinthians about “eating and drinking judgment on themselves”, it seemed that you were saying “St Paul should just have had faith that they knew and understood the Eucharist” (which they clearly didn’t, if he had to upbraid them in the way he did).

 

[annad347]

No, what I’m saying is that teaching should be the province of those who have been given divine authority to teach.

well I’m sure they know what they are doing.

Is that what you meant, or am I misunderstanding you?

Yes, you misunderstood… I said we lay the blame for competing and irreconcilable doctrines on man, not the Holy Spirit.

The person giving the Eucharist does it with faith the person receiving understands the significance, importance, basically everything that has to do with the Eucharist is taking it in good conscience… because only God knows the truth.

 

[Gorgias]

Gorgias:

No, what I’m saying is that teaching should be the province of those who have been given divine authority to teach.

well I’m sure they know what they are doing.

How can you make that claim, given the numerous examples that we can find – Scripturally and historically! – of non-apostolic teaching that was incorrect and had to be corrected?

The person giving the Eucharist does it with faith the person receiving understands the significance, importance, basically everything that has to do with the Eucharist is taking it in good conscience… because only God knows the truth.

OK… but the context wasn’t “taking the Eucharist”, it was “unauthorized teachers who teach wrongly about the Eucharist”, right? Maybe you just shifted the subject a little and I didn’t pick up on the shift.

I said we lay the blame for competing and irreconcilable doctrines on man, not the Holy Spirit.

Except… this invalidates your whole premise, which is that teaching is from the Holy Spirit if the person is of good will and attempting to find God. In this case, you’ve painted yourself into a corner: when you find someone who teaches “competing and irreconcilable doctrines”, your only recourse is to claim “well… they’re obviously not trying to find God, so their teachings are false and not Spirit-led.”

That forces you to make value judgments on teachers and denominations, every time you run across a pair of irreconcilable doctrines from competing denominations.

 

[annad347]

How can you make that claim, given the numerous examples that we can find – Scripturally and historically! – of non-apostolic teaching that was incorrect and had to be corrected?

Never mind, you don’t know what I’m talking about.

OK… but the context wasn’t “taking the Eucharist”, it was “unauthorized teachers who teach wrongly about the Eucharist”, right? Maybe you just shifted the subject a little and I didn’t pick up on the shift.

No, you claim only certain people with authority are qualified to teach the Eucharist… and if anyone else teaches the Eucharist is doing it incorrectly because they are not part of the group that is authorized to do so. Then you asked if competing and irreconcilable doctrines should be blame on the Holy Spirit guidance… I said no, competing and irreconcilable doctrines is blamed on man who try to take away from the true meaning and purpose of the Eucharist.

The Holy Spirit guides you to the truth of the Eucharist and God knows the truth. I asked you which was was more important, you take the Eucharist in the right church as a liar or taking the Eucharist in a church defined as the wrong church but with true love, understanding and devotion to God?

Except… this invalidates your whole premise, which is that teaching is from the Holy Spirit if the person is of good will and attempting to find God.

Actually, no it doesn’t, in fact you keep proven over and over again the Holy Spirit is the only trusting method we have to know those who teach God’s truth is actually capable of teaching it.

In this case, you’ve painted yourself into a corner: when you find someone, who teaches “competing and irreconcilable doctrines”, your only recourse is to claim “well… they’re obviously not trying to find God, so their teachings are false and not Spirit-led.”

That’s your only recourse.

My recourse is to ask more questions, like what’s the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Not be afraid to ask the tough questions, like explain why do you believe what you believe in certain doctrines. Another recourse for me is to join Bible study classes, read the Bible more carefully. But my number 1 recourse of course is prayer. To pray harder for the Holy Spirit to guide me so when I find myself painted in a corner, I can trust the Lord to help me, and not like the man stuck in the middle of the ocean.

That forces you to make value judgments on teachers and denominations, every time you run across a pair of irreconcilable doctrines from competing denominations.

Define judgment…

 

[Gorgias]

Never mind, you don’t know what I’m talking about.

OK… whatever…

No, you claim only certain people with authority are qualified to teach the Eucharist… and if anyone else teaches the Eucharist is doing it incorrectly because they are not part of the group that is authorized to do so.

No. I’m claiming that “only certain people with authority” are qualified to assert the doctrine. Folks are allowed to teach that doctrine all they want. (They cannot validly create new doctrine, or change the doctrine on their own initiative, but they can certainly share the authoritatively proclaimed teachings!)

The Holy Spirit guides you to the truth of the Eucharist and God knows the truth.

Great. So, let’s think about our average Evangelical friends. They don’t believe the truth about the Eucharist. Is the Holy Spirit guiding them to truth? Are they ignoring the Holy Spirit? Is the Holy Spirit guiding them to the less-than-true doctrines they believe?

My recourse is to ask more questions

Sure… for you and for your belief. We’re not talking about you, though: we’re talking about someone who “teaches competing and irreconcilable doctrines”. How do you characterize what they’re doing?

Define judgment…

Not “heaven and hell judgment” of the kind Christ tells us not to do. Just the question of discerning their actions (which we are told to do). So… what’s your discernment of their actions, when you see two groups of Christians in different denominations, making irreconcilable doctrinal statements?

 

[annad347]

No. I’m claiming that “only certain people with authority” are qualified to assert the doctrine. Folks are allowed to teach that doctrine all they want.

I have a feeling for the last few months we’ve been talking about 2 different groups of people. I’m talking about Catholic’s vs Non-Catholics… who are you talking about?

What specific doctrines are you talking about those from the Bible or those created by man to explain what was written in the Bible… and I’m just talking about the Catholic Bible, cause all my points came from that a Catholic Bible.

… They don’t believe the truth about the Eucharist.

If you don’t believe in the truth about the Eucharist, then what are we talking about, you have to believe in Jesus wanting you to remember Him by taking in the bread and wine that is His body and blood that was scarified for you. You can’t follow or ignore what you don’t believe.

… How do you characterize what they’re doing?

You have to be more specific which doctrines and what is being said… I think we’ve already 2 points, the Eucharist and Baptism.

Just the question of discerning their actions (which we are told to do).

I told you, base it on their words and actions. It’s not a do as I say, not as I do. Also are you taking about people teaching you God’s Truth or people in general.

How do you determine someone is using good judgment, like the boy taking your daughter out on a date or the doctor who is taking care of your families health?

So… what’s your discernment of their actions, when you see two groups of Christians in different denominations, making irreconcilable doctrinal statements?

again are we talking Biblical doctrine… like the difference between the Catholic Bible and a Lutheran Bible… or man’s doctrine interpreted from what is written in the Bible?

Simple talk about it (be specific, ask the hard questions… like why?), pray about it, trust in the Lord to make the His truth clear and understood. If you both walk away still disagreeing, continue to love each other, talk to each other and pray for each other and trust God knows what He’s doing, even if it’s beyond your understanding.

You know I don’t think you ever asked me why I believe God allows me to go to two different churches each week or what are some of the things in the Catholic church I don’t agree with… if you did totally missed it.

You heard I’m not fully in agreement with the Catholic church, so you felt it was your job to correct me, by showing me how wrong I was about everything including my prayers to God.

Then you top it all off by tell me I have need to be careful with the people, including priest I speak with in the Catholic church because they might not all be teaching correctly… wow, that made me feel safe. {{sigh}}

so what was your question again?

 

[Justin_Mary]

again are we talking Biblical doctrine… like the difference between the Catholic Bible and a Lutheran Bible… or man’s doctrine interpreted from what is written in the Bible?

Just an aside, has nothing to do with the conversation at hand.

But the way I see it, the denominations interpret scripture & develop their doctrine. This is not the way the Catholic Church or the Orthodox develop doctrine.

Jesus taught his Apostles, they taught their Bishops. One day the Bishops said, “We should collect the writings that express our doctrine.”

That’s a simplified take on how I see it.

 

[annad347]

Just an aside, has nothing to do with the conversation at hand.

that’s why I asked @Gorgias what he’s talking about.

 

[Gorgias]

I’m talking about Catholic’s vs Non-Catholics… who are you talking about?

I’m talking about the Catholic Church (who has divine authority to establish doctrine) and anyone else (who doesn’t have divine authority to establish doctrine).

What specific doctrines are you talking about those from the Bible or those created by man to explain what was written in the Bible

The Church compiled the Bible. There’s no distinction there: both are teaching that proceeds from the Church, given Christ’s ministry on earth.

and I’m just talking about the Catholic Bible, cause all my points came from that a Catholic Bible.

Who ever claimed that doctrine only comes from the Bible?

If you don’t believe in the truth about the Eucharist, then what are we talking about

We’re talking about the fact that you claim that all Christians teach correct doctrine because they’re led by the Holy Spirit to God.

You can’t follow or ignore what you don’t believe.

Then you shouldn’t teach – contrary to the teachings of the Church – what you believe differently. After all, that wouldn’t be “being led by the Spirit to God”, would it?

You have to be more specific which doctrines and what is being said… I think we’ve already 2 points, the Eucharist and Baptism.

Fine.

Are Christian denominations that teach that the Eucharist is merely a symbol and not the Body and Blood of Christ being “led by the Spirit to God” in their teaching?

Are Christian denominations that teach that baptism does not justify, but is merely an outward sign of an already existing reality, being “led by the Spirit to God” in their teaching?

 

[Gorgias]

I told you, base it on their words and actions. It’s not a do as I say, not as I do. Also are you taking about people teaching you God’s Truth or people in general.

You’ve claimed that Christians who call on the Holy Spirit are led by the Spirit to God. If their words and actions differ from true doctrine… are they being led by the Spirit to God?

again are we talking Biblical doctrine

Yes.

like the difference between the Catholic Bible and a Lutheran Bible

Who has the right and authority to compile a Bible and declare canon?

or man’s doctrine interpreted from what is written in the Bible?

You’re making a distinction where there is none: the Bible, and the Catholic Church’s teaching, both proceed from the Catholic Church; both proceed from Christ’ grant of authority to teach; both proceed from Jesus’ ministry and teaching. There’s no distinction there, even if you try to draw a line.

You heard I’m not fully in agreement with the Catholic church, so you felt it was your job to correct me, by showing me how wrong I was about everything including my prayers to God.

I’m pointing out what I believe to be true about the faith. “My job to correct you”? That sounds rather negative! James 5:19-20 – our “job” (as Christians) is to lead each other from error to truth!

by showing me how wrong I was about everything including my prayers to God.

Not everything. Not even about prayers. Just about where truth is found, and how where know where we find truth.

Then you top it all off by tell me I have need to be careful with the people

…the people who aren’t the magisterium.

including priest I speak with in the Catholic church because they might not all be teaching correctly

I have no idea what your priest told you.

 

[annad347]

@Gorgias what you just posted tells me, you did not read any of the words I posted for the last few months, didnt understand it or just ignored it and emphasizes what I said is true with you, a while back… if it doesn’t come from the Catholic Church it’s a lie…and you have every right to say that… just like I have every right to question some things.

Since we already talked about everything you just asked me about in this post… Except I believe the Bible was breathed out by the Holy Spirit guiding those who wrote it as well as those who put it together… so it is my main source to learn God’s truth. Actually I think we discussed this as well, and I used scripture… in fact I think I used scripture to explain most of my beliefs… so if you want to start over read the older post, first then ask me about something I didnt answer.

 

[Gorgias]

if it doesn’t come from the Catholic Church it’s a lie

No, that’s not what I’m saying.

But… if it’s a doctrinal teaching that doesn’t come from the Church (especially if it’s a teaching that’s in conflict with the Church’s teachings), how might we assess it?

I believe the Bible was breathed out by the Holy Spirit guiding those who wrote it as well as those who put it together… so it is my main source to learn God’s truth.

So… people with authority taught, and those same people with authority compiled the Bible. And only the Bible is your main source?

 

[Julius_Caesar]

Who ever claimed that doctrine only comes from the Bible?

We have yet to find a quotation for this.

 

[annad347]

We’re talking about the fact that you claim that all Christians teach correct doctrine because they’re led by the Holy Spirit to God.

that is not what I said, I said the Holy Spirit will never lead you away from God and will always lead you to God’s Truth. Not once did I say everyone who says they are following the Holy Spirit are telling the truth or teaching correctly.

Who ever claimed that doctrine only comes from the Bible?

Where would it come from if not from Scripture?

If their words and actions differ from true doctrine… are they being led by the Spirit to God?

If it goes against God then they are not being lead by the Holy Spirit… I said that before.

…the people who aren’t the magisterium.

Who are the people in the Magisterium?

But… if it’s a doctrinal teaching that doesn’t come from the Church…

Then who is the Church?

 

[annad347]

John 16 When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own, but will speak whatever he hears, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. He will glorify me, because he will take what is mine and declare it to you. All that the Father has is mine. For this reason, I said that he will take what is mine and declare it to you. (13-15)

2 Timothy 3 All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, so that everyone who belongs to God may be proficient, equipped for every good work. (16-17)

2 Peter 1 First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, because no prophecy ever came by human will, but men and women moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God. (20-21)

1 Thessalonians 1 For we know, brothers and sisters beloved by God, that he has chosen you, because our message of the gospel came to you not in word only, but also in power and in the Holy Spirit and with full conviction; just as you know what kind of persons we proved to be among you for your sake. (4-5)

…And only the Bible is your main source?

With the Holy Spirit, it’s pretty big one… Yes.

 

[Elf01]

Except I believe the Bible was breathed out by the Holy Spirit guiding those who wrote it as well as those who put it together…

How many books did he breathe?

 

[Gorgias]

Where would it come from if not from Scripture?

All doctrine comes from Jesus. The transmission of that teaching was entrusted to the apostles. Some of it, they wrote down. All of it, they (and their successors) teach. So, the source of the teaching isn’t “the Bible”, as such, but “Jesus, as transmitted by the apostles and their successors”. In other words… Church teaching.

If it goes against God then they are not being lead by the Holy Spirit… I said that before.

Cool. So, if we’ve got two groups of non-Catholic Christians, and they teach opposite things, then at least one “is not being led by the Holy Spirit”? And, if we’ve got a Catholic teaching, and a non-Catholic Christian teaching, and they’re opposites, and the Catholic Church has been given the authority to teach Jesus’ message by Jesus himself, then the non-Catholic Christian group “is not being led by the Holy Spirit”?

 

[annad347]

How many books did he breathe?

As many and He needed.

So, the source of the teaching isn’t “the Bible”, as such, but “Jesus, as transmitted by the apostles and their successors”. In other words… Church teaching.

The other source is Jesus Christ through the power of the Holy Spirit.

Who are the people in the Magisterium?

Who is the Church?

and the Catholic Church has been given the authority to teach Jesus’ message by Jesus himself, then the non-Catholic Christian group “is not being led by the Holy Spirit”?

Then when when I say you believe if it’s not from the Catholic Church it’s a lie… You say that’s not what you’re saying, if that’s exactly what your saying?