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Montrose
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The Torah is Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy.
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Elf01
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If I think something is Scripture dors that make it scripture for me?
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Julius_Caesar
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Sufficient is nowhere in that verse. And what is more accurate in the Greek is, “the man of God.” Specifically referring to the clergy.
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annad347
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What do you consider Scripture?
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Elf01
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It’s a yes no question that shouldn’t require me to state what I consider Scripture.
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annad347
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No but it does say… training in righteousness, so that everyone who belongs to God may be proficient, equipped for every good work… everyone who belongs to God.
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Julius_Caesar
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No. It’s been rendered that way by your version. The correct translation is man of God.
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annad347
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It’s not a yes or no question… how am I suppose to know how you think?
The Catechism of the Catholic Church say…
- Sacred Scripture is the speech of God as it is put down in writing under the breath of the Holy Spirit."
HIGH FIVE TO SELF look at me using the CCC.
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Gorgias
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Not sure what you’re asking. Are you asking whether I’m denying the working of the Holy Spirit? (I’m not, BTW.) Or something else?
As the Bible itself tells us, not all that Jesus did is recorded in the Bible. So… no! The apostles – who spent three years with Jesus, watching, listening, learning, getting “trained up” – taught “Jesus’ message”, not “the Bible”.
As Catholics, we believe that Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition (i.e., apostolic teaching) do go hand in hand, but they’re not identical.
Hopefully, this doesn’t come off as sounding like a boatload of hubris…
- Let’s suppose that the Church that Jesus founded and imbued with authority to teach (i.e., the Catholic Church) makes a doctrinal statement, such as “Jesus Christ is the Second Person of the Trinity, who was made incarnate, suffered, died, and rose on the third day.”
- If someone teaches this doctrine, then it’s true.
- It doesn’t matter if this person is Pastor Bob at the non-denom church down the street, or your local Catholic priest, or whoever they are: it’s true because the Church that Jesus founded and imbued with the authority to teach has actually taught this as doctrinal truth, and not because they’re the one saying so.
- Let’s suppose the Catholic Church makes another doctrinal statement: “those who die in a state of mortal sin will not experience heaven.”
- If someone says something that conflicts with this doctrine (e.g., “once saved, always saved” or “you are saved by faith alone” or even “God is a loving God; He would never allow anyone to experience eternal damnation”), then it’s wrong regardless who says it. It’s wrong because it’s in conflict with the authoritative teaching of the Catholic Church.
- Let’s suppose that there’s something that the Catholic Church doesn’t proclaim as a doctrine (for instance, the fate of infants who die without baptism).
- If someone makes a declaration that asserts a positive doctrine that isn’t taught by the Church (e.g., “with certainty, all babies go to heaven” or “anyone who dies without baptism cannot be saved”), then we would say “you’re mistaken; that’s not a teaching of the Church”.
- If anyone offers a commentary on the matter (e.g., “I believe that babies go to Limbo” (or ‘heaven’, or ‘hell’), then we say “well… that’s your opinion, then.”
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Gorgias
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You said “what if your teacher”, by which I understood you to mean a person.
So, here’s the thing: 2 Tim 3:16 only says that Scripture is useful. And… it is! A couple of thoughts, though:
- what it doesn’t say is that Scripture teaches. Rather, it’s useful in the act of teaching. Teachers teach. Scripture is extraordinarily useful in that endeavor.
- it doesn’t make the claim that the Bible is the rule of faith, let alone the sole rule of faith. So, this passage does not support the notion of “sola scriptura” (or even “prima scriptura”).
- Although “all Scripture … is useful for teaching”, this passage doesn’t claim that all interpretations of Scripture are valid. Since teaching is a human endeavor, and Scripture is a work of literature (albeit divinely inspired literature), it’s not the case that everyone who points to Scripture and attempts to interpret it will be interpreting correctly.
I’m glad that you recognize that Scripture is a ‘tool’ which can be put to good use. However, since it is a ‘tool’ for humans to use, it can be put to bad use, too. Imagine that Scripture were a hammer. You could use that hammer to drive nails into a board in order to build something good. However, you could also use the hammer to smash a window and rob a bank. As a tool, Scripture must be wielded well and correctly in order for it to be “useful.”
Already asked and answered, no?
And the word of Christ is taught by the Church that Jesus founded and to whom He gave authority. Whether that teaching comes from the mouth of apostles or their successors, or is taught with the use of Scripture as an aid, it’s still apostolic teaching that’s in play here.
Well, let’s see what @1Lord1Faith has to say, in order to support his assertions…
Not everyone who belongs to God is a teacher. St Paul says precisely this in the Bible!
To be fair, the Greek says ἄνθρωπος and not ἀνήρ. So, it’s talking about a person, not a male as such.
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Julius_Caesar
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The point is, it’s not as universal as @annad347 thinks.
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Gorgias
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Perhaps. Yet, since it doesn’t mean “male”, I’m not certain you can make the claim that it means “priest” or “bishop”…
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Julius_Caesar
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It’s been translated as that until recently. So I can.
And let’s not forget who’s Paul’s audience is.
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Gorgias
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Inasmuch as you understand anthropos as “human”? Sure. Inasmuch as you misconstrue it to mean “male”? Not so much. So… you can’t.
Men and women who are Christians, perhaps?
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Julius_Caesar
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No. Hint: it’s a presbyter.
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Gorgias
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LOL! You know that the Letters to Timothy were read to all Christians, in the context of the liturgy… right?
In any case, your assertion makes your case even weaker. If Paul is speaking to a presbyter, and says “anthropos”, then it’s pretty clear that he’s pointing to all Christians, and not just that one single guy.
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Julius_Caesar
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Just because something is read in public doesn’t mean it automatically follows that you’re the person this is meant for. Otherwise, you andI would be Protestants. :man_shrugging:t6:
Still not following. If Paul’s speaking to a presbyter and uses “anthropos” it applies to all presbyters.
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Elf01
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It is and you’re trying to dodge.
According to you
From that I get the impression that if I consider something Scripture then it’s Scripture for me.
If that’s not ehat you meamt to imply then what did you?
And you don’t need to know my definition of Scripture or exactly what books I consider Scripture to answer it.
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Gorgias
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LOL!
Nevertheless, if it were meant purely as personal correspondence, then it wouldn’t have been read at liturgies… and, it therefore would never had entered the canon of Scripture!
I still think you’re interpreting it far too narrowly.
Yes, the form of address in this chapter is first person singular, so he’s talking to Timothy here (although I still maintain that it’s relevant to all Christians).
Nevertheless, there are a couple of features of the text which argue against your interpretation:
- The bulk of the chapter uses direct address, in the second person singular:
- “You have followed” (v10),
- “you, remain faithful” (v14),
- “from infancy, you have known” and “giving you wisdom” (v15).
- However, in v16, he changes his form of address. It goes from active to passive.
- In v17, he doesn’t say “so that you may be competent”. Rather, he stays impersonal: “so that God’s person may be competent.” If he had meant this to apply to Timothy, then why not write “you”, as he had throughout the letter?
- Moreover, in Catholic theology, who needs to be “equipped for every good work”? Only priests and bishops? Hardly! EVERYONE is called to perform good works, and therefore, EVERYONE must be equipped to perform them.
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Julius_Caesar
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Not purely but great weight is based on the audience. And it’s not your average Christian. It’s a leader.
God’s person applies heavily to Timothy as he like Paul speaks for God. We do not all speak for God.
It also hurts for it to be for every average Christian if a bishop is addressed personally in it.
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