Quick! (Take 2)

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But given the fact that you didn’t even know where StPaul wrote against those abusing the Eucharist i know your actuall knowledge of St.Paul is quite petite.
You two realize it is exactly this kind of bickering that split the church into a hundred Protestant factions that make up Christianity as we have it today, right? Sure, Martin Luther had a bit more than a grudge disputing the church in his day, but it was pretty much nit picking over scripture and how best to spend the money from the church bake sale after that.
 
You two realize it is exactly this kind of bickering that split the church into a hundred Protestant factions that make up Christianity as we have it today, right? Sure, Martin Luther had a bit more than a grudge disputing the church in his day, but it was pretty much nit picking over scripture and how best to spend the money from the church bake sale after that.
hey you said he was witty.😃

Exactly now who can step in and say which one of us is right?
And why should either of us follow that person’s decsion?
 
hey you said he was witty.😃

Exactly now who can step in and say which one of us is right?
And why should either of us follow that person’s decsion?
No, I said in a battle of wits, Alan is very well armed.

There is another option to your question: you could each ‘agree to disagree’ and be nice.

He has showed you, O man, what is good. And what does the LORD require of you? To act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God. - Micah 6:8
 
You do hold to the Tritrian beleif? There are many that love God as much as you do yet do not beleive that Jesus is not the Father or Holy Spirit but he, Jesus Christ, is the Father and the Holy Spirit. Is this beleif equal to yours as a true path to God?
I meant to ask this earlier, but the posts were flying fast & I forgot.

Did you mean to ask if I believed in the Trinity? If that is the case, the answer is, Yes. In fact, I posted a thread discussing the nature of a trinity (not to be mistaken as having a discussion about the nature of the Holy Trinity) here: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=754770
 
Alan reread your passages again particulary the part where St.Paul says do not eat of it not for your own conscience but that of the other, (the one who offered the food). Does St.Paul do as the other in eating the food offered to an idol. no why? Because by eating this offering he is ediffying the offer of food to an idol in the conscience of the person giving him the food.

When approached by something novel i assume the person presenting this novel idea is knowlegable of the matter. As you are presenting a novel idea of St.Paul i assumed you had a greater knowledge of his writings. But given the fact that you didn’t even know where StPaul wrote against those abusing the Eucharist i know your actuall knowledge of St.Paul is quite petite.
Whatever you say, boss! 👍

Alan
 
I meant to ask this earlier, but the posts were flying fast & I forgot.

Did you mean to ask if I believed in the Trinity? If that is the case, the answer is, Yes. In fact, I posted a thread discussing the nature of a trinity (not to be mistaken as having a discussion about the nature of the Holy Trinity) here: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=754770
I guessed that you did hold to the tritrian beleif.
To which you replied that their path was equal to yours as a means to God.

However as i posted later that holding this beleif ( non tritrian) as an equal to ours is not what Jesus wanted. St.John 17:20.
 
  1. Can I be Catholic and not believe in the infallibility of the Pope?
First, I’d suggest you do a LOT of study on just exactly what “infallibility” means before you use it as any kind of decision maker. It means different things to different people. I believe that “infallibility” actually pertains to “ex cathedra” announcements. Literally, “from the chair” as in, of one’s position.

Personally I have no problem with the Pope being making ex cathedra announcements, as the right given to him by the chair. He is allowed to say what is sinful and what is not, according to the Church. Because he is in charge of the Church. So he is infallible as in there is no second-guessing allowed within the Church.

There are two problems I have with it. First, there is apparently no systematic way to determine whether any given pronouncement by a pope is ex cathedra. It usually ends up in matters of opinion among whoever is arguing about it. For example I’ve seen extended discussions among what seemed like scholars, over the wording and how certain phrases make it “more likely” that a pope was writing ex cathedra on any given document. I’ve even seen lengthy threads debating whether “Humanae Vitae,” or portions of it, is ex cathedra. So to me there is a definition problem. And as far as I’ve been able to figure out, there is no one particular authority who can decisively pronounce whether any given document is ex cathedra. If I’m wrong about that, I’m begging somebody to tell me who can actually make such a determination, and how we are supposed to access the decisions of that person(s).

The second problem is with the idea that everything a pope says, that is somehow determined to be ex cathedra, is the Absolute Truth of God. In other words, its authority carries beyond the Catholic Church and applies to everything even non-Catholic. I honestly don’t know if this is what is meant by ex cathedra, but if it is then I’m not necessarily able to believe it.

And I say “able to believe it” because I cannot just decide what I believe. I can decide what I profess, and I can wish I believed something, and I can pretend I believe it, but my “core beliefs” are not subject to my will. I either believe something or I don’t. I might fool someone into thinking I do or don’t believe something, even myself. So I reject the notion that we “must” believe or we are in a state of sin. Because IMO belief is not subject to will, and without a will to sin there is no sin. Except possible for what people have recently posted on other threads that even honest mistakes and accidents are venial sins, although I’m not buying that at this time.

That said, come on and join the Church. Really, we have everything. Yes we have our disagreements, but so does every religion, including atheism. And of course on this forums we all think we’re geniuses and others who disagree are “less than.” 😛 But if you know where to look, you will find an amazingly rich treasure trove of information and ideas and resources and traditions that can help with the spiritual journey, that I suspect is unmatched by other religions – western ones, anyway. 👍

Alan
 
Well you can be a catholic and not beleive in the infallibity of the pope’s postion.But you would be a catholic that is in sin/error.
When the pope is infallible in matters of faith and morals invovles a more complex mechanism than the simplified terms we have been using.
Basically the pope does not sit down one day and decide hey let’s beleive this.

The ability to do so by the priests is given to them by Christ through the succession of the Church.
You have no trouble beleiving the Apostle’s had this ability. As it was given to them by Christ. Would not Christ’s Church continue to be able to do so?
So my only option is to be a bad catholic? That’s it? That feels kinda hopeless. 😦
 
I guessed that you did hold to the tritrian beleif.
To which you replied that their path was equal to yours as a means to God.

However as i posted later that holding this beleif ( non tritrian) as an equal to ours is not what Jesus wanted. St.John 17:20.
What are talking about? What path is equal who’s?:confused:
 
No, I said in a battle of wits, Alan is very well armed.

There is another option to your question: you could each ‘agree to disagree’ and be nice.

He has showed you, O man, what is good. And what does the LORD require of you? To act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God. - Micah 6:8
and what does that settle,agreeing to disagree? the issue is still not resolved and thus me and Alan are not of one mind. St.Paul’s 1st Epistle to the Corintihians 1:10
be nice? i am a catholic bound in rites and legalisms what do i know of being nice.😃
 
i You do hold to the Tritrian beleif? There are many that love God as much as you do yet do not beleive that Jesus is not the Father or Holy Spirit but he, Jesus Christ, is the Father and the Holy Spirit. Is this beleif equal to yours as a true path to God?
I don’t think I understand this question. How other people find their way to God, what their understanding of God is - is their choice. I respect each persons right to decide this for themselves, as long as it doesn’t oppress or take away another’s liberty.
In the Gospel written by St.John17:21 “that all may be one,even as thoug, Father,in me and I in thee”.
Clearly we are not one with another that does not hold the same beliefs as ourselves…
there is a group that goes by the handle of “oneness pentacostal.”
they hold a non tritrian beleif.
 
First, I’d suggest you do a LOT of study on just exactly what “infallibility” means before you use it as any kind of decision maker. It means different things to different people. I believe that “infallibility” actually pertains to “ex cathedra” announcements. Literally, “from the chair” as in, of one’s position.

Alan
I’m still making my way through your post (for which I am thankful :)) - but I only see ‘infallible’ as an adjective meaning Incapable of making mistakes or being wrong.
 
I’m still making my way through your post (for which I am thankful :)) - but I only see ‘infallible’ as an adjective meaning Incapable of making mistakes or being wrong.
Yeah, that makes sense. If I’m not mistaken the Catholic term for the ability to do no wrong is “impeccability,” which we do not attribute to the pope.

Alan
 
Yeah, that makes sense. If I’m not mistaken the Catholic term for the ability to do no wrong is “impeccability,” which we do not attribute to the pope.

Alan
hey we agree.
you caught on to my other post too i see allan.🙂
 
Personally I have no problem with the Pope being making ex cathedra announcements, as the right given to him by the chair. He is allowed to say what is sinful and what is not, according to the Church. Because he is in charge of the Church. So he is infallible as in***** there is no second-guessing allowed within the Church.*****

Alan
  1. Chairs do not give rights - people make decisions and other people either abide by their decisions or not. I know you are using it as a figure of speech, but this idea that ‘who ever holds this title is incapable of being wrong and we all agree and never question it’ makes my head hurt. :ouch:
  2. No second guessing allowed in the church? Then why are you and fbl9 debating about Paul - and while I’m at it - what is a tritrain? I thought it was a typo, but apparently not, and I can’t get the image of a 3-headed train out of my head.
 
  1. Chairs do not give rights - people make decisions and other people either abide by their decisions or not. I know you are using it as a figure of speech, but this idea that ‘who ever holds this title is incapable of being wrong and we all agree and never question it’ makes my head hurt. :ouch:
  2. No second guessing allowed in the church? Then why are you and fbl9 debating about Paul - and while I’m at it - what is a tritrain? I thought it was a typo, but apparently not, and I can’t get the image of a 3-headed train out of my head.
Here’s all I’m saying.

Rule #1.) The boss is always right.
Rule #2.) If the boss is wrong, refer to rule #1.

I have my own ideas, which often but not always match what the Church says. But the pope gets to define what the Church says, and I don’t get a vote. I do however get to disagree, as long as I don’t claim that my view is the Church’s. Some others think you cannot disagree with anything the Church teaches and still be Catholic, but in fact that is not what the Church teaches either. Once Catholic, we are Catholic until death regardless of what we do or say – even renouncing our Catholicism. I’m not interested in debate whether it’s a sin because afa I’m concerned it isn’t a sin for me, and my pastor knows what I think and supports me. Others are welcome to consider it sinful if they don’t believe something they think they ought to; I don’t play that no more – blaming/shaming myself for believing what I honestly believe has proven destructive for me.

Do I think the Church’s teachings are 100% correct in all realms even outside the Church – in other words, so true that they also govern outside the Church? No. Others may think so, but not I.

Alan
 
and what does that settle,agreeing to disagree? the issue is still not resolved and thus me and Alan are not of one mind.
It doesn’t ‘settle’ anything - there is no winner in theological debate - you either respect another person’s right to disagree with you, or start your own church. 😃
 
  1. Chairs do not give rights - people make decisions and other people either abide by their decisions or not. I know you are using it as a figure of speech, but this idea that ‘who ever holds this title is incapable of being wrong and we all agree and never question it’ makes my head hurt. :ouch:
  2. No second guessing allowed in the church? Then why are you and fbl9 debating about Paul - and while I’m at it - what is a tritrain? I thought it was a typo, but apparently not, and I can’t get the image of a 3-headed train out of my head.
i told you i am short on words. sorry typo.
tritarian, there i learned something today.😃
 
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