Quick! (Take 2)

[Offdoodykcrn]

If you would like to seek an annulment from your first husband (if he is still living), please meet with the parish priest and begin the process. You were baptized Catholic (if I remember correctly). A baptized Catholic not married within the Church probably would be granted an annulment.

Peace.

Nope, I was not baptized in the Catholic Church, although I did receive a Christian baptism. My first husband did not receive any kind of baptism, his parents were a combination of lapsed catholic and godless heathen - and I was a month shy of my 18th birthday (and no, I wasn’t pregnant - just incredibly stupid, naive and depressed).

I do not imagine ever getting married again. I gave my heart to Doug and he took it with him to heaven. The only men I see a future with are mute cabana boys that don’t understand English. I don’t think that qualifies as marriage material. I stopped feeling damaged from my first marriage a long time ago, and don’t see how anyone else could say or do anything that would further ‘cleanse’ me.

 

[Offdoodykcrn]

Just beacuse one is loved by God does not mean one will be granted into the Kingdom. God’s love for us is not based on what we do. God’s judgement is based on what we do, and beleive.

Something for you to ponder Offdoodkycm: You claim that beacuse of the sins of the leaders of the Church you refuse to follow them as leaders, Yet you are not without sin but you still follow yourself in regards to what you beleive. How can you do that?

#1 - God gets to decide who gets into heaven. People might speculate, but I don’t think it matters.

#2 - I didn’t claim that I wouldn’t follow sinning leaders. I commented on the irony of the situation. You seem to have a tendency to make knee-jerk decisions - as evidenced of your posts in this thread. I would recommend that you read a post twice, wait 30 minutes and then read it again before making snap judgements.

 

[Offdoodykcrn]

I really like these ideas. It might be good for the OP to consider this possibility.

Alan

What is an OP?

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Nope, I was not baptized in the Catholic Church, although I did receive a Christian baptism. My first husband did not receive any kind of baptism, his parents were a combination of lapsed catholic and godless heathen - and I was a month shy of my 18th birthday (and no, I wasn’t pregnant - just incredibly stupid, naive and depressed).

I do not imagine ever getting married again. I gave my heart to Doug and he took it with him to heaven. The only men I see a future with are mute cabana boys that don’t understand English. I don’t think that qualifies as marriage material. I stopped feeling damaged from my first marriage a long time ago, and don’t see how anyone else could say or do anything that would further ‘cleanse’ me.

So it isn’t so much you want to know what the Church might do in your case, as much as you want to know – in cases that may be like this – what she teaches?

What is an OP?

Original Post of a thread, or the Original Poster who began the thread. I use it for either.

Alan

 

[RoseMary131]

Nope, I was not baptized in the Catholic Church, although I did receive a Christian baptism. My first husband did not receive any kind of baptism, his parents were a combination of lapsed catholic and godless heathen - and I was a month shy of my 18th birthday (and no, I wasn’t pregnant - just incredibly stupid, naive and depressed).

I do not imagine ever getting married again. I gave my heart to Doug and he took it with him to heaven. The only men I see a future with are mute cabana boys that don’t understand English. I don’t think that qualifies as marriage material. I stopped feeling damaged from my first marriage a long time ago, and don’t see how anyone else could say or do anything that would further ‘cleanse’ me.

I mistakenly thought when you were getting ready for Confirmation as a youth that you had received Baptism (within the Cathlic Church), Reconciliation, and Holy Communion.

When you were preparing for Confirmation as a youth, were you preparing to receive both Holy Communion and Confirmation - preparing to come into the Church?

 

[Offdoodykcrn]

So it isn’t so much you want to know what the Church might do in your case, as much as you want to know – in cases that may be like this – what she teaches?
Original Post of a thread, or the Original Poster who began the thread. I use it for either.
Alan

Thanks for the clarification - sometimes in these forums I have difficulty with abbreviations and verbiage - does the Catholic Church has its own dictionary?

Also (off topic) - is the spirituality sub-forum for the nuts in the catholic answers forum trail mix? I’m not complaining, quite frankly, I think it’s probably a good idea to keep some of the ideas raised in this forum away from those that might be too impressionable…

(Back on topic: what do I want to know about the church?) Remember back on page 2 when we were discussing the dangers of following people in power blindly? If I were to view Catholicism in a ‘black and white’ kind of way, I would want to understand how decisions are made, current attitudes and directions and how I fit in that construct.

Some things I really like (the beauty of the mass), some things I tolerate (male dominated, if I were interested in being a priest I would be on an Anglican Church forum - but I don’t, so it’s not an issue), and some things I’m trying to decide if I can live with or not: infallibility / impeccability of the pope, confession - more specifically the absolution of sin by a priest, and maybe a few others. My mom doesn’t agree with everything the Catholic Church teaches - she calls it being a ‘Far From Rome’ catholic - I think the term here is a ‘cafeteria catholic’ - where one picks and chooses what they want and keeps their mouth shut about the rest. I don’t think there is any organized religion, with which I will agree on everything. The Church and I differ on a number of issues, and I’m trying to sort through them. Is what I get from the church (a sense of community, spiritual guidance) of greater importance to me than being quiet on issues in which I disagree?

 

[Offdoodykcrn]

I mistakenly thought when you were getting ready for Confirmation as a youth that you had received Baptism (within the Cathlic Church), Reconciliation, and Holy Communion.

When you were preparing for Confirmation as a youth, were you preparing to receive both Holy Communion and Confirmation - preparing to come into the Church?

This was over 30 yrs ago - I think it was just confirmation. I attended a Catholic school from grades 5 - 8. My religious upbringing was mixed between my father’ church and my mom’s. It was confusing - I participated in Religion class with kids that had been born into the church. Since I had been baptized in my fathers church and had taken communion there, I continued to take communion when my mother took me to mass.

 

[aemcpa]

What is an OP?

“Original Poster”, aka you.

 

[aemcpa]

Thanks for the clarification - sometimes in these forums I have difficulty with abbreviations and verbiage - does the Catholic Church has its own dictionary?

Also (off topic) - is the spirituality sub-forum for the nuts in the catholic answers forum trail mix? I’m not complaining, quite frankly, I think it’s probably a good idea to keep some of the ideas raised in this forum away from those that might be too impressionable…

(Back on topic: what do I want to know about the church?) Remember back on page 2 when we were discussing the dangers of following people in power blindly? If I were to view Catholicism in a ‘black and white’ kind of way, I would want to understand how decisions are made, current attitudes and directions and how I fit in that construct.

Some things I really like (the beauty of the mass), some things I tolerate (male dominated, if I were interested in being a priest I would be on an Anglican Church forum - but I don’t, so it’s not an issue), and some things I’m trying to decide if I can live with or not: infallibility / impeccability of the pope, confession - more specifically the absolution of sin by a priest, and maybe a few others. My mom doesn’t agree with everything the Catholic Church teaches - she calls it being a ‘Far From Rome’ catholic - I think the term here is a ‘cafeteria catholic’ - where one picks and chooses what they want and keeps their mouth shut about the rest. I don’t think there is any organized religion, with which I will agree on everything. The Church and I differ on a number of issues, and I’m trying to sort through them. Is what I get from the church (a sense of community, spiritual guidance) of greater importance to me than being quiet on issues in which I disagree?

Infallibility (inability to teach error as truth) and impeccability (lack of ability to commit sin) are ENTIRELY different concepts. It is blasphemy to ascribe impeccability to anybody except Jesus Christ, to Whom we must ascribe it.

What is so hard to accept about the ability of priests to absolve sin? It’s one of the most explicit statements that Christ made in the entire four Gospels.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Also (off topic) - is the spirituality sub-forum for the nuts in the catholic answers forum trail mix? I’m not complaining, quite frankly, I think it’s probably a good idea to keep some of the ideas raised in this forum away from those that might be too impressionable…

I’ve been called much worse than a nut in trail mix, so count me in!

I see a lot of emphasis on intellectual knowledge of Church teachings, and I’d say that’s largely because this web site is owned and operated by apologists. An apologist is someone able to define exactly what the Church does teach. Except the ones I call the “wannabee apologists” who seem to stake their entire value as a human being on whether they can prove they are right and someone else is wrong. For my own taste, I like to listen to many different points of view, and I will compare/contrast, but I don’t feel like someone else has to be wrong for me to be right.

And you know what? It’s not my job that the Church’s teachings remain pure; here’s proof: they did not consult me on the latest revision of the Roman Missal. I don’t claim to be a theologian or an apologist; other members of the Body take care of that quite nicely.

My job is to at least follow the five precepts of the Church. And to do things to help my pastor, and acts of mercy. Those things are all for the good of the Church and the universal Body of Christ.

My personal take on it is that I will answer directly to God, and I’m not going to bring apologists with me to explain why I did things the way I did. I have to go based on my heartfelt belief, with my eyes and ears ever open, ready for new insights the Lord might bring me at any time and in any form. I keep my promises because I think if a man is worth no more than his word. But I don’t promise that no matter what the Church says about faith and morals, that I am going to automatically agree with it. That’s me, though. If I don’t question things I don’t learn anything. If what I think isn’t tested – such as against the Church and other people – then there is no way to know if I know it at all. You know?

My mom doesn’t agree with everything the Catholic Church teaches - she calls it being a ‘Far From Rome’ catholic - I think the term here is a ‘cafeteria catholic’ - where one picks and chooses what they want and keeps their mouth shut about the rest.

I’ve been accused of that, and that’s fine. They can call me what they want but when it boils down to it, God’s native language is silence to human ears. All of what Rome teaches about morals is good information especially before being born of the spirit. But contrary to what anybody says, anything that is written by human beings, in a human language, even if it is inspired by the Holy Spirit (and I believe a lot more is inspired than what most people probably think) then it is but a shadow, or a projection of God’s glory, not God’s glory itself. That’s why I learned contemplative prayer, and for me the Holy Spirit responded by giving me healing of both heart and mind, removed my psychosis and moodswings, brought me into the kingdom, and this all was without having to know information that is useless to me. Like what? Like stuff that doesn’t even apply to me, such as whether a couple who are already sinning by having premarital sex, are either a) being responsible, or b) committing a second even more serious sin, if they use a condom. That’s why I say let those who care argue about it…

(continued in next post)

 

[AlanFromWichita]

(continued from last post)

And frankly, I’ve been an übernerd for most of my life and all it got me was the lockup in the loony bin. Then it became a spiritual journey based on silent prayer (“resting in God”) Transforming Union, leading to Divine Union, that brought me to where I need to be. Of course I still learned everything I could about Catholic teachings – almost all I agree with, and even when I disagreed I at least want to understand what it is I’m disagreeing with. (It “helped” that since I lost my job I had over 50,000 hours over the years to study.) But really my “faith eyes” weren’t opened until I recognized how all of that other stuff is chasing after the wind, like in Ecclesiastes, and starting allowing the Holy Spirit direct access to my as open mind and heart as I can muster, getting my regular stream of thoughts and words out of the way.

Paul makes a comment about whether evangelization requires knowledge of complex teachings of the Church and our ability to eloquently state it:

1 cor 1:17-23
For Christ did not send me to baptize but to preach the gospel, and not with the wisdom of human eloquence, so that the cross of Christ might not be emptied of its meaning. The message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

For it is written:
“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise,
and the learning of the learned I will set aside.”

Where is the wise one? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made the wisdom of the world foolish? For since in the wisdom of God the world did not come to know God through wisdom, it was the will of God through the foolishness of the proclamation to save those who have faith. For Jews demand signs and Greeks look for wisdom, but we proclaim Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles,

I don’t think there is any organized religion, with which I will agree on everything. The Church and I differ on a number of issues, and I’m trying to sort through them. Is what I get from the church (a sense of community, spiritual guidance) of greater importance to me than being quiet on issues in which I disagree?

From that list, spiritual guidance would be my top concern and sense of community a close second. For sense of community, it could always be better; some parishes have a lot going on, but many don’t so much, but often there is plenty to do for someone who wants to “jump in” and help get things going.

For spiritual guidance, you couldn’t ask for a more complete library than what Catholics can bring. Mind you, I got a great benefit from listening to non-Catholic philosophers and preachers and teachers, because I am like that; I don’t want just one viewpoint; I like to know how our viewpoint compares to others. It’s like Catholics are based in a big house, and most want to stay inside in the safety. Well I am the adventurous sort and like to come back for a recharge and then go out into the wilderness again. I’m not afraid of comparing notes with “New Agers” or Buddhists about what they say v. what Jesus teaches. I see much more in common between religions than differences, when we get away from the intellectual dogmatic rule-following behavior contests, and seek Divine Union.

If you have never met St. John of the Cross, may I introduce you? He is one of a select handful of saints the Church calls “Doctors of the Church.” Here is a poem he wrote about the spiritual journey a soul takes in finding its lover. It is the basis of his book the Dark Night of the Soul:, the definitive text on spiritual transformation and contemplative purgation:

STANZAS OF THE SOUL

	1. One dark night,
	fired with love's urgent longings
	  -- ah, the sheer grace! -- 
	I went out unseen,
	my house being now all stilled.
	
	2. In darkness, and secure,
  	by the secret ladder, disguised,
	 -- ah, the sheer grace! -- 
	in darkness and concealment,
	my house being now all stilled.

	3. On that glad night,
  	in secret, for no one saw me,
	nor did I look at anything,
	with no other light or guide
	than the one that burned in my heart.

	4. This guided me
     	more surely than the light of noon
	to where he was awaiting me
	 -- him I knew so well -- 
	there in a place where no one appeared.

	5. O guiding night!
  	O night more lovely than the dawn!
	O night that has united
	the Lover with his beloved,
	transforming the beloved in her Lover.

	6. Upon my flowering breast
  	which I kept wholly for him alone,
	there he lay sleeping,
	and I caressing him
	there in a breeze from the fanning cedars.

	7. When the breeze blew from the turret,
  	as I parted his hair,
  	it wounded my neck
	with its gentle hand,
	suspending all my senses.

	8. I abandoned and forgot myself,
  	laying my face on my Beloved;
	all things ceased; I went out from myself,
	leaving my cares
	forgotten among the lilies.

Alan

 

[Offdoodykcrn]

Infallibility (inability to teach error as truth) and impeccability (lack of ability to commit sin) are ENTIRELY different concepts. It is blasphemy to ascribe impeccability to anybody except Jesus Christ, to Whom we must ascribe it.

What is so hard to accept about the ability of priests to absolve sin? It’s one of the most explicit statements that Christ made in the entire four Gospels.

Sorry - I was never given the catholic version of the dictionary. When discussing this earlier in the thread, both terms were thrown around. I never said the pope was impeccable - quite frankly, I struggle with the concept that a human being can be infallible about anything. Running around yelling, ‘blasphemy’ does not conjure warm feelings about the church, either. Christ gave his apostles the the ability to absolve sins, the bible doesn’t say anything about a church with a complex hierarchy as that of Catholicism imbuing priests with the same supernatural power.

I do not mean to insult anyone. I am doing my best to get through this difficult spiritual journey. Please take it as a complement that I have made it this far. In the past, when I was told that I must believe everything the church espouses or not belong at all - I decided not to join. If everyone was hooked up to a lie detector and asked how much of church doctrine they agree with - and you dismissed everyone that didn’t agree, how large of a congregation do you think you would be left with?

 

[Offdoodykcrn]

Thank you, Alan - for sharing your thoughts, your story and the work of St. John of the Cross. In you, I see a kindred spirit, someone that needs to evaluate new information with the same level of scrutiny that I wish didn’t come so naturally to me.

Thank you, RoseMary. Your kind council has been a welcome comfort.

Thank you, fbl9 and (as much as it may pain me…) aemcpa, for keeping me on my toes. It takes conviction to hold on to one’s beliefs in the face of challenge. I admire your tenacity and passion.

If I knew you all personally, I would bake you some chocolate chip cookies for some, and bran muffins for others. Both are good for you, but often have different effects.

 

[fbl9]

#1 - God gets to decide who gets into heaven. People might speculate, but I don’t think it matters.

#2 - I didn’t claim that I wouldn’t follow sinning leaders. I commented on the irony of the situation. You seem to have a tendency to make knee-jerk decisions - as evidenced of your posts in this thread. I would recommend that you read a post twice, wait 30 minutes and then read it again before making snap judgements.

1. isn’t that what i said? It is God who judges us.

2)may i make the same suggestion to you as well for my question stemmed not from post in which i quoted but from your previous comments about the sins of the relgious leaders and how that convinces you that they can not be correct on certain things… Either you do not want me to post at all or are willing to read some long rambling thing. For if i really did as you suggested, i would either forget my train of thought or have so many different ideas and angles in one post it would make you even dizzier.

now about the baking, do you really want me to mull that one over

 

[Offdoodykcrn]

1)Either you do not want me to post at all or are willing to read some long rambling thing. For if i really did as you suggested, i would either forget my train of thought or have so many different ideas and angles in one post it would make you even dizzier.

now about the baking, do you really want me to mull that one over

Dear fbl9,

I don’t want you give up posting - on this, or any other thread. If you look in post #113, I thanked you personally for your contribution. Don’t get me wrong - you drive me crazy. You have, on more than one occasion, taken something I said and assumed I meant something else and then pounced on it like cat with only one eye chasing a mouse, (see posts 96, 99, 102, and 114 for one example) - however, some of my favorite people drive my crazy in exactly the same way. I am nearly certain I drive other people to the same level of distraction, for the exact same reasons. It is not a flaw in our characters - it is simply a result of being human.

Some people may read this entire thread (for which, there should be a special badge for tenacity) and think we are enemies. This is not so. We both care enough about the other and our beliefs to discuss them with each other - and we both love German Shepherds. This alone is enough for me to like you. If it makes you feel any better, aemcpa makes me just, if not more crazy - but I like aemcpa, too.

I am here to engage others in conversation about Catholicism, philosophy, and life in general on this planet. It is not just my own future I am concerned about. Sometimes I am drawn to respond to others questions (I felt particularly compelled to respond here: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=757997 ) and I felt really good after throwing in my two cents. Maybe it was just luck, maybe Divine intervention - but it is my hope that ‘Lovethelord23’ reads what I posted there and feels better about his (or her) place in the world and feels their faith restored, or at least - a little bit less alone.

So keep up the good work, fbl9 - and everyone else!

Peace

 

[fbl9]

Dear fbl9,

I don’t want you give up posting - on this, or any other thread. If you look in post #113, I thanked you personally for your contribution. Don’t get me wrong - you drive me crazy. You have, on more than one occasion, taken something I said and assumed I meant something else and then pounced on it like cat with only one eye chasing a mouse, (see posts 96, 99, 102, and 114 for one example) - however, some of my favorite people drive my crazy in exactly the same way. I am nearly certain I drive other people to the same level of distraction, for the exact same reasons. It is not a flaw in our characters - it is simply a result of being human.

Some people may read this entire thread (for which, there should be a special badge for tenacity) and think we are enemies. This is not so. We both care enough about the other and our beliefs to discuss them with each other - and we both love German Shepherds. This alone is enough for me to like you. If it makes you feel any better, aemcpa makes me just, if not more crazy - but I like aemcpa, too.

I am here to engage others in conversation about Catholicism, philosophy, and life in general on this planet. It is not just my own future I am concerned about. Sometimes I am drawn to respond to others questions (I felt particularly compelled to respond here: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=757997 ) and I felt really good after throwing in my two cents. Maybe it was just luck, maybe Divine intervention - but it is my hope that ‘Lovethelord23’ reads what I posted there and feels better about his (or her) place in the world and feels their faith restored, or at least - a little bit less alone.

So keep up the good work, fbl9 - and everyone else!

Peace

More than once my humour is lost on people, as are my thoughts.
It is all neat and tidy in my brain but when i put it in words it becomes a train wreck.

Earlier you said to the effect that you do not condemn people but pray they find their way to God whether that be the same path as yours or some entirely different path. Which we all want, for people to find their way to God.

to me this is inconsistent, by praying for people to find their way to God are you not condemning them because you desire they find their way to God.

you have done very well in keeping up with my train wreck

gots to go.

 

[fbl9]

Something for you to ponder Offdoodkycm: You claim that beacuse of the sins of the leaders of the Church you refuse to follow them as leaders, Yet you are not without sin but you still follow yourself in regards to what you beleive. How can you do that?

am i correct in this? Offdoodycrn feels that because certain popes and clergy of the Church have committed error/sins that they can not be trutsted to be absolutely truthful in certain teachings regarding what to beleive and what to do morally.

Now i do know that you hold beleifs that you consider to be absolutely truthful. am out to lunch here too? ie Jesus is the Son of God.
my question is because of your personal errors/sins does this make your beleifs less than truthful?

 

[Offdoodykcrn]

am i correct in this? Offdoodycrn feels that because certain popes and clergy of the Church have committed error/sins that they can not be trutsted to be absolutely truthful in certain teachings regarding what to beleive and what to do morally.

Now i do know that you hold beleifs that you consider to be absolutely truthful. am out to lunch here too? ie Jesus is the Son of God.
my question is because of your personal errors/sins does this make your beleifs less than truthful?

No, my dear fbl9, you are not right - but thank you for pointing out exactly how you drive me to distraction by jumping the gun and rushing to judgement.

In this particular case, you are reading my post #96 on page 7 of this thread, correct? To put it into context for those that do not wish to earn their ‘tenacity badge’, Alan (in post #94) had commented about annulments being complex and confusing, and I agreed with him, stating that the topic is “a puzzler”. I pointed out the irony of the situation: the Catholic Church has put into place, a system in which the people we are to consult in issues of marriage are not allowed to marry (unless they become priests after they are married). In no way or place in this thread, forum or internet - have I stated that I would not follow sinners (as you stated in post #99), nor have I stated that certain popes or clergy can’t be trusted or shouldn’t be believed in matters of morality.

It is my opinion that when you read my comment, you were angered because I had mentioned an issue that is a current source of controversy that is being brought up by the media (in the news, and most recently in an HBO documentary called “Mea Maxima Culpa: Silence In The House of God”) and is being used by some people (but not by me) to trash the Catholic Church. I can understand being upset by this. Personally, I think the shame so many people feel about that subject is not so much about the crime itself (because surely - the shame belongs to the perpetrators of the crime, not the victims or people who belong to the Church), but by the actions taken by the Church to address the crime. This crime is not exclusive to the church, or religion - for that matter. Criminals of this type seek out opportunities in parts of community that either won’t be believed, and/or situations where they will be protected by people in power to avoid the shame and guilt associated with the criminal activity.

Truly, my heart goes out to the victims of these crimes, and to all Catholics who have been hurt by the very worst of criminals. I pray for all of them to be healed, and hope people keep their faith in the church and mankind, as we are all hurt by such evil deeds.

Peace to all.

 

[fbl9]

No, my dear fbl9, you are not right - but thank you for pointing out exactly how you drive me to distraction by jumping the gun and rushing to judgement.

In this particular case, you are reading my post #96 on page 7 of this thread, correct? To put it into context for those that do not wish to earn their ‘tenacity badge’, Alan (in post #94) had commented about annulments being complex and confusing, and I agreed with him, stating that the topic is “a puzzler”. I pointed out the irony of the situation: the Catholic Church has put into place, a system in which the people we are to consult in issues of marriage are not allowed to marry (unless they become priests after they are married). In no way or place in this thread, forum or internet - have I stated that I would not follow sinners (as you stated in post #99), nor have I stated that certain popes or clergy can’t be trusted or shouldn’t be believed in matters of morality.

It is my opinion that when you read my comment, you were angered because I had mentioned an issue that is a current source of controversy that is being brought up by the media (in the news, and most recently in an HBO documentary called “Mea Maxima Culpa: Silence In The House of God”) and is being used by some people (but not by me) to trash the Catholic Church. I can understand being upset by this. Personally, I think the shame so many people feel about that subject is not so much about the crime itself (because surely - the shame belongs to the perpetrators of the crime, not the victims or people who belong to the Church), but by the actions taken by the Church to address the crime. This crime is not exclusive to the church, or religion - for that matter. Criminals of this type seek out opportunities in parts of community that either won’t be believed, and/or situations where they will be protected by people in power to avoid the shame and guilt associated with the criminal activity.

Truly, my heart goes out to the victims of these crimes, and to all Catholics who have been hurt by the very worst of criminals. I pray for all of them to be healed, and hope people keep their faith in the church and mankind, as we are all hurt by such evil deeds.

Peace to all.

let’s go back ,

 

[fbl9]

My statement about organized religion was not pointed at Catholicism, per se. I believe most organized religion provides society with stability, it unites communities, provides a basis for morality and answers the universal question, “Why?”

The problem I see with almost every organized religion is not an issue of God, but of people in positions of power. For example: all 3 of the major religions; Christian, Jewish and Muslim - all acknowledge that killing is a sin, and yet all 3 - at one time or another, have killed and waged war against each other in the name of their religion. Does God want us to kill each other for not believing in God the same way? I can not believe that to be true. God is love, and it is incorruptible. People, unfortunately - are often easily corruptible. When I have studied various theologies, I look at how they define God and see how their definitions compare with the nature of Love. For example, I question those Muslim factions that rally it’s members to hate those that do not worship their way. In those communities, I might be physically harmed just for raising the question - if I was allowed to voice the question in the first place.

I do not believe God is divisive or destructive. I do not believe God turns away from me when I have questions. I have never doubted Gods love for me or anyone else, for that matter. It is my prayer that we all are lead to him - through whatever path we chose.

May God bless you & keep you.

let’s go back ,

this: not the irony part of your other post.
and no there was no anger invovled in my post to you.

There really is nothing that i can say/write that would cause you to accept the infallibity of the pope. The only way for one to accept the infallibilty of the pope is 1) they need to recognized the need for the church as a guide. 2) recognize the need for that guide to be always correct. in regards what to beleive and do.