Quran 5:116

[Sister_Amy]

Sister Amy -

My small explaination between molucule an atom was just that. You have taken a small explaination and turned it into a scientific debate. I’ve got the wrong persom for a scientific debate.

I could have used a clover explaination.

One clover with 3 leaves, it’s still one clover and the leaves are attached to it, and please, don’t get into horticulturist debate with the clover.

Best Regards and God Bless,
Jakasaki
New York

Hi again Jakasaki –

My point wasn’t really to debunk the analogy–there’s no counting how many different analogies have been constructed to explain the Trinity.

And they all miss the point I was trying to make.

 

[eichenb2]

Thanks for your post, for taking the time to read, and for your interesting scientific analogy.

I have the following thought, about the atom/molecule analogy. Three atoms, you say, one molecule. Fine. Let’s look at the H2O molecules. Two Hydrogens, one Oxygen. Only one Oxygen. Only one Molecule.

But there is only one Oxygen. The molecule, the total number of atoms, the hydrogens, is all irrelevant. It is only the Oxygen that matters.

So in Islam, it’s like saying there’s only one molecule, and there’s only one Oxygen. (Which is kind of a bad example I guess since you don’t find Oxygen atoms floating around independently, but let’s just pretend.) Putting the two Hydrogens there and saying you’ve still got one molecule kind of defeats the point, when there is only supposed to be Oxygen.

And the hydrogen, even though it’s in the same molecule as the oxygen, is still not going to actually be oxygen.

In Islam. Only one, unitary God. No Trinity.

Neither of the analogies work. From the Christian perspective, an analogy will never work. The Holy Trinity can be apprehended not truly comprehended. There is a difference. It is a dogmatic formulation based on the testimony of Spricture and Church Tradition. Basically, God said and that makes it so.
If you then want to discuss whether the Scripture and Tradition are sufficient to determine the nature of God, then that is a different discussion. Let it be known, though, that Christian have believed and articulated the Trinity, as it is known today, before Muhammad existed. NEVER has they thought Mary was a God. Since you are Muslim, though, you should know that the word Tawheed is not used in the Qur’an.

 

[eichenb2]

Hi again Jakasaki –

My point wasn’t really to debunk the analogy–there’s no counting how many different analogies have been constructed to explain the Trinity.

And they all miss the point I was trying to make.

What is your point; if not beating of the same straw man? Repeat after me, Muhammad was Wrong!

 

[eichenb2]

What exactly does this verse mean:

[5:116] GOD will say, "O Jesus, son of Mary, did you say to the people, `Make me and my mother idols beside GOD?’ " He will say, "Be You glorified. I could not utter what was not right. Had I said it, You already would have known it. You know my thoughts, and I do not know Your thoughts. You know all the secrets.

What did Muhammad and/or Allah mean by this? Jesus obviously never said this. Was this Muhammad’s misinterpretation of the Trinity - that Mary was part of it? If so, why would this be in the Quran if the Quran is the infallible word of God? God, since he is omniscient, would have known that the Trinity did not include Mary and that Christians did not and had never worshipped Mary as part of the Trinity. Sometimes I am just so confused?!? Even if this is a jab at the Catholic reverence for Mary, we still don’t and have never put her “beside” God; and Muslims, I thought, had just as much reverence for Mary (although admittedly just as the mother of Jesus, the prophet and not as she is, the mother of Jesus, the Son of God.)

I feel like the “Wizard of Oz” when dealing this issue. “Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!” Muslims will always to play all types of rhetorical games to try to justify this verse, and others like it. Pay no attention! The bottom line is that the Holy Trinity (Father, Son, & Holy Spirit) has been professed by Christians for 2000 years. It has NEVER included The Blessed Virgen Maria. It is a dogmatic teaching that is gleaned from Sacred Scripture and Church Tradition. This Qur’anic verse indicates that either Allah or Muhammad did not understand the Christian teaching of the Trinity or lied about it. He was able to perpetuate its inclusion in Islamic doctrine by force. Basically, in a very efficient manner (somewhat like other tyrants), had all who disagreed silenced. Do believe me??? Read! In the name of Lord…The Second Person of the Holy Trinity

 

[Sister_Amy]

Neither of the analogies work. From the Christian perspective, an analogy will never work. The Holy Trinity can be apprehended not truly comprehended. There is a difference. It is a dogmatic formulation based on the testimony of Spricture and Church Tradition. Basically, God said and that makes it so.
If you then want to discuss whether the Scripture and Tradition are sufficient to determine the nature of God, then that is a different discussion. Let it be known, though, that Christian have believed and articulated the Trinity, as it is known today, before Muhammad existed. NEVER has they thought Mary was a God. Since you are Muslim, though, you should know that the word Tawheed is not used in the Qur’an.

You can’t get more than three verses into the Qur’an without encountering all three forms of tawheed. The use of the word is itself irrelevant. How come the Trinity is false? To use your words, “Basically, God said and that makes it so.”

 

[Sister_Amy]

What is your point; if not beating of the same straw man? Repeat after me, Muhammad was Wrong!

Qul huwa Allahu Ahad.

 

[eichenb2]

You can’t get more than three verses into the Qur’an without encountering all three forms of tawheed. The use of the word is itself irrelevant. How come the Trinity is false? To use your words, “Basically, God said and that makes it so.”

As the Trinity (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit), is EXPLICITLY given as a formula for Baptism in the Gospel of St. Matthew. By the way, TAWHEED is not mentioned!!! I did not claim that derivations were not in the Qur’an. My point was that Trinity is Biblical, whether Muslims like it or not. Oh…and in the case of God saying so…He said it in the Bible 600 years before the Qur’an

 

[katy_kt]

Can you please demonstrate for me how one prays to the Holy Spirit? I never heard of anyone doing that before. (Praise) For example?

1.Glory be to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit. As it was in the beginning, is now and ever shall be world without end. Amen.

2.Come, Holy Spirit, fill the hearts of Your faithful and enkindle in them the fire of Your love. Send forth Your Spirit and they shall be created. And You shall renew the face of the earth.

Can you give me an example of sacrifices made only for the Holy Spirit?

The Lenten sacrifices are for the Holy Spirit to give us the power to seek forgiveness and change our lives to be true Christians/Catholics.

May I assume that these statements are explicit in your creed or something? Is this doctrinal? Doctrinal?

Holy Spirit is God, Lord, not created, eternal. All from the Athanasian Creed. All Doctrinal for Catholics. As far as I am aware of most Christian denomination do not deny this.

Quotes from the Catechism of the Catholic Church
683 "No one can say ‘Jesus is Lord’ except by the Holy Spirit."1 “God has sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, 'Abba! Father!”'2 This knowledge of faith is possible only in the Holy Spirit: to be in touch with Christ, we must first have been touched by the Holy Spirit. He comes to meet us and kindles faith in us.
685 To believe in the Holy Spirit is to profess that the Holy Spirit is one of the persons of the Holy Trinity, consubstantial with the Father and the Son: "with the Father and the Son he is worshipped and glorified.

Can you prove that the Holy Spirit gives it to you?

What do you mean by proof? All that I have mentioned are called the ‘Fruits of the Holy Spirit’ and ‘Gifts of the Holy Spirit’.

1832 The fruits of the Spirit are perfections that the Holy Spirit forms in us as the first fruits of eternal glory. The tradition of the Church lists twelve of them: “charity, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, generosity, gentleness, faithfulness, modesty, self-control, chastity.”(Gal 5:22-23 (Vulg.).)
1845 The seven gifts of the Holy Spirit bestowed upon Christians are wisdom, understanding, counsel, fortitude, knowledge, piety, and fear of the Lord.

For instance? You don’t say, “Oh God, empower me with Your spirit” or something like that?

We can say that. We also ask the Holy Spirit to come into our lives and change it. We can’t do anything without the help of Holy Spirit. We ask the Holy Spirit to take control of our lives. It gives us courage, knowledge etc. All the fruits and gift listed are what the Holy Spirit gives us.

If the Holy Spirit is God, then it only hears by God’s power.

The Holy Spirit hears by its own power which is God’s power. They aren’t different.

You say she can hear your prayers, that God allows her to, but what evidence do you have of that?

Due to the fact that some prayers are answered. Miracles, Apparitions etc. Also for us, the saints are alive in Heaven with God singing his praises and offering our petition to him (from Revelations)

Mary can’t give you anything out of her own power. Full stop. Full stop.

Why the double full stop?

But actually, it is their intention. What they intend to do is worship, even though worship is not what they intend.

Do not agree. But fine this is what you believe, since we intend to pray to them and prayer to you is worship, so we intend to do worship…but worship is not our intent. I’ll keep this in mind.

The point is rather that their worship is being pointed out to them for what it is.

Keep this in mind.

So you’re playing around with the word “intention.” What helps you sleep at night won’t save you.

Sigh…you missed it again. The intention part wasn’t the point.

Now…

The point is rather that their worship is being pointed out to them for what it is.

There! This is what I was trying to address. The Quran fails to “point is rather that their worship is being pointed out to them for what it is.”. Actually it doesn’t. I just says that we take Mary as an idol and partner of God. Full Stop. Nothing else. How is that pointing anything to us?
It accuses us of taking Mary as an idol. How? No ‘worship’ being pointed out.
It accuses us of making Mary a partner of God. How? No ‘worship’ being pointed out.
For a book by God meant for everyone, it fails.

 

[inJESUS]

What would Muslims say about me if i called myself a prophet and woed the Muslims who commit shirk by putting Muhammad’s name alongside Allah as if they were equal? they will reply " no, we do NOT worship Muhammad, only Allah". What if i answer : i don’t care, putting Allah and muhammad in the same sentence of monothesism is shirk according to angel Gabriel who told me so.

Obviously, you will laugh at my ignorance and the ignorance of the one who “told” me so and the “limits” of the deity am preaching. We are talking about God, not an amateur in theology and God knows the intentions. Really, God can differentiate between things, He is no kid.

beside, if we want to play the game of “according to Islamic understanding it is shirk”, then am still waiting for one Muslim who can tell me by what right God the Most High will swear by Muhammad when God says He swears only by Himself because no one is greater? according to both OT and NT, Allah is polytheist unless of course Jews and Christians were wrong by “writing/corrupting” that there is no one greater than God.

 

[inJESUS]

come to think about it, Muhammad made God SWEAR by him, and he says we worship Mary! what arrogance and blasphemy coupled with ignorance.

 

[Sister_Amy]

As the Trinity (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit), is EXPLICITLY given as a formula for Baptism in the Gospel of St. Matthew. By the way, TAWHEED is not mentioned!!! I did not claim that derivations were not in the Qur’an. My point was that Trinity is Biblical, whether Muslims like it or not. Oh…and in the case of God saying so…He said it in the Bible 600 years before the Qur’an

What do you mean tawheed isn’t mentioned?

And what are you attacking me for?

It seems to me that you’re saying that the Trinity isn’t mentioned in the Bible, but that doesn’t mean the Trinity isn’t Biblical, because you can derive the Trinity from the Bible? Is that what you mean?

 

[inJESUS]

Surely! Allah wrongs not even of the weight of an atom (or a smallest ant) but if there is any good (done) He doubles it.’ (4.40) The Prophet added, “Then the prophets and Angels and the believers will intercede, and (last of all) the Almighty (Allah) will say, ‘Now remains My Intercession.” He will then hold a handful of the Fire from which He will take out some people whose bodies have been burnt, and they will be thrown into a river at the entrance of Paradise, called the water of life …’ (Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 9, Book 93, Number 532s)

Intercession is NOT shirk in Islam and the Shia have it. At best, it could be argued that it is shirk because the “dead cannot hear”, of course which the Shia oppose.

So if Allah wanted to refute the intercession of Mary, his argument should be very different from claiming we worship her since intercession per se is not shirk or idol worship, “by Allah’s leave”.

Who is there that shall intercede with Him save by His leave? . S. 2:255

So i think it’s enough turning round the bush. Muhammad is claiming we worship Mary **as **we worship Jesus and tries to refute it in different verses where he says “Mary used to eat food”.

Besides, who is he teaching that she or Jesus used to eat food? isn’t Allah supposed to know that we believe that Jesus is also a man?

These kind of refutations are amateurish and betray ignorance. It is impossible to attribute such weak human arguments to God.

 

[eichenb2]

Muslims cannot criticize the “unreasonableness” of the Trinity. After all, they have a duality…Allah and His Eternal Uncreated Word (Qur’an)! I wish Muslims would read more about thier own faith. Perhaps, though, they are afraid of what they may find. They should read in the Sira of Ibn Ishaq, where Muhammad personally requested someone to kill Asma bin Marwan after she complained that the men of Yathrib were following Muhammad.

Asma Bnt Marwan, a Madina poetess, wrote poems, criticizing Madina men‘You obey a stranger(Mohammed) who encourages you to murder for booty. You are greedy men. Is there no honor among you?’

Upon hearing those lines Muhammad said, ‘Will no one rid me of this woman?’ Umayr, a zealous Muslim, decided to execute the Prophet’s wishes.

Muhammad henceman snuck into her house and stabbed her. In fact, he had to move the breastfeeding infant to stab her. There are numerous examples. If any of the Muslims on this list are sincere about comparing/contrasting Islam & Christianity, read about these incidents. Then, compare them to the life of Christ.

 

[Sister_Amy]

1.Glory be to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit. As it was in the beginning, is now and ever shall be world without end. Amen.

2.Come, Holy Spirit, fill the hearts of Your faithful and enkindle in them the fire of Your love. Send forth Your Spirit and they shall be created. And You shall renew the face of the earth.

The Lenten sacrifices are for the Holy Spirit to give us the power to seek forgiveness and change our lives to be true Christians/Catholics.

Holy Spirit is God, Lord, not created, eternal. All from the Athanasian Creed. All Doctrinal for Catholics. As far as I am aware of most Christian denomination do not deny this.

Quotes from the Catechism of the Catholic Church
683 "No one can say ‘Jesus is Lord’ except by the Holy Spirit."1 “God has sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, 'Abba! Father!”'2 This knowledge of faith is possible only in the Holy Spirit: to be in touch with Christ, we must first have been touched by the Holy Spirit. He comes to meet us and kindles faith in us.
685 To believe in the Holy Spirit is to profess that the Holy Spirit is one of the persons of the Holy Trinity, consubstantial with the Father and the Son: "with the Father and the Son he is worshipped and glorified.

What do you mean by proof? All that I have mentioned are called the ‘Fruits of the Holy Spirit’ and ‘Gifts of the Holy Spirit’.

1832 The fruits of the Spirit are perfections that the Holy Spirit forms in us as the first fruits of eternal glory. The tradition of the Church lists twelve of them: “charity, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, generosity, gentleness, faithfulness, modesty, self-control, chastity.”(Gal 5:22-23 (Vulg.).)
1845 The seven gifts of the Holy Spirit bestowed upon Christians are wisdom, understanding, counsel, fortitude, knowledge, piety, and fear of the Lord.

We can say that. We also ask the Holy Spirit to come into our lives and change it. We can’t do anything without the help of Holy Spirit. We ask the Holy Spirit to take control of our lives. It gives us courage, knowledge etc. All the fruits and gift listed are what the Holy Spirit gives us.

The Holy Spirit hears by its own power which is God’s power. They aren’t different.

Due to the fact that some prayers are answered. Miracles, Apparitions etc. Also for us, the saints are alive in Heaven with God singing his praises and offering our petition to him (from Revelations)

I want to thank you for taking the time to write all that out and explain it to me. I do appreciate it.

Why the double full stop?

Muhammad told a young boy that if God wanted to harm him in some way, even if everyone in the world conspired to stop the harm, they couldn’t. And if God wanted to bestow a blessing on him, then even if the whole world tried to stop it, they couldn’t.

Do not agree. But fine this is what you believe, since we intend to pray to them and prayer to you is worship, so we intend to do worship…but worship is not our intent. I’ll keep this in mind.

Okay…

Now…

There! This is what I was trying to address. The Quran fails to “point is rather that their worship is being pointed out to them for what it is.”. Actually it doesn’t. I just says that we take Mary as an idol and partner of God. Full Stop. Nothing else. How is that pointing anything to us?
It accuses us of taking Mary as an idol. How? No ‘worship’ being pointed out.
It accuses us of making Mary a partner of God. How? No ‘worship’ being pointed out.
For a book by God meant for everyone, it fails.

I’m very sorry for you that you cannot see it.

 

[Sister_Amy]

Surely! Allah wrongs not even of the weight of an atom (or a smallest ant) but if there is any good (done) He doubles it.’ (4.40) The Prophet added, “Then the prophets and Angels and the believers will intercede, and (last of all) the Almighty (Allah) will say, ‘Now remains My Intercession.” He will then hold a handful of the Fire from which He will take out some people whose bodies have been burnt, and they will be thrown into a river at the entrance of Paradise, called the water of life …’ (Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 9, Book 93, Number 532s)

Intercession is NOT shirk in Islam and the Shia have it. At best, it could be argued that it is shirk because the “dead cannot hear”, of course which the Shia oppose.

The Shi’a are wrong about that, according to scholars of Ahl as-Sunnah wal-Jama’ah who agree that such kind of intercession you’re talking about is shirk. Intercession on the Day of Judgment is something else entirely than intercession in this life, to answer prayers and what have you, like the poster who earlier mentioned St. Therese interceding for her. Muslims reject that sort of thing.

Shall I start telling you that you do in fact worship Mary because Protestants say you do?

 

[Sister_Amy]

Muslims cannot criticize the “unreasonableness” of the Trinity. After all, they have a duality…Allah and His Eternal Uncreated Word (Qur’an)! I wish Muslims would read more about thier own faith. Perhaps, though, they are afraid of what they may find. They should read in the Sira of Ibn Ishaq, where Muhammad personally requested someone to kill Asma bin Marwan after she complained that the men of Yathrib were following Muhammad.

Asma Bnt Marwan, a Madina poetess, wrote poems, criticizing Madina men‘You obey a stranger(Mohammed) who encourages you to murder for booty. You are greedy men. Is there no honor among you?’

Upon hearing those lines Muhammad said, ‘Will no one rid me of this woman?’ Umayr, a zealous Muslim, decided to execute the Prophet’s wishes.

Muhammad henceman snuck into her house and stabbed her. In fact, he had to move the breastfeeding infant to stab her. There are numerous examples. If any of the Muslims on this list are sincere about comparing/contrasting Islam & Christianity, read about these incidents. Then, compare them to the life of Christ.

LOL

Guess you’re bringing out all the stops, now. Can’t you stick to the topic if you want to bash Islam? Or do you find it necessary to change topics because you cannot properly respond to the one at hand? Nobody is impressed.

 

[Sister_Amy]

come to think about it, Muhammad made God SWEAR by him, and he says we worship Mary! what arrogance and blasphemy coupled with ignorance.

Interesting, that Muhammad could make God do something. Where do you come up with this stuff?

 

[eichenb2]

The Shi’a are wrong about that, according to scholars of Ahl as-Sunnah wal-Jama’ah who agree that such kind of intercession you’re talking about is shirk. Intercession on the Day of Judgment is something else entirely than intercession in this life, to answer prayers and what have you, like the poster who earlier mentioned St. Therese interceding for her. Muslims reject that sort of thing.

Shall I start telling you that you do in fact worship Mary because Protestants say you do?

I am beginning to think that Sister Amy just wants to argue. Perhaps she does not even read the posts that she responds to. The original question has been answered, articulately and sufficiently. Nevertheless, the continues to argue semantics and the like. Sister Amy…I am praying for you!

 

[Sister_Amy]

I am beginning to think that Sister Amy just wants to argue. Perhaps she does not even read the posts that she responds to. The original question has been answered, articulately and sufficiently. Nevertheless, the continues to argue semantics and the like. Sister Amy…I am praying for you!

How kind. Praying that I burn in hell, no doubt. You can keep it to yourself, thanks.

 

[inJESUS]

Muhammad told a young boy that if God wanted to harm him in some way, even if everyone in the world conspired to stop the harm, they couldn’t. And if God wanted to bestow a blessing on him, then even if the whole world tried to stop it, they couldn’t.

neither do we believe that intercession is a means to “twist God’s arm” so to speak. If i ask the whole world to pray for something that God does not want, He won’t answer. If whole Christendom asked the saints to pray for them to win the lottery, it doesn’t mean every Christian will become a millionaire. We ask for intercession because we believe our fathers who left this world before us are alive in heaven and can pray for us, just as the living on earth can whether God answers as we want or not. The umma you believe in on earth, we believe in on earth and in heaven. The umma you believe in and which does not refrain from waging wars to protect you, is the umma we believe in heaven who will pray for us for God’s protection. God the all-knowing understands the difference between asking people to pray for you, and worshipping these people.