Quran 5:116

[ralphinal]

You are still not answering the question:

How would Christians KNOW what Jesus (pbuh) will say on the Day of Judgment if they are not referring to their own scriptures?

BTW, the Last Day is not the Day of Judgment, it is instead the Day when the world comes to an end.

We are using the Christian Bible because it is the only accurate text from God.

You must not understand what I am saying. In Christianity, the Role that Jesus himself said that he will play at the end of the World, which is Juedgement Day, is totally different than what the Qur’an says. As another thread once discussed, Isa in Islam has a role that is almost like the Anti-Christ and not Jesus at the end.

Jesus will call of us before him and judge us. Those who are judged worthy will be taken into heaven. Those who are not will be sent to hell. The sins of all men will be known, so that there will be no doubt as to why one went to heaven and the other to hell. There will be no pleading or arguing, as we will all know that we deserve our fate.

This junk about crosses being destroyed and pigs being killed is so much garbage and not in any way reflected in the teachings of Jesus. Revelation does talk about a war at the end of the world, but it is not Jesus killing the enemies of his faith. No, it is the world trying to destroy the Church.

The fact that the Qur’an claims that Christians do something that is not taught by Christians shows that he does not know what Christianity teaches. I am fine with warnings about idolatry and all that. But the second the word Trinity is used, it implies that Allah thinks that the Trinity is Jesus, Mary, and the Father. If there is no Trinity, why not say the correct teachings of the Christian faith and say that these are wrong?

 

[trdchubi]

Al-Qur’an, 003.085
And whoever desires a religion other than Islam, it shall not be accepted from him, and in the hereafter he shall be one of the losers.

“They possess a controlling spirit. False ministers or prophets will use manipulation to gain followers. Once people begin to follow them, they scare the individuals into staying (sometimes Killing apostates is a sound teaching). They tell individuals that if they leave, God will not be pleased and the like. In addition, false prophets will try to control the people’s personal lives.”

 

[Dirk_Skene]

It’s in a false holy book anyway. Don’t expect the quotes to have any weight. There are a few historical innaccersies (sp) in the koran as well. It has Moses doing things that Abraham did & the other way around.

 

[Dempsey1919]

The obvious conclusion is that for all practical purpose and in reality, when the issue is of Worshipping, Venerating, Deifying and/or Idolizing, it is Mary - the “Mother of God” and not the Holy Ghost has that kind of rank and status. **Briefly, the historical figures of Jesus and Mary are venerated as Deities. **The Holy Ghost is not venerated as a Deity.

There are one billion Catholics around the world who would disagree with you. We do not worship Mary, and we never have. You have been told this several times, and still refuse to believe us. The Quran is wrong in stating that we worship Mary as a goddess; accept the fact, and stop trying to make excuses. We don’t worship or idolise Mary. The Quran is wrong. You have been told the truth about our beliefs concerning the Trinity and Mary, the Mother of God.

For the last time: Statues and paintings are not worshipped. We adorn the walls of our Churches with statues and paintings in order to remind us of the Holy individuals they depict. I have pictures of my family hung on the walls of my home. Does this mean I worship my family members? No, it means that I love them and the photographs remind me of them throughout the day. There are statues and pictures in the Churches for the same reason.

 

[hamba2han]

There are one billion Catholics around the world who would disagree with you. We do not worship Mary, and we never have. You have been told this several times, and still refuse to believe us. The Quran is wrong in stating that we worship Mary as a goddess; accept the fact, and stop trying to make excuses. We don’t worship or idolise Mary. The Quran is wrong. You have been told the truth about our beliefs concerning the Trinity and Mary, the Mother of God.

For the last time: Statues and paintings are not worshipped. We adorn the walls of our Churches with statues and paintings in order to remind us of the Holy individuals they depict. I have pictures of my family hung on the walls of my home. Does this mean I worship my family members? No, it means that I love them and the photographs remind me of them throughout the day. There are statues and pictures in the Churches for the same reason.

Why would anyone need a crutch to help them walk when there is absolutely nothing wrong with their legs??

Did Mary herself place statues and paintings “in order to remind her of the Holy individuals they depict”?

Since the answer is so obviously ‘No’, then why must Christians insist on doing something that Mary NEVER did throughout her life?

By adorning their places of worship with statues and paintings, do Christians think that they can pray better and come closer to the Lord than Mary did?

 

[Eucharisted]

What exactly does this verse mean:

[5:116] GOD will say, "O Jesus, son of Mary, did you say to the people, `Make me and my mother idols beside GOD?’ " He will say, "Be You glorified. I could not utter what was not right. Had I said it, You already would have known it. You know my thoughts, and I do not know Your thoughts. You know all the secrets.

What did Muhammad and/or Allah mean by this? Jesus obviously never said this. Was this Muhammad’s misinterpretation of the Trinity - that Mary was part of it? If so, why would this be in the Quran if the Quran is the infallible word of God? God, since he is omniscient, would have known that the Trinity did not include Mary and that Christians did not and had never worshipped Mary as part of the Trinity. Sometimes I am just so confused?!? Even if this is a jab at the Catholic reverence for Mary, we still don’t and have never put her “beside” God; and Muslims, I thought, had just as much reverence for Mary (although admittedly just as the mother of Jesus, the prophet and not as she is, the mother of Jesus, the Son of God.)

Hi Jay

You can better understand Islamic prayer here.

As to how the Koran portrays the Trinity, yes it is quite sad. And it is even sadder that some Muslims try to defend the verses, acting as if we Catholic Christians don’t know our own beliefs. It would be better if they just admitted fault, that Moahmmed had goofed up, but no they do not do this. They say we lie about our beliefs or try to hide our beliefs from the world; it is an old, old, old conspiracy theory at best. Anyhow, don’t worry about it too much; just pray for the Muslims and defend the Faith. We are called to show the truth, but not called to prove the truth. But we do give witness to the truth of the truth by our good example. God bless!

 

[hamba2han]

You are still not answering the question:

How would Christians KNOW what Jesus (pbuh) will say on the Day of Judgment if they are not referring to their own scriptures?

BTW, the Last Day is not the Day of Judgment, it is instead the Day when the world comes to an end.

I need to correct myself here → Muslims do indeed believe there will be a Final Hour bringing the end to this world’s life, and that there will be a Last Day after which there will be no other day. Then the second life begins.

  The term Last Day refers to events of the Hereafter, when Allah the All-Mighty will resurrect all the creatures, gather them before Him and call them all to account.

   Then He will reward the pious with the eternal bliss in Paradise, and the evildoers with the disgraceful chastisement in the Fire.

I apologise for any confusion that I might have caused with my earlier post.

 

[Eucharisted]

I need to correct myself here → Muslims do indeed believe there will be a Final Hour bringing the end to this world’s life, and that there will be a Last Day after which there will be no other day. Then the second life begins.

  The term Last Day refers to events of the Hereafter, when Allah the All-Mighty will resurrect all the creatures, gather them before Him and call them all to account.

   Then He will reward the pious with the eternal bliss in Paradise, and the evildoers with the disgraceful chastisement in the Fire.

I apologise for any confusion that I might have caused with my earlier post.

No problem

 

[emarc]

Why would anyone need a crutch to help them walk when there is absolutely nothing wrong with their legs??

Did Mary herself place statues and paintings “in order to remind her of the Holy individuals they depict”?

Since the answer is so obviously ‘No’, then why must Christians insist on doing something that Mary NEVER did throughout her life?

By adorning their places of worship with statues and paintings, do Christians think that they can pray better and come closer to the Lord than Mary did?

many people who lived in the early centuries did not know how to read and write. the CC used these graphics and icons to teach them the faith. through these graphics, they learned the story of Jesus when St. Gabriel spoke to Mary w/c Christians know as the Anunciation, the birth of Jesus in a manger, the flight of the Holy Family to Egypt, and thousands of other graphics depicting the life of Jesus; his passion as shown through the stations of the cross you see in Churches and up to his resurrection. this tradition which started centuries before mohammad was even born lives through many centuries. what is miraculous about Jesus life is that he was foretold by prophets and holy men in the OT centuries before his birth. there are more than 350 prophesies in the OT about Jesus that all came true right in the money, and these prophesies did not only come from the lips of one man but several holy men at different times. as i understood mohammad was the only author of quoran just as joseph smith wrote the book of mormons as “divinely inspired” so he said.
God bless.

 

[Sister_Amy]

I think that a complete understanding of what worship is in Islam, it is very difficult to arrive at the conclusion that Christians in general do not worship anything other than God.

A better way to explain things might be to say that the veneration which Catholics have for Mary (for example) is veneration which Muslims believe is due exclusively to God.

 

[SimonArizona]

I think that a complete understanding of what worship is in Islam, it is very difficult to arrive at the conclusion that Christians in general do not worship anything other than God.

A better way to explain things might be to say that the veneration which Catholics have for Mary (for example) is veneration which Muslims believe is due exclusively to God.

It is very difficult to arrive at the whole of the Christian faith, for there are many hurdles on the way to the truth. All people sinfully worship other things besides God, such as things, food, pleasure, themselves, etc. To worship God is to love Him first with all of the heart, all of the soul, all of the mind, all of the strength.

“you shall search for me, and you shall find me, when you seek me with all of your heart.”

 

[Sister_Amy]

It is very difficult to arrive at the whole of the Christian faith, for there are many hurdles on the way to the truth. All people sinfully worship other things besides God, such as things, food, pleasure, themselves, etc. To worship God is to love Him first with all of the heart, all of the soul, all of the mind, all of the strength.

“you shall search for me, and you shall find me, when you seek me with all of your heart.”

Many people carry their idols around with them. Pieces of green paper that conveniently fit into their wallets.

If their love is devoted to anything other than God, then they are guilty of an injustice. According to Islam anyway.

 

[ChristIsLord]

of all of my issues with converting to islam this is my biggesst sticking point. it would seem that the all powerful god of the universe would be able to square his argument correctly. mary has never been part of the trinity, yet in the koran it appears that god believes she is according to christian teaching (which of course is not true). to me it’s a real black mark against the korans authenticity.

 

[SimonArizona]

of all of my issues with converting to islam this is my biggesst sticking point. it would seem that the all powerful god of the universe would be able to square his argument correctly. mary has never been part of the trinity, yet in the koran it appears that god believes she is according to christian teaching (which of course is not true). to me it’s a real black mark against the korans authenticity.

Does koran teach Mary is triune?

 

[SimonArizona]

This is my contention. It would seem to me that logically this verse proves that the Quran did not come from God. Catholics and Christians DO NOT worship Mary. (I don’t know of any religion that does.) Therefore, only humans would make this accusation. God would not because He knows that Catholics/Christians do not worship Mary. He is omniscient so He knows everything. Therefore, this verse is strictly from Muhammad who did not understand this aspect of Christianity. If this verse is proven to not be from God, it puts all the other verses in question too. This is why I do not understand any of this. ??

It is commonly misunderstood that asking one to pray for you is worship. “Pray for us sinners.” God wouldn’t make that mistake. Neither is making a holy statue worship or sin. We do not make a bronze bull and worship it. For God commanded making holy statues of angels for His temple in the old testament. We can love Mary and not worship her as God. This is elementary misunderstanding. One should put these childish accusations behind and grow in spirituality.

 

[hamba2han]

of all of my issues with converting to islam this is my biggesst sticking point. it would seem that the all powerful god of the universe would be able to square his argument correctly. mary has never been part of the trinity, yet in the koran it appears that god believes she is according to christian teaching (which of course is not true). to me it’s a real black mark against the korans authenticity.

You need to understand the context of this verse.

The reason why Allah is asking Jesus (pbuh) this question on the Day of Judgment is because the people who have committed this great sin of associating partners with Allah by assigning divinity to Jesus (pbuh) and his mother need to hear the answer from Jesus (pbuh) himself on that Day and thereby enable them to fully understand the reason why they deserve they punishment that they will receive.

It is definitely NOT because Allah does not know the answer.

 

[Sister_Amy]

of all of my issues with converting to islam this is my biggesst sticking point. it would seem that the all powerful god of the universe would be able to square his argument correctly. mary has never been part of the trinity, yet in the koran it appears that god believes she is according to christian teaching (which of course is not true). to me it’s a real black mark against the korans authenticity.

It’s interesting to me that what you call your biggest sticking point rests on a simple misunderstanding of one verse, while your username actually violates the foundation of Islam.

The Qur’an does not say Mary is part of the Trinity, and in fact it is an egregious mistake for anyone (whether Muslim or not) to assume that this ayah refers to the Trinity. It seems to me to be an easy escape to say that the author of the Qur’an misunderstands Catholicism (or the Trinity) therefore the author of the Qur’an cannot be God.

But I think a truer statement is that men do not understand the words of God, and in their hasty misunderstanding they are led astray. The Qur’an is interesting in this way–that some people God guides with it, and others He misguides.

This ayah, coupled with your statement, seems to be a perfect example of that.

 

[ralphinal]

It’s interesting to me that what you call your biggest sticking point rests on a simple misunderstanding of one verse, while your username actually violates the foundation of Islam.

The Qur’an does not say Mary is part of the Trinity, and in fact it is an egregious mistake for anyone (whether Muslim or not) to assume that this ayah refers to the Trinity. It seems to me to be an easy escape to say that the author of the Qur’an misunderstands Catholicism (or the Trinity) therefore the author of the Qur’an cannot be God.

But I think a truer statement is that men do not understand the words of God, and in their hasty misunderstanding they are led astray. The Qur’an is interesting in this way–that some people God guides with it, and others He misguides.

This ayah, coupled with your statement, seems to be a perfect example of that.

I think that the hang-up that most of us have is that the word Trinity is used. It does read as though Allah is saying that Christians hold the Trinity as being Father, Mary, and Jesus. Had the verse said “I tld them not to worship me or my Mother Mary as gods” then none of us would say as much about it.

 

[Sister_Amy]

I think that the hang-up that most of us have is that the word Trinity is used. It does read as though Allah is saying that Christians hold the Trinity as being Father, Mary, and Jesus. Had the verse said “I tld them not to worship me or my Mother Mary as gods” then none of us would say as much about it.

Ralph, I’m not sure if I understand you. How is the word “Trinity” being used? Let me quote the ayah again:

And (remember) when Allah will say (on the Day of Resurrection): "O 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary)! Did you say unto men: ‘Worship me and my mother as two gods besides Allah?’ " He will say: "Glory be to You! It was not for me to say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, You would surely have known it. You know what is in my innerself though I do not know what is in Yours, truly, You, only You, are the AllKnower of all that is hidden and unseen. (Muhsin Khan)

And [beware the Day] when Allah will say, “O Jesus, Son of Mary, did you say to the people, ‘Take me and my mother as deities besides Allah ?’” He will say, "Exalted are You! It was not for me to say that to which I have no right. If I had said it, You would have known it. You know what is within myself, and I do not know what is within Yourself. Indeed, it is You who is Knower of the unseen. (Saheeh International)

These are the two translations I personally favor, which is why I quoted them.

So what is it exactly that leads you to assume Trinity?

 

[ralphinal]

Ralph, I’m not sure if I understand you. How is the word “Trinity” being used? Let me quote the ayah again:

And (remember) when Allah will say (on the Day of Resurrection): "O 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary)! Did you say unto men: ‘Worship me and my mother as two gods besides Allah?’ " He will say: "Glory be to You! It was not for me to say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, You would surely have known it. You know what is in my innerself though I do not know what is in Yours, truly, You, only You, are the AllKnower of all that is hidden and unseen. (Muhsin Khan)

And [beware the Day] when Allah will say, “O Jesus, Son of Mary, did you say to the people, ‘Take me and my mother as deities besides Allah ?’” He will say, "Exalted are You! It was not for me to say that to which I have no right. If I had said it, You would have known it. You know what is within myself, and I do not know what is within Yourself. Indeed, it is You who is Knower of the unseen. (Saheeh International)

These are the two translations I personally favor, which is why I quoted them.

So what is it exactly that leads you to assume Trinity?

Well, I misread what others had posted. I thought it SAID Trinity. I stand corrected.

Now, do Muslims think that the Trinity is The Father, Jesus and Mary? Is this the form of assigning partners that will lead us to hell for ever? If I go to a Muslim site, will it ssay the correct Christian Teaching on the Trinity?