Quran 5:116

[pete_29]

** Dear Jay, the Quran is right. It is accusing the christians of praying to Jesus and Mary. Please see the verse 5:116 again which you have posted:

[5:116] GOD will say, "O Jesus, son of Mary, did you say to the people, `Make me and my mother **idols beside GOD?’ " He will say, "Be You glorified. I could not utter what was not right. Had I said it, You already would have known it. You know my thoughts, and I do not know Your thoughts. You know all the secrets.

Muslim Woman has rightly explained (in brief) to you. But I may also try it. I feel that you have only objection to the prayers to Mary. You do not believe that christians pray to Mary. Am I right?

Other wise, I hope you are agreed to your praying to Jesus. Is that right? You question seems to revolve around the worship of Mary. Is that right?

So at least half the problem is solved. You pray only to Jesus and not to Mary. That is what you feel. and you think that Quran is wrong in attributing any prayers to Mary. Am I right in understanding you? Please tell so that we can proceed with discussion further. thanks.

“Lord”, Phillip said to him, “show us the Father and that will be enough for us.” “Phillip”, Jesus replied, "after I have been with you all this time, you still do not know me?
" Whoever has seen me has seen the Father."

 

[Eucharisted]

Allow me to explain the Trinity. I will be using Catholic theology. I understand that you Muslims don’t follow Catholic theology, so please bear with me. I will try to explain the Trinity as best as I can, so you can understand what we Catholic Christians believe.

We Catholic Christians believe in God. One God. The God. He is the one and only God. There is no other god beside Him. There is no god before, next to, above, below, beside, or after Him. He is God alone. Every other so-called “god” and “lord” in the world is an idol, a manmade deity. You Muslims worship God along with us, too. That is to say, we worship the same God, the one God, who is the Creator of heaven and earth. We have different beliefs about Him, and different Names too, but we worship the one Lord.

We Catholics Christians believe that God is One. He is One in three ways: 1) He is utterly simple, Spirit; His Will is His Power, His Power is Knowledge, His Knowledge is Will, etc.; 2) He is the Absolute Goodness: Holiness itself, Justice itself, Love and Mercy itself - whatever is good, He is its Source and Summit, for He is Goodness itself; 3) He is everything that He is in Himself, He is entirely Himself, and therefore, since He is entirely God, there is no other god in the world.

We Catholic Christians believe that God is Triune. We believe that in the one Lord is three Persons. These three Persons are not of the Lord but are in the Lord; if they were of the Lord, we would believe in three gods; and when we say they are ‘in the Lord’, we don’t mean that God has volume or depth, like a pitcher of water, but that the Persons are within God, not without God - a man would be without God, for example. Because the Persons are within God, they are Divine Persons. What is meant by this is that each of the three Persons is God: they don’t share the divine natue but rather each is God, the one God. Because the Persons are God, they can only be distinct from one another - given the Oneness of God - in as far as their relations to One Another: so the Father is distinct from the Son as the Father, the Son is distinct from the Father as the Son, and the Holy Spirit is distinct from the Father and the Son as the Holy Spirit.

Now, since I’m not an expert in Greek philosphy, I cannot properly explain the Trinity; however, I can say that Saint Paul did not, as some believe, pervert Christianity with Greek philosophy, but rather, the Lord provided Greek philosophy as an instrunent to better understand Him. Since the aim of philosophy is to seek knowledge and truth, and God is the Holder of all knowledge and is the Truth itself, than it would be reasonable to say that He would use philsophy as a way to aid man to come to a greater knowledge of Himself, and, in knowing Him better, come to a closer union with Him in virtue of love (for knowledge of God begets love of God). Of course, I am entirely aware that none of what I say about Christianity or the Trinity matters if one dose not believe Jesus is God, because, if Jesus is not God, than we Christians are idiots and our beliefs are lies, but, if He is God - as we believe by faith and reason - than what He says must be true, since He is the Truth itself, and since it is He Himself who proclaimed God is Triune when He made known the three Divine Persons to His disciples - “Baptize in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit” - than we must believe what He says. Furthermore, for those of you who truly seek the truth, I advise you to not read the gospels as a corrupted document and Jesus’ words as being the invention of the Church, but rather, read the gospels as historic documents - which they are - and read Jesus’ words for what they are: His very own words.

 

[Alexius]

There is a strong opinion that such saint-worship violates the basic premises of Islam. Shaykh Yasir Qadhi gave a lecture about that recently on the Deen Show if you wanna check it out on youtube. Muslims are just as fierce (if not more so) against grave/saint worship among “Muslims” than they are against it among non-Muslims, because the Muslims ought to know better.

I know that there is much disagreement over these types of practices. One of the causes of the Wahhabi movement is to purify the Islamic faith and bring it back to the way of Muhammad in the beginning. This is one of those practices that Wahhabis seek to rid. Of course, there are others who seek the same, but some others also accept the practice. Seems that in some areas it is rooted stronger than in others. I wonder if the practice came from Christian practice (and the tasbih seems to have Christian roots–don’t think Muhammad used those either???).

Prayers and petitions,
Alexius

 

[planten]

The issue of “praying to Mary” has been asked-broached-discussed-and explained many times on many different threads. In court an attorney would say “asked and answered”. If you want authoritative answer to this issue I encourage you to read the Catechism of the Catholic Church which deals with this misconception effectively. The meaning of the word “pray” is to ask…not worship as you erroneously stated. We as Christians “ask” our fellow Christians to pray for us and we ask Mary and other Saints to do the same. If you don’t agree with that then I invite you to not ask…fair enough? Your religion and Christianity are quite different in so many ways it would be difficult to cover it. Christians worship a loving God, a forgiving God. We are not given brownie points for hating or killing and all men and women are humans…not “apes and pigs”.
You accuse many posters here of misrepresenting your “religion” and yet persist in misrepresenting ours…in spite of the fact that you have had it explained to you before…what gives?
This is going nowhere but there it is.

** pismopal, you have put it in a good way, if it could be right. The discussion hangs on the meaning of the word “pray”. I know it has been used in English language in a lose fashion to request some one to pray to the One God. The word “Pray” is used by people to people also. They say, “I pray you come to my home sometime…”

But that is not the real meaning of the word “Pray”… The English people call the Lord mayor “Your worship”. What would you say about that?. There is the word “Worship” being used for people.?

Even when you pray to Mary or saints ( who are no more alive nor hear your voice), you are adrift. We Muslims never pray to any one except the One Living God. We never pray to any dead or alive personality. We do request some living friends (saints) to pray to Allah for our well being. We never pray to them to pray to the One God to help us.
Please understand that no disrespect is intended in this post. It was all necessary to make the matter understood. You pray to One God only but you pray to Mary and the saints too. It cannot be understood easily.**

 

[planten]

** J C, please let the person (Jay) reply to me. Thanks.**

 

[planten]

Muslim woman

You muslims don’t have statues you say…I say OK. Thats very cool and also irrelevent because we are not muslims and I certainly am not interested in islam…that is any more than I already know. Our statues are like pictures in our wallet…of our family. A way to bring to mind events of the past…we pray in front of them…not to the statues themselves. If you don’t understand, I am sympathetic because the things that puzzle me about your religion would fill a book larger than…well , the koran.

**pismopal, that leads to paganism. Your photos in your wallet do not mislead you. But your statues will do. You know that it was forbidden in the OT about having any images and idols.

The beginning of polytheism is just like that. It is very innocent in the beginning. Later becomes full fledge sin. Already you are having a man God (Jesus). On top of that you have statues in the churches. It could not be justified in the times of Jesus a.s. and his apostles.**

 

[pete_29]

**pismopal, that leads to paganism. Your photos in your wallet do not mislead you. But your statues will do. You know that it was forbidden in the OT about having any images and idols.

The beginning of polytheism is just like that. It is very innocent in the beginning. Later becomes full fledge sin. Already you are having a man God (Jesus). On top of that you have statues in the churches. It could not be justified in the times of Jesus a.s. and his apostles.**

Jesus is God and has said so. If you don’t believe Him that’s your problem.

 

[paarsurrey]

Jesus is God and has said so. If you don’t believe Him that’s your problem.

Hi

Kindly quote from Jesus mouth where he instructed to make imageds of him or Mary and worship them. Kindly let Jesus remain a fully (100%) human; and please don’t add any attributes which are not worthy of a human, in my opinion. Jesus had a charisma while being a human; please let him remain one.

I love Jesus and Mary as I do love Buddha and Krishna

Thanks

 

[pete_29]

Hi

Kindly quote from Jesus mouth where he instructed to make imageds of him or Mary and worship them. Kindly let Jesus remain a fully (100%) human; and please don’t add any attributes which are not worthy of a human, in my opinion. Jesus had a charisma while being a human; please let him remain one.

I love Jesus and Mary as I do love Buddha and Krishna

Thanks

Post #67 is from John 14:8-10. As I told planten, if you don’t believe that’s your problem. By the way, we don’t worship imageds, as you have been told over,and over, and over, etc., etc., etc.

 

[famdigy]

What exactly does this verse mean:

[5:116] GOD will say, "O Jesus, son of Mary, did you say to the people, `Make me and my mother idols beside GOD?’ " He will say, "Be You glorified. I could not utter what was not right. Had I said it, You already would have known it. You know my thoughts, and I do not know Your thoughts. You know all the secrets.

This is a narrative of a conversation between Jesus and God that will take place on the Day of Judgement. Jesus disclaims here any knowledge of the sort of things that are attributed to him by those who profess to follow him. The worship of Mary, though repudiated by most christians, was widely spread among the earlier churches, Jesus further acknowledges that he was mortal, and that his knowledge was limited like that of a mortal, and that Allah alone is the owner of the heavens and the earth and whatever is in them, and that Allah is the almighty, the knowing and the wise.

 

[famdigy]

I came across this sentence in an article as I was reading into the topic of worshiping mary. The author here argues that modern catholics worship mary by praying to her.

On May 13, 1981, a man shot Pope John Paul II. As the ambulance carried him to the hospital, the Pope kept praying, “Mary, my mother! Mary, my mother!” One year later, the Pope made a pilgrimage to Fatima to thank Our Lady of Fatima for saving his life and to consecrate the entire human race to her.[37] The video “Catholicism: Crisis of Faith” shows the Pope kissing the feet of a statue of Mary.[38]

catholicconcerns.com/MaryWorship.html

 

[pete_29]

This is a narrative of a conversation between Jesus and God that will take place on the Day of Judgement. Jesus disclaims here any knowledge of the sort of things that are attributed to him by those who profess to follow him. The worship of Mary, though repudiated by most christians, was widely spread among the earlier churches, Jesus further acknowledges that he was mortal, and that his knowledge was limited like that of a mortal, and that Allah alone is the owner of the heavens and the earth and whatever is in them, and that Allah is the almighty, the knowing and the wise.

:banghead: I might as well be talking to a wall.:hypno:

 

[famdigy]

:banghead: I might as well be talking to a wall.:hypno:

what is that supposed to mean?
is it not ture that historically there were people who had worshiped mary as a diety. The verse here says “Didst thou say unto mankind” mankind, in this context is not limited to Catholics or protestants but also includes heretical ofshoots of christianity such as the movement called Collyridianism where a group of women were worshiping mary outright.

 

[pete_29]

what is that supposed to mean?
is it not ture that historically there were people who had worshiped mary as a diety. The verse here says “Didst thou say unto mankind” mankind, in this context is not limited to Catholics or protestants but also includes heretical ofshoots of christianity such as the movement called Collyridianism where a group of women were worshiping mary outright.

Again, , we do not worship Mary. We do not worship statues, and Jesus said he was God and He is God. If you don’t believe, stay with your koran. That’s your privelidge. This has been said many different times in many different threads.

 

[paarsurrey]

Post #67 is from John 14:8-10. As I told planten, if you don’t believe that’s your problem. By the way, we don’t worship imageds, as you have been told over,and over, and over, etc., etc., etc.

Hi

Please don’t be angry; Catholics are supposed to be patient; a good quality indeed.

Though I don’t believe Jesus dictated anything to John revealed on Jesus from God Allah YHWH or he ever dictated to John even from himself, yet I quote here from **John 14:8-20 **for arguments sake for my friends here:

8 Philip saith to him: Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us. 9 Jesus saith to him: Have I been so long a time with you; and have you not known me? Philip, he that seeth me seeth the Father also. How sayest thou, show us the Father? 10 Do you not believe, that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? The words that I speak to you, I speak not of myself. But the Father who abideth in me, he doth the works.

11 Believe you not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? 12 Otherwise believe for the very works’ sake. Amen, amen I say to you, he that believeth in me, the works that I do, he also shall do; and greater than these shall he do. 13 Because I go to the Father: and whatsoever you shall ask the Father in my name, that will I do: that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If you shall ask me any thing in my name, that I will do. 15 If you love me, keep my commandments.

16 And I will ask the Father, and he shall give you another Paraclete, that he may abide with you for ever. 17 The spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, nor knoweth him: but you shall know him; because he shall abide with you, and shall be in you. 18 I will not leave you orphans, I will come to you. 19 Yet a little while: and the world seeth me no more. But you see me: because I live, and you shall live. 20 In that day you shall know, that I am in my Father, and you in me, and I in you.
Unquote

Well , I don’t find anything here where Jesus told his followers that he was God Allah, in my opinion, and that he commanded his followers to worship him and to pray to him.

How could he tell such a thing which he never did himself? He always prayed to God Allah YHWH and told others to pray to God Allah YHWH in hours of need.

Kindly mention clearly and exactly Jesus’ words in a staightforward manner; and not your far-stretched inerpretition for which there are no explicit words there, please.

I love Jesus and Mary as I do love Buddha and Krishna

Thanks

 

[dolphinlove]

** pismopal, you have put it in a good way, if it could be right. The discussion hangs on the meaning of the word “pray”. I know it has been used in English language in a lose fashion to request some one to pray to the One God. The word “Pray” is used by people to people also. They say, “I pray you come to my home sometime…”

But that is not the real meaning of the word “Pray”… The English people call the Lord mayor “Your worship”. What would you say about that?. There is the word “Worship” being used for people.?

Even when you pray to Mary or saints ( who are no more alive nor hear your voice), you are adrift. We Muslims never pray to any one except the One Living God. We never pray to any dead or alive personality. We do request some living friends (saints) to pray to Allah for our well being. We never pray to them to pray to the One God to help us.
Please understand that no disrespect is intended in this post. It was all necessary to make the matter understood. You pray to One God only but you pray to Mary and the saints too. It cannot be understood easily.**

How many times do we have to explain this concept? I have hardly posted on these forums for the last couple of months and have not been here much, hoping that muslims can come up with something new, seems im wrong.
I will tell you this, again, for the 5000000000000000th time…
WE DO NOT WORSHIP STATUES!!

We pray WITH the Saints to God.
We worship ONLY God, and God alone.
We ask the Saints to intercede for us.

Dictionary meaning for intercede:
to act or interpose in behalf of someone in difficulty or trouble, as by pleading or petition: to intercede with the governor for a condemned man.

Can you see the difference, to worship, is what we do with God, to pray WITH the Saints, its to ask them to pray WITH us.

Now this is so simply explained, do you understand it?

 

[dolphinlove]

Paarsurrey,
Read this and what does this tell you?

John 10

24 The Jews gathered round him and said, ‘How much longer are you going to keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us openly.’
25 Jesus replied: I have told you, but you do not believe. The works I do in my Father’s name are my witness;
26 but you do not believe, because you are no sheep of mine.
27 The sheep that belong to me listen to my voice; I know them and they follow me.
28 I give them eternal life; they will never be lost and no one will ever steal them from my hand.
29 The Father, for what he has given me, is greater than anyone, and no one can steal anything from the Father’s hand.
30 The Father and I are one.
31 The Jews fetched stones to stone him,
32 so Jesus said to them, ‘I have shown you many good works from my Father; for which of these are you stoning me?’
33 The Jews answered him, ‘We are stoning you, not for doing a good work, but for blasphemy; though you are only a man, you claim to be God.’
34 Jesus answered: Is it not written in your Law: I said, you are gods?
35 So it uses the word ‘gods’ of those people to whom the word of God was addressed – and scripture cannot be set aside.
36 Yet to someone whom the Father has consecrated and sent into the world you say, ‘You are blaspheming’ because I said, ‘I am Son of God.’
37 If I am not doing my Father’s work, there is no need to believe me;
38 but if I am doing it, then even if you refuse to believe in me, at least believe in the work I do; then you will know for certain that the Father is in me and I am in the Father.

 

[paarsurrey]

to worship, is what we do with God, to pray WITH the Saints, its to ask them to pray WITH us.

Hi

My little question here: did Jesus ever pray in his life? I am certain the answer is in the affirmative.

My submission is the Catholics should pray just like Jesus did and not like Paul, in my opinion.

Did Jesus pray with the statues of Saints alongside him? Yes or no, please

I love Jesus and Marya s I do love Buddha and Krishna

Thanks

 

[famdigy]

Again, , we do not worship Mary. We do not worship statues, and Jesus said he was God and He is God. If you don’t believe, stay with your koran. That’s your privelidge. This has been said many different times in many different threads.

Again Pete 29, this is not directed at you. I accept you don’t worship Mary, but there are people before you who worshiped Mary. And the verse could be applied to them. Therefore it is a reasonable question to ask Jesus.

Follow-up question to Dolphin, On who’s authority do the saints intercede on your behalf.

Have they beeen granted the right of intercession to be able to intercede on your behalf, how do you know their intercession is valid. Please provide referenced answers from scripture.

 

[dolphinlove]

Im starting to think there i a place muslims go, where they are hooked up to some ‘mind shrinking’ device and are forced to stay there until they are tuned to repeat the same thing over and over again and it stumps their minds from thinking outside of the box.
If a person challenges them with anything, they repeat the same old thing, they cant absorb new information…
Its scary