Quran 5:116

[planten]

Your question is not relevant to the discussion because Ahmadiyya Islam is condemned as not Islamic by mainstream Islam, while Catholicism is not similarly condemned by mainstream Christianity.

**I beg your pardon. I once fell into some net report. It was about the Pope. It was most likely from a protestant guy. It was awful, very filthy words about the Pope. I am sure nobody could bear reading that report about the Pope and the Catholics.

What do you say about different sects in christianity?. You can call yourself holy. But what do others say about you?. I do not say that to you. My question was a valid question and could have been replied in some good way. But did you note that you were in a difficulty replying to that question?.

Thanks any way. Some or most of the Muslims do not consider the Ahmadia people as true Muslims because the leader Mirza Ghulam Ahmad of Qadian claimed that he was the same Masiha whose advent was promised to the Muslims by the Prophet Muhammad. He also claimed to be “The Mahdi”.

The Muslim people do not like any one claiming these titles. That Mahdi claimed that Allah talked to him and informed him about many unknown, unseen things, That Wahi and Ilham (revelation etc) is still continued in the Muslim Ummah. So they have their beliefs and the Muslims deny those beliefs.

Ahmadis are now more than 120 years old. They say they number more than 170 million in the world. What is true and who is right will be known later on.

Please do not mind. I do not consider Catholics as heretics.**

 

[dzheremi]

I beg your pardon. I once fell into some net report. It was about the Pope. It was most likely from a protestant guy. It was awful, very filthy words about the Pope. I am sure nobody could bear reading that report about the Pope and the Catholics.

Yes, we are well acquainted with this sort of polemic. Since my point was not that no one in Christianity opposes Catholicism, I don’t see what this has to do with anything.

What do you say about different sects in christianity?

 

[Eucharisted]

Thanks for the reply, Planten. Now let me answer your question

I am a Catholic Christian. Other Christians whom are not Catholic I call non-Catholic Christians, because we Catholics are the first Christians; every other Christian church and sect came after the Catholic Church. It’s a historic fact more than a theological belief, and you can eve check that historic fact with a little bit of research, if you want.

Lest I bring this thread off topic, I would like to point you and every other Muslim on CAF to another thread that deals with Catholic Christians and the Virgin Mary: the Catholics only please thread. The OP said:

Soutane:

For the edification and education of Leann,a poster here who seems to insist or at least implies that we Catholics worship the Blessed Virgin Mary in an identical fashion and with the same INTENT that we worship God Almighty;do you PERSONALLY worship the Blessed Virgin Mary or do you venerate her?

A number of Catholic Christians have voiced their personal opinions, and some have, in my opinion, gone a little further than the OP wanted by defending Mary and the veneration of saints and explaining the distinction between adoration (Latin: latria) and veneration (Greek: dulia), but it’s all good. My own post is this one:

Eucharisted:

Veneration.

“Reverence is due to God on account of His Excellence, which is communicated to certain creatures not in equal measure, but according to a measure of proportion; and so the reverence which we pay to God, and which belongs to latria, differs from the reverence which we pay to certain excellent creatures; this belongs to dulia, and we shall speak of it further on”; “Wherefore dulia, which pays due service to a human lord, is a distinct virtue from latria, which pays due service to the Lordship of God. It is, moreover, a species of observance, because by observance we honor all those who excel in dignity, while dulia properly speaking is the reverence of servants for their master, dulia being the Greek for servitude.” - Saint Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologiae, II II 84 1, 103 3

It is to be noted that we give Mary more veneration than any other saint - and this is called hyperdulia (Greek for super-servitude) - because of the privledges and honors which God bestowed on her, most especially her Divine Maternity and Queenship over all the angels and saints.

 

[Eucharisted]

Also keeping on topic with this thread, after re-reading the OP of this thread, I’d like to make a humble comment on the Divinity.

We Catholics understand that you Muslims don’t consider Jesus God, and we also understand that many will not accept Catholic teachings because they will or can not accept that Jesus is God, and that, I believe every Muslim can agree, is the distinguishing point: if Jesus is God, than everything He says must be true and accepted by all men, yet, if Jesus is not God but a mere mortal man, than He would be less then perfect, and so, He would only be, as you Muslims say, a prophet and a king (Messiah). We Catholics too believe He is a prophet and a king, and we also believe He is a priest. But that’s not to say we wish to force you to believe what we believe. Rather, I’m just saying that the Divinity of Jesus - that Jesus is God - is the true source of authenticity and authority in Christianity. This is what we Catholics believe. We do not believe Jesus is a god, but rather, we believe He is the God, God Himself. I know so many debates have going on for such a long time about this very topic, but I just thought I’d point that out.

We do not believe that Mohammed is a prophet, as you Muslims do, but we do respect your belief, and we ask for your respect of our beliefs as well, even if you may not believe them, just as we do not believe what you believe but still respect what you believe. “Do unto others as you would have others do unto you”

 

[planten]

Also keeping on topic with this thread, after re-reading the OP of this thread, I’d like to make a humble comment on the Divinity.

We Catholics understand that you Muslims don’t consider Jesus God, and we also understand that many will not accept Catholic teachings because they will or can not accept that Jesus is God, and that, I believe every Muslim can agree, is the distinguishing point: if Jesus is God, than everything He says must be true and accepted by all men, yet, if Jesus is not God but a mere mortal man, than He would be less then perfect, and so, He would only be, as you Muslims say, a prophet and a king (Messiah). We Catholics too believe He is a prophet and a king, and we also believe He is a priest. But that’s not to say we wish to force you to believe what we believe. Rather, I’m just saying that the Divinity of Jesus - that Jesus is God - is the true source of authenticity and authority in Christianity. This is what we Catholics believe. We do not believe Jesus is a god, but rather, we believe He is the God, God Himself. I know so many debates have going on for such a long time about this very topic, but I just thought I’d point that out.

We do not believe that Mohammed is a prophet, as you Muslims do, but we do respect your belief, and we ask for your respect of our beliefs as well, even if you may not believe them, just as we do not believe what you believe but still respect what you believe. “Do unto others as you would have others do unto you”

**It is a good balanced post with good advice. We love Jesus (in whatever way, we Love him). So you also love Muhammad please. Do not believe that he is a messenger of God. But respect Muhammad and love him. We will respect Jesus and love him.

Let us start from that point and as you have taken the trouble to find a way out from the lengthy discussions, we should respect you for working for a reconciliation. Thank to you, Eucharisted. Thanks. Would you please give your opinion in favor or against my proposal.**

 

[dzheremi]

What a false proposal you have made, Planten! Don’t you think we realize that you only love Jesus for what the Qur’an claims He did/said in support of Islam? We know you don’t love Jesus as He is presented in Christianity, because you have no idea about that. The Qur’an tells you He is Muslim, so to you He is. It has nothing to do with having common ground or reconciling with Christians, because this is NOT something we share, and our respective views of Christ are irreconcilable. Your Isa is a Muslim. Jesus Christ is not.

So we have to then ask, what or who is Muhammad to Christians? He is seen as destroyer of Eastern Christianity, a warmonger, an enslaver and rapist of Christian lands…in short, he has done NOTHING good for Christianity as your Isa has done for Islam, so we cannot love him even as you claim to love Jesus for your own reasons. You have your reasons for loving the Islamic Jesus, we have our reasons for hating Muhammad, and no reasons for loving him. This is just how it is.

 

[sedonaman]

The Qur’an tells you He [Jesus] is Muslim, so to you He is. It has nothing to do with having common ground or reconciling with Christians, because this is NOT something we share, and our respective views of Christ are irreconcilable. Your Isa is a Muslim. Jesus Christ is not.

There are other irreconcilable differences, for example:

CCC #36: “Our holy mother, the Church, holds and teaches that God, the first principle and last end of all things, can be known with certainty from the created world by the natural light of human reason.”[1] Without this capacity, man would not be able to welcome God’s revelation. Man has this capacity because he is created “in the image and likeness of God”.[2]

In other words, without human reason, we could not know God’s revelation.

Muslims tell us that Allah’s nature cannot be known; only his will can be known. “In Islam, pure illiteracy is divine. The uneducated prophet of Islam called himself ‘a guardian of the illiterates sent by Allah’ (Bukhari, 3:34:335). Another hadith (Sunaan Ibn Majah V:4290) reveals that Allah loves illiterate people and hates educated people and he had promised the first entry to Paradise to the illiterate Muslims and the last entry to the educated Muslims. The reason was simple. Muhammad wanted to keep his followers away from education because he knew that his newly established religion could not survive if criticism is allowed. As Toland (cited Gunny, 1996; p. 95) wrote, ‘… because he [Muhammad] clearly saw that the spirit of inquiry would not favour him. This is how Islam maintained itself’. Qur’an (5:101, 5:102) very strictly prohibits criticism. Diderot (1975, p. 230) expressed the same reason of Muhammad’s concern to keep his followers in darkness of ignorance, because reason is the greatest enemy of Islam. He wrote ‘since he [Muhammad] could not read or write, and so this had encouraged Muslims to hate and have contempt for knowledge, which in turn secured the survival of Islam’.”[3]

“Sister Amy” has informed us that Muslims have been taught not to say that man has been created in the image and likeness of Allah.

One belief says knowledge leads to Truth; the other says knowledge must be kept hidden [to conceal Truth]. One says that since man has been created in God’s image and likeness, he has free will; the other denies man is created in Allah’s image and likeness; therefore there can be no free will.

So if pure illiteracy is divine and Allah loves the ignorant, how can a Muslim, without human reason, know what Allah’s revelation is?

Refs.:
[1] Vatican I., Dei Filius
[2] Genesis, 1:27
[3] “Holy Islam: Holy Illiteracy, Holy Poverty, Holy Backwardness”, by Sujit Das,
islam-watch.org/SujitDas/Holy-Islam-Illiteracy-Poverty-Backwardness.htm

 

[sedonaman]

…we do respect your belief, and we ask for your respect of our beliefs as well, even if you may not believe them, just as we do not believe what you believe but still respect what you believe. “Do unto others as you would have others do unto you.”

Muslims do not acknowledge the Golden Rule.

 

[Lapell]

**I beg your pardon. I once fell into some net report. It was about the Pope. It was most likely from a protestant guy. It was awful, very filthy words about the Pope. I am sure nobody could bear reading that report about the Pope and the Catholics.

What do you say about different sects in christianity?. You can call yourself holy. But what do others say about you?. I do not say that to you. My question was a valid question and could have been replied in some good way. But did you note that you were in a difficulty replying to that question?.
**

What others say about us is quite irrelevant if it’s false or misinterpreting… God have mercy upon them all!
(It was said of Jesus that he would cast demons by the power of Baalzebul (sorry if there is any misspelling here, I am used to the way the word is written in French, either Beelzeboul or Belzebuth), the prince of demons! If this was said of him, some will say similar things about his faithful disciples, Jesus himself tell them in the Gospels.)

 

[Lapell]

So, it’s not what the people call us that count so much, it’s how God sees us.

 

[Lapell]

“Sister Amy” has informed us that Muslims have been taught not to say that man has been created in the image and likeness of Allah.

Huh? Did she actually say that? I haven’t read it, I think!

 

[Lapell]

**It is a good balanced post with good advice. We love Jesus (in whatever way, we Love him). So you also love Muhammad please. Do not believe that he is a messenger of God. But respect Muhammad and love him. We will respect Jesus and love him.

Let us start from that point and as you have taken the trouble to find a way out from the lengthy discussions, we should respect you for working for a reconciliation. Thank to you, Eucharisted. Thanks. Would you please give your opinion in favor or against my proposal.**

Who should we not respect, at least as humans?

 

[Lapell]

Would you include Hitler, Stalin, Mao Ze Tung and the likes of them?

 

[Jay53]

Huh? Did she actually say that? I haven’t read it, I think!

I think this is what was being referred to (in the thread “An honest and simple question for Muslims”)

Oct 14, '08, 10:31 am
Sister Amy
Re: An honest and simple question for Muslims
Sister Amy;4290751]First of all, everyone has the same rights. Let’s start with this statement. Certain, God-given rights, simply because they are a human being (although Muslims do NOT say that mankind was created in the “image of God.”) So every human being has certain rights. The rights to their life, to their property, to their dignity for example.

 

[Lapell]

I think this is what was being referred to (in the thread “An honest and simple question for Muslims”)

I thought that they accepted the Jewish Torah as word of God (that’s the Pentateuque), and the story of the Creation is in there… Does it mean then that the Muslims don’t accept the whole of it as the Word of God? When God breathes His breath into Adam (that is, before Eve was created)…? This would mean nothing to them?

 

[sedonaman]

Huh? Did she actually say that? I haven’t read it, I think!

“I stand by that statement, that a Muslim wouldn’t say man is created in the image of God. At least, I have been taught not to say that.” – Sister Amy, Post #400 in this thread

 

[dolphinlove]

**It is a good balanced post with good advice. We love Jesus (in whatever way, we Love him). So you also love Muhammad please. Do not believe that he is a messenger of God. But respect Muhammad and love him. We will respect Jesus and love him.

Let us start from that point and as you have taken the trouble to find a way out from the lengthy discussions, we should respect you for working for a reconciliation. Thank to you, Eucharisted. Thanks. Would you please give your opinion in favor or against my proposal.**

I dont think you understand planten, Catholics dont believe what muhammad preaches, what he taught, as it goes against the teachings of Jesus.
There is no way i will ever respect your prophet.

 

[Lapell]

Yes, EVEN to the likes of them there are chances that they receive forgiveness from God… provided that they repent from their sins from their own will and are willing to receive the forgiveness of God and His graces. And so yes, if we see them in heaven, it will mean that they finally came back to God and it would be a great thing indeed and we would have indeed a great reason to rejoice for and with them in Jesus, for they would have come back from so far away!!
I still would not want to judge the survivors of the “Holocaust” or of the “Gulag Archipelago” or of other such atrocities (and their families and relatives), and those who have seen or heard of them… who still are angry at them, although we pray that they will overcome their resentment some day… they need our prayers to be understanding. God have mercy on all of us and on all of them!

 

[Lapell]

What a false proposal you have made, Planten! Don’t you think we realize that you only love Jesus for what the Qur’an claims He did/said in support of Islam? We know you don’t love Jesus as He is presented in Christianity, because you have no idea about that. The Qur’an tells you He is Muslim, so to you He is. It has nothing to do with having common ground or reconciling with Christians, because this is NOT something we share, and our respective views of Christ are irreconcilable. Your Isa is a Muslim. Jesus Christ is not.

So we have to then ask, what or who is Muhammad to Christians? He is seen as destroyer of Eastern Christianity, a warmonger, an enslaver and rapist of Christian lands…in short, he has done NOTHING good for Christianity as your Isa has done for Islam, so we cannot love him even as you claim to love Jesus for your own reasons. You have your reasons for loving the Islamic Jesus, we have our reasons for hating Muhammad, and no reasons for loving him. This is just how it is.

If we take the word Muslim for what it means, it doesn’t mean per se “a follower of Muhammad”, you know!
As for not loving Muhammad… even when we have some reservations about someone, it doesn’t mean we must not love him!! Jesus loved His enemies, and if we truly are Jesus’ disciples, aren’t we supposed to go into His steps and do the same. Besides, the people are better than we think, even when they are quite… challenging!

 

[dzheremi]

You are right, Lapell, I phrased that very poorly. I apologize. I didn’t mean to say that we should not love Muhammad. I was trying to point out that the Muslims’ love for Jesus is based on their idea that he was one of God’s great prophets of ISLAM, as all past prophets were. It has nothing to do with Jesus as we see Him, so it can’t really be taken as a point of unity or solidarity with the Muslims, since we do not share that view.

So, in order to love Muhammad in the same way that Muslims love Jesus, we would need to show that Muhammad actually did something positive for Christianity (if we were really trying to “match” them, we would need to show that Muhammad preached Christianity). Unfortunately for Muslims, this is not the case. Muhammad did the exact opposite, destroying Christianity in his homeland and inspiring others to do the same elsewhere. So, of course we should love Muhammad as we should love everyone, but we cannot do so for the same kinds of reasons that Muslims love Isa, because those reasons just aren’t there.