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planten
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**dzhereme, then how many gods do you have? You have the father god and the son god and the spirit god. Then you have the inconsistency of having three in One and One in three. Could never be possible.
There is another one: Jesus is 100% man. Jesus is 100% God. Quite interesting formula, of 200% person.
dzhereme, you have admitted that Jesus is God. That is enough for us to not come near you, ever. You may preach as much as you like. Solve the riddle yourself of three gods and yet the One god. We know that in the end, youhave got the formula that it only Jesus who is really The God, nobody else. So your friends believe that Jesus created everything, even his mother.
Be good and continue…**
** dzhereme, the Quran is reporting all about you. It is all true statements.
- The Quran is telling that christians make Jesus as God. That is very true.
- The Quran is telling that the christians have three in One and One in three. That is also true.
- The Quran is telling that christians belive in “Three”. That means they believe in Trinity. That is also correct. You cannot deny.
Yet you say that Muslim Allah did not know what He was saying !!**
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planten
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St. Gregory, there are no errors in Quran. Every report about the christians is true and corerct. If there is any wrong report then please point it out. Thanks.
There is no condemnation in Islam. The Quran is teaching the same lesson to all people of the world that was being preached from ages ago, fromt he time of Noah and Abraham and Moses a.s… It is the church who has lost touch with the real religion in many ways. It is the church which has derailed the religious train.
**It is necessary that every one pray to Allah (The One God) only. Nobody should pray to any mortal. The question of intercession though appears to be an innocent act, is very harmful. It leads to sin.
The Quran teaches that thos ewho have passed away cannot pray anymore. Theycannot do anything for themselves. So how could they do anything for any one else?
They need our prayers. And we pray to Allah that He raise their ranks in heavens. And we hope that they will intercede with God for us on the day of judgement. We will request them on the day of judgement for intercession, not from now on. Theycannot hear us.
The intercession is true. But it is only with the permission of Allah (God). Only those will intercede whom the permission is given by God to speak.Otherwise,niethe rAbraham, nor Moses , nor Jesus nor Muhammad will be able to speak anything on behalf of any one.
I have jsut described the Islamic view about prayers and intercession. You may agree or not. It is upto you.
**
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anjoh66
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There is a practice among muslims to do the same, to pray for muhammeds intercession and it is supported by hadith and scholars.
Imam Shawkani [a major authority for the “salafis” due to his stance on Taqlid] says in al-Durr al-nadid fi ikhlas kalimat al-tawhid:
There is no harm in tawassul(asking intercession) through any one of the Prophets or Friends of Allah or scholars of knowledge… One who comes to the grave as a visitor (za’iran) and invokes Allah alone, using as his means the dead person in the grave, is as one who says: “O Allah, I am asking that you cure me from such-and-such, and I use as a means to You whatever this righteous servant of Yours possesses for worshipping You and striving for Your sake and learning and teaching purely and sincerely for You.” Such as this, there is no hesitation in declaring that it is permitted…
He also says in al-Durr al-nadid:
Regarding what those who forbid tawassul to Allah through the Prophets and the saints cite to support their position, such as Allah’s sayings:
· “We only worship them in order that they may bring us nearer” (39:3)
· “Do not call on any other god with Allah, or you will be among those who will be punished” (26:213)
· “Say: Call on those besides Him whom ye fancy; they have no power to remove your trouble from you or to change them. Those unto whom they cry seek for themselves the means of approach to their Lord, which of them shall be the nearest; they hope for His mercy and fear His wrath: for the wrath of thy Lord is something to take heed of” (17:57)
These verses are irrelevant.
Rather: they support exactly the reverse of what the objectors to tawassul claim, since the verses are related to another issue.
To wit: the verse “We only worship them in order that they may bring us nearer” explicitly states that they worship them for that purpose, whereas the one who makes tawassul through a scholar, for example, never worships him, but knows that he has a special distinction (maziyya) before Allah for being a carrier of knowledge; and that is why he uses him as a means.
Similarly irrelevant to the issue is Allah’s saying: “Do not call on any other god with Allah.” This verse forbids that one should call upon another together with Allah, as if saying: “O Allah and O So-and-so.” However, the one who makes tawassul through a scholar, for example, never calls upon other than Allah. He only seeks a means to Him through the excellent works that one of His servants achieved, just as the three men in the cave who were blocked by the rock used their good works as a means to have their petition answered.
Similarly irrelevant to the issue is Allah’s saying: “Those unto whom they cry…” for it refers to people who call upon those who cannot fulfill their request, at the same time not calling upon Allah Who can; whereas one who makes tawassul through a scholar, for example, never called except upon Allah, and none other besides Him.
The above shows the reader that these objectors to tawassul are bringing forth evidence that is irrelevant to the issue at hand. Even more irrelevant is their citing of the verse:
· “The Day when no soul shall have power to do anything for another: for the Command, that Day, will be all with Allah.” (82:19)
for that noble verse contains nothing more than the fact that Allah alone decides everything on the Day of Judgment, and that none other will have any say at that time. However, the maker of tawassul through one of the Prophets or one of the scholars, never believes that the one through whom he makes tawassul is in partnership with Allah on the Day of Judgment! Whoever believes such a thing in relation to a Prophet or non-Prophet is in manifest error.
So we can see clearlly here that the Imam is claiming for the prophet of Islam exactly what the catholics is claiming of Mary, intercession, not worship.
So yes the fact still remains, muhammed thought mary to be the third of the trinity.
And acctually the word trinity is not in the quran, the quran says : dont say three.
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morning_star777
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It is an old topic and we discussed many times before.My simple question to muslims,we believe in holy spirit so why allah did not say about holy spirit?in 5:116 why allah did not say that Christians took Jesus and holy spirit as God?I am sure that all muslims will ignore this question like past.But it is the key point.Why allah says about mother mary?he had to say about holy spirit as the so called 3rd partner of God.seems Allah makes mistakes,it’s amazing!!
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rob179ny
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Hey Planten,
Claiming that something is impossible shows your lack of understanding of who God is. Nothing is impossible with God. He has revealed himself to us threw his only son Jesus not Isa. Also lets not forget the devil in all this. All he wants to do is sow confusion. Try to lure the sheep from the one true shepherd. I do not claim to know God fully, to do so would change one of his characteristics in that he is infinite. It’s like taking the ocean and putting it into a cup. I do not have that ability. What I do know is that God loves us all. He died on the cross for us. He now guides the church which he setup. Do not try to understand all of the Trinity without first praying to God and receiving guidance from the church he setup. We are not people of the book, which the Koran gets wrong. We are a people of God. He is our Father we are his children. The bible is a family heirloom, shall I say. Do not try to tell me what our ancestors meant, when it is still passed down through our fathers. In this situation your not even an acquaintance. So please show some respect for God and his family and take your shoes off when you enter.
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dzheremi
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dzheremi
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(continued from above)
It is not a riddle for us, either. Do you also call Allah a “riddle”? This seems improper. No, Planten…it is not a riddle, it is not a Math problem…it is not anything other than the manner in which God has revealed Himself to us, so that through Him we may enter His heavenly kingdom.
I am not sure how to respond to this. On one hand, it certainly sets off my internal blasphemeter, because it denies God the Father and the Holy Spirit, a terrible, grevious sin (comparable to “shirk” for a Muslim). But since you do not understand the Trinity to begin with, perhaps it is best to say that Jesus IS the only God, because He is eternally of one substance/essence with the Father, so they are not able to be separated in the way that you are trying to do. I can say with no amount of discomfort that Jesus is the only true God because Jesus is not something other than God - He is GOD INCARNATE. Jesus is God, God the Father is God, and the Holy Spirit is God. They are all God, and God is ONE. Any talk you hear of “persons”, “members”, “aspects”, whatever, is a manner of conceptualizing that which is truly beyond our understanding as human beings. This should make sense to you as a Muslim, unless you literally believe that Allah has flesh and blood hands and eyes, since such metaphors are used in Islamic scripture.
This line of thinking relates to your inability to understand the incarnation. Jesus Christ is the incarnation. To say that Jesus created Mary seems strange, but then Jesus is the Logos (word/wisdom) of God, and certainly therefore existed prior to Mary’s time on Earth. There was never a time when God was without His Logos, and His Logos is not something alien to Him (that is, not some introduced substance). So God, Logos and all, created Mary, who bore (not created! remember that the Qur’an affirms the Virgin Birth) the Savior, in joyful submission to the Lord and His plan for her.
In your eyes, perhaps it is.
Being God makes Jesus God. We accept this.
Christians have ONE God. It is the Qur’an and hence the Muslims that want to make it into a Math problem, because it/they don’t understand it. Christians do not have a problem accepting it, because it is the bedrock of our faith.
Does it? I thought a whole avenue of argument taken up by our Muslim friends here is that Trinity is not mentioned, and since Sister Amy point out that the language is so precise that we cannot assume that it means Trinity, maybe you shouldn’t assume it does either. Or maybe you and Sister Amy can debate this point. For me, it is not necessary. There is ONE God, and He is as He is described in the Bible, not the Qur’an.
I am not the one who wrote the Qur’anic verse where Allah asks Jesus about the worship of Him and His mother as Gods. This is not a true depiction of Christianity, so it is the Qur’an that puts this mistake into the mouth of Allah, not me. I am not responsible for what is in the Qur’an or what is not.
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rob179ny
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Thanks for saying what I was not able to at this time.
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inJESUS
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hamba2han
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(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
Christians are probably the greatest mental contortionists in the world.
Religion is NOT supposed to be this complex that it requires the faithful to turn and twist their minds in ways that will enable their thoughts and sentiments to fit into places where it is just not meant to fit.
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inJESUS
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being a Sunni maybe you can tell your Sunni scholars to simplify things instead of calling the Quran eternal and uncreated yet not Allah.
If you think religion is to put God into a box your mind can fit then you have been deceived. Besides, all this turnin round the bush does not adress why Muhammad did not get things straight being taught by “Jibreel”.
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planten
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morning_star777
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rob179ny
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planten
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rob179ny
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St_Gregory
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Call me Greg
Anyway, I genuinely feel that your claim that “[in the Quran] every report about the christians is [factually] true and correct” is unrealistic and I’d maybe go as far as to say “and you know it”.
Christians ONLY worship God and ascribe to Him no partners. That’s that.
Maybe it is the Church’s fault, but my question remains unanswered in that: how can God condemn Christians (and others) for believing blasphemous doctrines when they accept those doctrines for honest reasons and out of genuine fear/love of God?
Or did you really mean “there is no condemnation in Islam” in which case a whole new issue is raised. But for now I thought that Islam is VERY keen on teaching the damnation of unbelievers and adulterers? Or was I mistaken and in fact Islam teaches universal salvation?
In what way does praying to saints lead to sin?
Well that’s a theological difference we have then: Christians believe that those who die with a heart that longs for God will go to heaven (or their souls will at least) and therefore they are not dead but alive in Heaven.
So if we take that into consideration I ask: IF someone has reason to believe that someone is alive in Heaven, then how can it be sinful to ask him/her for their prayers?
Okay.
Okay.
Ahh but IS it up to me?
If I disagree with these Islamic beliefs about prayer is that sinful? If it is then surely it is NOT up to me? After all, God has given no one permission to sin. (I’m assuming Muslims agree about that, if not then correct me)
Thanks for replying.
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planten
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Thanks for admitting something useful. I believe you but do not understand how you do that. Your words are good enough.Call me Greg
Anyway, I genuinely feel that your claim that “[in the Quran] every report about the christians is [factually] true and correct” is unrealistic and I’d maybe go as far as to say “and you know it”.
Christians ONLY worship God and ascribe to Him no partners. That’s that.
That is no excuse. The belief has to be right. Otherwise the pagans will also say they serve God sincerely. God is teaching monotheism in the bibleOT and the Quran. Even though a person may accept the wrong doctrine for honest reasons and out of genuine fear/love of God, it will not be accepted by God.
**I cannot say who is being condemned in your mind. Of course there had been Bad Jews who disturbed Moses very much. There have been christians who departed from the real teachings. There have been serious warnings to the believing Muslims about their bad conduct. Allah is the Master. He can condemn the wrong doers.
There is no condemnation of the rightful christians or Jews.
In one verse, it is written that Muslims will find the christians to be more near to Islam because they have some fear of God in their heart.
In another verse of the Quran, the good working Jews and christians and sabians have been together with the good muslims, at same level and told that they have nothign to worry about their future and nothing to feel sorry for what they did in the past.**
**Prayer is only for the One God and we should beseech (seek) His Love and Mercy. We should not pray to any idol or living or dead person. Those saints who have passed away in the lap of God enjoying a good life (time). Their life is different now.
Their chapter is closed. They are getting good news from their Lord. But their account is closed. They cannot do any good or bad deed now.
I do not know how to explain all that to you now. May be later, I have some idea. Then I will do**.
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**I have written that prophets and saints are alive, in a different sense. Their life is different now. They are being well fed by their Lord with spiritual food. They do not need anythign. Yet we should pray to God for their ranks to be raised ever more. That will give us some good reward too for remembering them in our prayers to God Almighty
More in next post…
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planten
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**Yes, it is upto you to believe what you honestly find to be right. You will be judged and rewarded accordingly. There is no force on you to accept what I had said. There is no compulsion.
Of course God has left all to every one. He did not permitted any one to sin means He did not like that people commit sin.**
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