Quran 5:32

[Jay53]

Now here, it is being discussed by Jay and Eucharisted that Muhammad was decieved by the devil (Satan). Far from it. We Muslims do not believe that Jesus was tempted by a devil for forty days. We do not believe that satan ever came near to Jesus or his mother.

But the christians friends have a good heart of suggesting that Muhammad was misled by the devil. That is not “Do unto others as you would like to be done to you.” Please think over your wandering ideas ! According to Jay and Eucharisted, it is the devil who is the auther of The Book, i.e. Quran?? Please be sensible.

No, I did not say Satan was the author of the Quran, but I truly believe with all my heart that he influenced Muhammad. Your denial of the fact that Jesus was tempted by the devil (BTW, he was not tempted for 40 days, he was tempted after fasting for 40 days in the desert.) IMO adds to my theory, because Jesus did not give in to the devil’s temptations so obviously Satan would not want his own failure documented in the Quran. I believe Eucharisted also indicated that none of Jesus’ miracles in casting out demons are included in the Quran either. Perhaps you can confirm that for me?

 

[Sister_Amy]

Oh no!!!

Oh no, oh no, oh noooooooooooo!!!

Please, we need to stop. I’m so sorry I haven’t responded sooner, there is an issue which must be resolved immediately!!

Before this discussion can continue, I must point out something heavily serious.

Jay, you were gracious enough to direct me to the site where you are reading Qur’an. I am glad you did, because I have something I need to say about that site–I did visit it, and I found it to be an exact replica of a website that I have previously been on alert for, maintained by a heretical sect of Islam.

This is something pretty serious, actually. The sect makes a variety of claims which call in to question or might even invalidate their Islam–they claim to follow a prophet after the Prophet (pbuh) and they do not follow the teachings of the Prophet (pbuh) because they reject his Sunnah. That’s a very serious claim.

The translation of the Qur’an which has been posted on their site is problematic for me–first of all, it is in some ways a good translation because it is in easy to read language and often makes references to relevant historical data to help the reader understand. But there is a much bigger problem with the translation, and the reasons why I will never recommend it to anyone: the translator (who is the founder of this heretical sect) actually removed two verses from the Qur’an!! He did actually removed, because of his bizarre mathematical theory, in fact attempt to alter the Book of Allah–and for that alone he ought to be rejected.

Additionally, he disregards many of the teachings of the Qur’an and imposes additional interpretations which have never been accepted by scholars of Islam–his “footnotes” often guide the reader away from the true interpretation of the Qur’an!!

So please Jay, I am begging you, please do not read from that Qur’an.

I can offer you a much better resource, at searchquran.net. At this website, a variety of translations are available for you to select and read simultaneously, or you can just read one at a time (or two, or three, etc.) You can also specify which verses you would like to read by typing them into the text box–which also can serve as a search engine.

I think it is very important that if you are going to read the Qur’an to understand Islam the way Muslims understand it, then you owe it to yourself to actually read translations of the Qur’an that represent the view of Muslims.

Because if you are reading the translation of someone whose interpretation is known to be flawed such that he can be called a heretic, then you will undoubtedly find within it man-made flaws and mistakes, which have nothing to do with the true Qur’an.

So I would ask you not to use that particular site to learn about Islam. If you like, I can direct you to many more authentic sources about Islam.

 

[Sister_Amy]

A note to Eucharisted and other posters–

Claims made on the basis of the translation or even worse, the footnotes from the site referenced by Jay earlier in this thread ought to be reviewed in the light of what the real Qur’an actually says.

I would regard anything read in that translation as being highly suspicious unless validated by Islamic opinions from other sources (i.e., by hadith, commentaries on the Qur’an or other translations, or scholarly writings.)

Additionally, and this is very important

The verse in question is talking about the Children of Israel–it is talking about the Jews, and what was revealed to them. It does not say that “mischief in the land” is the criteria which allows Muslims to execute the death penalty in an Islamic society. In fact, Shari’ah is actually quite clear about the offenses which require or permit the death penalty, because such offenses have been outlined in authentic sources. The phrase “mischief in the earth” is not sufficient to be used in a court as a means to order the death penalty on someone committing perhaps a minor crime–the law is far more specific than that.

Refusing to acknowledge the specificity of Islamic law does the Shari’ah a great disservice, is intellectually dishonest, and if done deliberately is misleading, perhaps deceitful.

Someone like Daniel Pipes does, in my opinion, fit such descriptions, of doing Shari’ah a great disservice, being intellectually dishonest, while being deliberately misleading and deceitful.

He is not an authority of Islam.

 

[planten]

---

**[5:30] فَطَوَّعَتْ لَهٗ نَفْسُهٗ قَـتْلَ اَخِيْهِ فَقَتَلَهٗ فَاَصْبَحَ مِنَ الْخٰسِرِيْنَ‏
[5:30] But his mind induced him to kill his brother, so he killed him and became one of the losers.

[5:31] فَبَـعَثَ اللّٰهُ غُرَابًا يَّبْحَثُ فِىْ الْاَرْضِ لِيُرِيَهٗ كَيْفَ يُوَارِىْ سَوْءَةَ اَخِيْهِ‌ؕ قَالَ يَاوَيْلَتٰٓى اَعَجَزْتُ اَنْ اَكُوْنَ مِثْلَ هٰذَا الْغُرَابِ فَاُوَارِىَ سَوْءَةَ اَخِىْ‌ۚ فَاَصْبَحَ مِنَ النّٰدِمِيْنَ‌‌‌ۛ ‌ۚۙ‏
[5:31] Then Allah sent a raven which scratched in the ground, that He might show him how to hide the corpse of his brother. He said, ‘Woe is me! Am I not able to be even like this raven so that I may hide the corpse of my brother?’ And then he became regretful.(wept)

[5:32] مِنْ اَجْلِ ذٰلِكَ‌ ۛ ۚ كَتَبْنَا عَلٰى بَنِىْۤ اِسْرَآءِيْلَ اَنَّهٗ مَنْ قَتَلَ نَفْسَۢا بِغَيْرِ نَفْسٍ اَوْ فَسَادٍ فِىْ الْاَرْضِ فَكَاَنَّمَا قَتَلَ النَّاسَ جَمِيْعًاؕ وَمَنْ اَحْيَاهَا فَكَاَنَّمَاۤ اَحْيَا النَّاسَ جَمِيْعًا‌ؕ وَلَـقَدْ جَآءَتْهُمْ رُسُلُنَا بِالْبَيِّنٰتِ ثُمَّ اِنَّ كَثِيْرًا مِّنْهُمْ بَعْدَ ذٰلِكَ فِىْ الْاَرْضِ لَمُسْرِفُوْنَ‏
[5:32] On account of this, We prescribed for the children of Israel that whosoever killed a person — unless it be for killing a person or for creating disorder in the land — it shall be as if he had killed all mankind; and whoso gave life to one, it shall be as if he had given life to all mankind. And Our Messengers came to them with clear Signs, yet even after that, many of them commit excesses in the land. **

The above was with reference to Abel and Cable. Cable had killed his own brother Abel. Allah told Jews not to kill any one unless it be for just reasons i.e. killing the killer or to kill those who spread unrest or disorder in the land.

Disorder is understandable. i.e. inciting people to violence which may in the end lead people to killing others, killing some one. That is incitement to fight and kill. In the Torah, the short Command was “Thou shall not kill.”

The verse 5:32 is telling that even though it was clearly advised to the children of jacob that they should not kill any one. If they do,it would be as if they hade killed whole mankind… The Quran says that the Jews disobeyed that good order and kept on violating it. Quran is supporting that order, not to kill any one except for just reasons.

 

[inJESUS]

Hello All!

My questions are:

1. What is meant by mischief in the land (or just cause)? Who decides what that means? Is there a list as to what that encompasses?

 

[inJESUS]

Muslims believe that the Torah

was revealed by God, or inspired by God. Perhaps it’s important to point out that Torah and Old Testament are not equivalent words. The Torah is specifically the first five books of the Old Testament only–the Books of Moses, Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy. And that is what Muslims believe was given to Moses, by God.
what about Sahih Bukhari quoting Isaiah as “Torah”?

Muslims also believe in a scripture called Injeel in Arabic, which can probably be best translated as ‘Gospel.’ It is not a text at all, however, not today, but rather it’s best to understand it as being the teachings of Jesus Christ.

 

[Jay53]

Thank you for providing a better website for the Quran. There is nothing worse than trying to get information and then finding an unreliable source. I haven’t viewed that website yet, but I doubt that it is going to change my outlook nevertheless.

For anyone who cares, this is where I stand now:
When I went to Adoration the other night, 3 books jumped out at me immediately. (We have religious books and Bibles available for those in Adoration.) One was The Deceiver that I mentioned earlier. The other two were Eucharistic Miracles by Joan Carroll Cruz and Miracles of the Cross by Bob & Penny Lord. I have not finished reading all 3 of these yet, but it struck me that God has confirmed the Truth of Jesus throughout the centuries through such miracles and through the lives of the saints. I know some Muslims don’t like to discuss any of the Marian apparitions, although I’m not sure as to why not other than their existence proves aspects of Islam false, but there are other miracles and ways that God has confirmed His Truth in Christianity. Perhaps some Muslims can read about the lives of the saints. One that comes to mind is St. Faustina (Faustina Kowalska) who is known to have had visions of both Jesus and Blessed Mother. This has been confirmed by the Church (and I believe they have a rigorous process before they allow such visions to be released to the public). I’m not sure what the Muslim response is to all of the Catholic Saints. ??? Perhaps they are not aware that there are any. ???

I had also asked a question in another thread about which parts of the Gospels are corrupted and why, and the main reply that I remember is that it is any part which contradicts the Quran. And there was no proof offered as to this corruption or even when or how it took place. That sends up a big red flag to me. Now, don’t get me wrong, I don’t hate all Muslims or think they’re all going to hell or think anyone who is not Catholic is doomed or anything like that – but I do believe that Satan had a hand in creating the Quran. For me, I know that Christianity is the Truth because (and I’ve mentioned this in another thread, I think) I had a specific prayer answered directly by Jesus through St. Therese. I remember that moment exactly and it absolutely confirmed my faith in Christ. (Not that I had had any doubts. )
Anyhow, I think I will take a break from the Quran – I don’t seem to grasp a whole lot of it anyway. And I find that some of it just makes me angry/frustrated because I just don’t understand how intelligent people believe some of it. So, I think if I give it a break I will be more at peace.

But, thank you, especially Sister Amy, for all of your information – you seem to be very knowledgeable about your faith and inquisitive enough to find out what you don’t know. I have often thought that you would be an awesome advocate for Christ and for the Truth.
OK, I’ll quit rambling on now.

 

[Muslim_Woman]

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

Salaam/peace

…thank you, especially Sister Amy, for all of your information – you seem to be very knowledgeable about your faith

I wrote in other forum that reverts know more about Islam than us
(born Muslims ). Because they have studied about the religion . May Allah bless our revert sisters & brothers , Amen.

 

[Sister_Amy]

I only know what I have learned from my teachers–may Allah protect them.

 

[swariffin]

Now the question is, where are the Torah and Gospel that were present at Muhammad’s time if Jews and Christians had the same Torah and Gospel for centuries before Muhammad? just where are they? and when Allah asks people to find Muhammad in their books, shouldn’t he at least prove to people that Muhammad is indeed mentioned instead of Muslims claiming corruption because he simply is not there, something totally different in Jesus’ case? i mean, scriptures are used as a proof, how does this square with Muslims’ claims of corruption? how can we make sure Muhammad is a prophet if scriptures are corrupt? or is it that he is a prophet despite everything?

 

[Sister_Amy]

inJESUS;4712165:

Muhammad had the “Gospel” of Thomas, Protoevangelism of James, “Gospel” of Barnabas, “Gospel” of Nicodemus.

Is that right? He had copies of manuscripts translated into Arabic or something, even though he couldn’t read? You’ve got proof? Or just a wishful fancy?

 

[Muslim_Woman]

In the name of Allah , Most Gracious, Most Merciful

Salaam/peace

… is there any Jewish text that explicitly denies the divinity of Christ and condemns any believers in Him to hell? That would be interesting to research - thank you Muslim Woman.

hey , how is your research going on ?

 

[Jay53]

In the name of Allah , Most Gracious, Most Merciful

Salaam/peace

hey , how is your research going on ?

Slow, but thanks for checking. We’ve been busy at work so I haven’t had a whole lot of time for research - and when I have had time I’ve been more mentally drained and just want to relax.

I haven’t found any Jewish texts yet that explicitly deny Jesus’ divinity, but I haven’t searched a whole lot. I would almost think there would have to be some. I did find out there is a group of Jews called Messianic Jews who believe Jesus is the Messiah and their Divine Savior. (I haven’t had time to figure out how they are not then Christians.)

Anyhow, thanks for checking! I’ll keep you posted.

 

[Eucharisted]

Slow, but thanks for checking. We’ve been busy at work so I haven’t had a whole lot of time for research - and when I have had time I’ve been more mentally drained and just want to relax.

I haven’t found any Jewish texts yet that explicitly deny Jesus’ divinity, but I haven’t searched a whole lot. I would almost think there would have to be some. I did find out there is a group of Jews called Messianic Jews who believe Jesus is the Messiah and their Divine Savior. (I haven’t had time to figure out how they are not then Christians.)

Anyhow, thanks for checking! I’ll keep you posted.

The Messianic Jews are like the Jewish Christians in the early days of the Church: they believe in Jesus, but still hold on to their Jewish traditions. Saint Paul said this was not possible, because there is no longer reason to follow the Law; it has been fulfilled in Christ. There is at least one surviving group of Jewish Christians still in the world, but I forget who they are.

Since there is no magisterium in Judaism, you will not find any binding document in Judaism about Jesus. However, there is the teachings of Rabbis and the Torah; based on the First of the Ten Commandments, Jesus would be condenmned in a Jew’s eyes, for He claims to be God, which would be considered blasphemy.

On the teachings of Rabbis, there is a general agreement that Jesus was not a good Jew. On His exact identity, there is almost no agreement: some say a Rabbi, others a magician, stil others a student of a Rabbi, and a few say He was a member of a Jewish sect - such as the Essense. None, however, can provide historical evidence of any of the claims. The rabbinic literature and classical midrash do speak about a Jesus (Yeshu), but it’s not possible to know definitely if it is about the Jesus of Nazareth.

The very best historical record on Jesus is of course the four Gospels. There are also pagan historical documents on Jesus, too, and you can read about them here.

 

[Muslim_Woman]

In the name of Allah , Most Gracious, Most Merciful

Salaam/peace

… there is a group of Jews called Messianic Jews who believe Jesus is the Messiah and their Divine Savior.

I was told in other thread that they are not the mainstream Jews . Really , it’s strange that if one believes Jesus (p) is the Saviour , how then s/he is not a Christian ?

 

[Jay53]

The Messianic Jews are like the Jewish Christians in the early days of the Church: they believe in Jesus, but still hold on to their Jewish traditions. Saint Paul said this was not possible, because there is no longer reason to follow the Law; it has been fulfilled in Christ. There is at least one surviving group of Jewish Christians still in the world, but I forget who they are.

Since there is no magisterium in Judaism, you will not find any binding document in Judaism about Jesus. However, there is the teachings of Rabbis and the Torah; based on the First of the Ten Commandments, Jesus would be condenmned in a Jew’s eyes, for He claims to be God, which would be considered blasphemy.

On the teachings of Rabbis, there is a general agreement that Jesus was not a good Jew. On His exact identity, there is almost no agreement: some say a Rabbi, others a magician, stil others a student of a Rabbi, and a few say He was a member of a Jewish sect - such as the Essense. None, however, can provide historical evidence of any of the claims. The rabbinic literature and classical midrash do speak about a Jesus (Yeshu), but it’s not possible to know definitely if it is about the Jesus of Nazareth.

The very best historical record on Jesus is of course the four Gospels. There are also pagan historical documents on Jesus, too, and you can read about them here.

Thank you for the info., Eucharisted! Since you seem to be so good at finding information - I was trying to find a Jewish text that denies Jesus’ divinity and condemns believers to hell in the same way the Quran does:

They do blaspheme who say: “Allah is Christ the son of Mary.” But said Christ: “O Children of Israel! worship Allah my Lord and your Lord.” Whoever joins other gods with Allah - Allah will forbid him the garden and the Fire will be his abode. There will for the wrong-doers be no one to help…
– Sura 5:72

Please don’t spend too much time looking - I’m not trying to make work for anyone. I just figured I’d put that out there. I haven’t been able to find anything easily - just stuff about how Jewish people don’t believe that Jesus fulfills the requirements for the Messiah, but nothing about the fate of Christians according to Jews.

And I also apologize because all of this discussion is off topic. My original question in the OP was what is meant by “mischief in the land” and who determines what that entails. I don’t think I’ve received a clear definitive answer to that yet.

 

[trdchubi]

…I’m sure there is some issue/explanation there with differences in the Muslim/Jewish/Christian definition of “Messiah”.

The Jewish Messiah, The Christian Messiah and the islamic mahdi

But I also don’t see Jews trying to “take over the world” (that is definately something Satan wants to do) and establish Judaism everywhere in the same way Islam demands the establishment of sharia law…

**
JEWS AND GENTILES** Judaism does not demand that everyone convert to the religion. The Torah of Moses is a truth for all humanity, whether Jewish or not. King Solomon asked God to heed the prayers of non-Jews who come to the Holy Temple (Kings I 8:41-43). The prophet Isaiah refers to the Temple as a “House for all nations.”
The Temple service during Sukkot featured 70 bull offerings, corresponding to the 70 nations of the world. The Talmud says that if the Romans would have realized how much benefit they were getting from the Temple, they’d never have destroyed it.
Jews have never actively sought converts to Judaism because the Torah prescribes a righteous path for gentiles to follow, known as the “Seven Laws of Noah.” Maimonides explains that any human being who faithfully observes these basic moral laws earns a proper place in heaven.

simpletoremember.com/vitals/jewsandjesus.htm#6

 

[Muslim_Woman]

In the name of Allah , Most Gracious, Most Merciful

Salaam/peace

… I was trying to find a Jewish text that denies Jesus’ divinity and condemns believers to hell in the same way the Quran does:

Quran teaches that Jesus (p) is a blessed one. Does Jewish holy book says the same ?

 

[Jay53]

In the name of Allah , Most Gracious, Most Merciful

Salaam/peace

Quran teaches that Jesus (p) is a blessed one. Does Jewish holy book says the same ?

I don’t know. I only know that they don’t believe in the divinity of Jesus. I haven’t found anything yet that says that Christians who do believe in the divinity of Christ are condemned to hell the way the Quran does.

Muslim Woman - maybe you can answer my OP - what is meant by “mischief in the land” and who determines what that is?

 

[Sister_Amy]

I already answered your question–

It doesn’t matter what “mischief in the land is” in this verse because it’s not making a law for Muslims.