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swariffin
Guest
According to Islam, which part of the bible was altered and which wasn’t?
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sedonaman
Guest
Noah, Abraham, Issac, and Moses came before Jesus. So who was he referring to as “robbers” and “misleaders” who came before him if he wasn’t including them? If you understood what Jesus meant, then tell us.** …
We have understood what Jesus meant by that all were robbers, he was not referring to Noah, Abraham or Issac or Moses a.s.**
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planten
Guest
** sedonaman, you are asking me about bible. Please first tell me what you understand by the words of Jesus. Who were robbers? I did not put those words in the bible. It is your responsibility to explain the bible, please. You lead the way.**Noah, Abraham, Issac, and Moses came before Jesus. So who was he referring to as “robbers” and “misleaders” who came before him if he wasn’t including them? If you understood what Jesus meant, then tell us.
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Sister_Amy
Guest
Eh? That’s not what makes me so sure the Qur’an is the word of God. The Qur’an itself can do that.You only based your posting on the what you called faith that Quran is the word of God. The point you never answer is why do you so sure that Quran is the word of God other than “Muhammad said so”.
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inJESUS
Guest
which Quran? which transmission? Hafs, Warsh or Qaloun? you surely know they aren’t 100% identical.Eh? That’s not what makes me so sure the Qur’an is the word of God. The Qur’an itself can do that.
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sedonaman
Guest
You are the one who originally quoted the Bible, not me. So, I am now asking you why you quote the Bible if you don’t know what it means.** sedonaman, you are asking me about bible. **
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sedonaman
Guest
St. Augustine asks: “Who does not see that knowledge precedes faith? Nobody believes unless he knows what to believe.” newadvent.org/cathen/13598b.htm
Muslims believe the only true Qur’an is in Arabic, but they also make the claim that you don’t have to know Arabic to become a Muslim. If knowledge must precede faith, how can one become a Muslim if he doesn’t know what the true Qur’an says by first learning Arabic? An Islamic scholar will tell you? Fair enough, but in what language will he tell you? If you’re not a Arabic speaker, it will be the same as reading a non-Arabic Qur’an. It’s a “Catch 22” that Muslims cannot explain their way out of – and one of the many corners they’ve painted themselves into.
Anyone can stand up and claim to have a message from God or about God. But the question is, as people who sincerely want to know, how are we to determine whether or not someone is actually speaking the truth from God? How are we to know if they are speaking divine truths or if they are just pretending or delusional?
Since he produced no miracles, Mohammed had only one method of validation that he was not just making things up – his appeal to other known apostles and scriptures as confirmation of his own message.
But…
Being illiterate, he bungled the job. He was only vaguely familiar with Jewish and Christian scriptures, and as a result he got things mixed up. He even has Moses as Jesus’ uncle because he confused Miriam [Moses’ sister] with Mary, Jesus’ mother.
And that’s only a minor error.
Mohammed and Islam contradict what the Qur’an itself repeatedly declares to be God’s apostles and God’s scriptures.
Therefore …
Islam is in error through contradiction, not just contradiction with Judeo-Christianity, but contradiction with itself because of the endorsement claims made by the Qur’an.
With the widespread availability of information via modern telecommunications [the Internet, etc.], it became vital that these inconsistencies and contradictions be explained away. After all, nothing that is perfect contradicts itself. In order to facilitate the cover-up, Muslim scholars ?] had to create the myth that the Bible [OT and NT] had become “corrupted” by man’s writing things into it, all the while claiming that their Qur’an is the “perfect word of God” and “not subject to human interpretation” – and offering up as some sort of “proof” the claim that it had been handed down [orally in some cases] for 1,400 years without so much as a single dot being changed. A quick comparison of Old English of the Middle Ages and modern English shows that language does change, and to claim Arabic is an exception stretches credibility. On the other hand, as proof that none of these Muslim claims of the miraculous Qur’an is true, we have Spencer’s research that shows “One Muslim translator, Yusuf Ali, clearly disturbed by this verse [Sura IV.34 which authorizes men to beat their wives] adds the word ‘lightly’ in brackets after ‘beat’ even though there is no ‘lightly’ in the original Arabic.” This change to the unchangeable had to be made so that Islam would be more palatable to non-Muslim sensibilities. So much for the “miracle” of the unchangeable “perfect word of God” which is “not subject to human interpretation.” Ironically, this is exactly the sort of “corruption” that Muslims claim was introduced into the Bible.
In addition to all these contradictions, corruptions, and inconsistencies, if Islam is true, then Christianity makes no sense since Islam contradicts Christianity. Why would God send a Messiah to start a false religion that would mislead millions? On the other hand, if Christianity is true, Islam can be easily explained as a product of normal human affairs and ambitions, and Mohammed as in fact just one of the false prophets predicted by Jesus, and just one more despot who discovered that you can profit materially more in this life with a kind word and a sword than you can with just a kind word.
Conclusion:
Mohammed made up his “prophethood” to satisfy his own ambition for power, or was delusional [or both]. Of course, there is always the third possibility: he was a tool of Satan. Take your pick; you will probably be just as accurate by guessing as Mohammed was in his interpretation of the Bible.
Muslims believe the only true Qur’an is in Arabic, but they also make the claim that you don’t have to know Arabic to become a Muslim. If knowledge must precede faith, how can one become a Muslim if he doesn’t know what the true Qur’an says by first learning Arabic? An Islamic scholar will tell you? Fair enough, but in what language will he tell you? If you’re not a Arabic speaker, it will be the same as reading a non-Arabic Qur’an. It’s a “Catch 22” that Muslims cannot explain their way out of – and one of the many corners they’ve painted themselves into.
The Spread of Heresy
The growth of heresy, like the growth of plants, depends on surrounding influences, even more than on its vital force. Philosophies, religious ideals and aspirations, social and economic conditions, are brought into contact with revealed truth, and from the impact result both new affirmations and new negations of the traditional doctrine.
- The first requisite for success is a forceful man, not necessarily of great intellect and learning, but of strong will and daring action. Such were the men who in all ages have given their names to new sects.
- The second requisite is accommodation of the new doctrine to the contemporary mentality, to social and political conditions.
- The last, but by no means the least, is the support of secular rulers.
And so it was with Mohammed. He meets all three conditions. There is no evidence other than hearsay that Mohammed is any kind of “prophet” of Allah or any other god. The Qur’an is a mish-mash of incoherence resulting from a crude attempt to copy ideas and stories from the Bible in order to gain credibility among primitive tribes for his own “prophethood.”A strong man in touch with his time, and supported by material force, may deform the existing religion and build up a new heretical sect.
newadvent.org/cathen/07256b.htm#REF_V
Anyone can stand up and claim to have a message from God or about God. But the question is, as people who sincerely want to know, how are we to determine whether or not someone is actually speaking the truth from God? How are we to know if they are speaking divine truths or if they are just pretending or delusional?
Since he produced no miracles, Mohammed had only one method of validation that he was not just making things up – his appeal to other known apostles and scriptures as confirmation of his own message.
But…
Being illiterate, he bungled the job. He was only vaguely familiar with Jewish and Christian scriptures, and as a result he got things mixed up. He even has Moses as Jesus’ uncle because he confused Miriam [Moses’ sister] with Mary, Jesus’ mother.
And that’s only a minor error.
Mohammed and Islam contradict what the Qur’an itself repeatedly declares to be God’s apostles and God’s scriptures.
Therefore …
Islam is in error through contradiction, not just contradiction with Judeo-Christianity, but contradiction with itself because of the endorsement claims made by the Qur’an.
With the widespread availability of information via modern telecommunications [the Internet, etc.], it became vital that these inconsistencies and contradictions be explained away. After all, nothing that is perfect contradicts itself. In order to facilitate the cover-up, Muslim scholars ?] had to create the myth that the Bible [OT and NT] had become “corrupted” by man’s writing things into it, all the while claiming that their Qur’an is the “perfect word of God” and “not subject to human interpretation” – and offering up as some sort of “proof” the claim that it had been handed down [orally in some cases] for 1,400 years without so much as a single dot being changed. A quick comparison of Old English of the Middle Ages and modern English shows that language does change, and to claim Arabic is an exception stretches credibility. On the other hand, as proof that none of these Muslim claims of the miraculous Qur’an is true, we have Spencer’s research that shows “One Muslim translator, Yusuf Ali, clearly disturbed by this verse [Sura IV.34 which authorizes men to beat their wives] adds the word ‘lightly’ in brackets after ‘beat’ even though there is no ‘lightly’ in the original Arabic.” This change to the unchangeable had to be made so that Islam would be more palatable to non-Muslim sensibilities. So much for the “miracle” of the unchangeable “perfect word of God” which is “not subject to human interpretation.” Ironically, this is exactly the sort of “corruption” that Muslims claim was introduced into the Bible.
In addition to all these contradictions, corruptions, and inconsistencies, if Islam is true, then Christianity makes no sense since Islam contradicts Christianity. Why would God send a Messiah to start a false religion that would mislead millions? On the other hand, if Christianity is true, Islam can be easily explained as a product of normal human affairs and ambitions, and Mohammed as in fact just one of the false prophets predicted by Jesus, and just one more despot who discovered that you can profit materially more in this life with a kind word and a sword than you can with just a kind word.
Conclusion:
Mohammed made up his “prophethood” to satisfy his own ambition for power, or was delusional [or both]. Of course, there is always the third possibility: he was a tool of Satan. Take your pick; you will probably be just as accurate by guessing as Mohammed was in his interpretation of the Bible.
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planten
Guest
sedonaman, instead of answering the riddle of the robbers, you have started hate compaign.
Do you feel that the message should be conveyed by God in every language of the word to every person in his own language.
I do not see any problem in Quran more than you have in the bible. You have the translations only, of the original words of God which you people are busy manipulating, altering, improving in the name of something. that is your bibles. That is like our translations of the Quran. **.
**It is like your bible in English and German. We have Quran in every language. So every one can understand what God is saying. We can understand the message in our own language. Then it is up to every one to believe or not. The original Quran is preserved in Arabic.Muslims believe the only true Qur’an is in Arabic, but they also make the claim that you don’t have to know Arabic to become a Muslim. If knowledge must precede faith, how can one become a Muslim if he doesn’t know what the true Qur’an says by first learning Arabic? An Islamic scholar will tell you? Fair enough, but in what language will he tell you?
Do you feel that the message should be conveyed by God in every language of the word to every person in his own language.
I do not see any problem in Quran more than you have in the bible. You have the translations only, of the original words of God which you people are busy manipulating, altering, improving in the name of something. that is your bibles. That is like our translations of the Quran. **.
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neploho
Guest
Actually the Qur’an and Hadith do make dietary laws. The Islamic dietary laws are distinct from Jewish dietary laws.Yes, you have made a good point.
It is a long time ago since I read the Koran, and I can’t remember now all of its details. As far as I recall, the Koran does say that the Bible has been changed. But at the same time, it enjoins the Moslems to study it, and learn God’s will from it, which suggests that it still considers it to be the word and will of God. It does not suggest that the Bible is so corrupt that it is worthless as a source of theology—which is what Moslems imply.
Moslem theologians do not use the Bible as a source of their theology. They only use the Koran and Hadith. That is contrary to what the Koran itself teaches. For example, if I recall correctly, the Koran does not give detailed instructions about Islamic dietary laws. But it says simply, “what we have made lawful for them (the Jews) we have made lawful for you” (or words to that effect). In other words, it is referring the Moslems to the Bible to learn their dietary laws. But the Moslems never use the Bible as a source of their theology—not even as a secondary source. Their primary source is the Koran, and their secondary source is the Hadith. The Bible doesn’t even come third after that! That is contrary to the specific instructions of the Koran.
zerinus
With regard to the past scripture. I have not seen a universal teaching. The Qur’an does say the people of scripture have corrupted the revelation Allah and his messengers gave to them, but the particulars of this seem a bit “up in the air”. Some, like Seyyed Hossein Nasr seem to accecpt the scriptures, but dispute the interpretations even if maintaining some “transcendent unity of religions” while some like Abdullah Muhammad Ali and Muhammad Asad say the text of the scripture is corrupted. Factually Ali and Asad are more correct, althogh in many ways this seems to count against the Qur’anic claim as the corruptions and innovations, in the case of the Jewish text, move towards monotheism and away from heno or polytheism. Yahweh moves through the adaptations and clarifications more towards Allah and becomes less like the local, tribal deity of the very early Jews.
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Sister_Amy
Guest
Not identical but not different in meaning, either.which Quran? which transmission? Hafs, Warsh or Qaloun? you surely know they aren’t 100% identical.
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Sister_Amy
Guest
The Qur’an does not enjoin Muslims to study the Bible.
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neploho
Guest
Isn’t the claim that one can “think their way to God” a heresy? I thought faith came through an infusion of divine grace?St. Augustine asks: “Who does not see that knowledge precedes faith? Nobody believes unless he knows what to believe.” newadvent.org/cathen/13598b.htm
Muslims believe the only true Qur’an is in Arabic, but they also make the claim that you don’t have to know Arabic to become a Muslim. If knowledge must precede faith, how can one become a Muslim if he doesn’t know what the true Qur’an says by first learning Arabic? An Islamic scholar will tell you? Fair enough, but in what language will he tell you? If you’re not a Arabic speaker, it will be the same as reading a non-Arabic Qur’an. It’s a “Catch 22” that Muslims cannot explain their way out of – and one of the many corners they’ve painted themselves into.
As for your argument, it is silly. Simply because one cannot read the “true Qur’an” does not mean that cannot know the intellectual and religious content of the revelation.
The structure of your argument seems to be something like this.
Knowledge of the content of a religion logically preceded faith in that religion.
You then try to conjoin knowledge of the faith with an ability to read the pristine “word of God”, but of course there is no reason to suppose this is the case. You position it as though the ‘fact’ that a translation from the “pristine Arabic” was no longer the literal word of God altered the intellectual content of the Qur’anic propositions.
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Sam_777
Guest
Someone needs Arabic knowledge to see the differences between those, also the English translations even worst, an example of that see this corrupted Quran that planten is using:which Quran? which transmission? Hafs, Warsh or Qaloun? you surely know they aren’t 100% identical.
[30:1] Alif Lam Mim.
[30:1] اَنَا اللّٰہُ اَعلَمُ: ۔
The Arabic words are completely different!, they should read:
الم
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sedonaman
Guest
It’s not my position; it’s the Muslim position.…
You position it as though the ‘fact’ that a translation from the “pristine Arabic” was no longer the literal word of God altered the intellectual content of the Qur’anic propositions.
According to this Islamic website, all that is required is to submit to Allah and memorize a few prayers in the Qur’an. But, to submit to Allah, it is necessary to know his will, and where do you find it but in the Qur’an? “Learning Arabic will be an advantage as there is a big difference between reading the translations of the Qur’an and the original text in Arabic,” the site continues.
And here is what a Muslim posted on another site: “Only Arabic can convey the true meanings [of the Qur’an], and translations of the meaning have lost total understanding of the verses.”
So anything you tell us in English [or any non-Arabic language] about Islam is meaningless because you are translating from Arabic. If you are not translating from Arabic but from some other non-Arabic language to English, so much the worse because it will have gone through two translations, not just one. In either event, “only Arabic can convey the true meanings and translations of the meaning have lost total understanding of the verses” and “there is a big difference between reading the translations of the Qur’an and the original text in Arabic.”
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inJESUS
Guest
Not identical
which one is the exact representation of the eternal tablet in heaven? which one is what Allah exactly uttered? which one is the “unchanged Quran, not even in one dot”?
but not different in meaning, either.
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sedonaman
Guest
I am not the only one who has criticized you for turning a question back. We refuse to fall for that trick, so give up.sedonaman, instead of answering the riddle of the robbers, you have started hate compaign.
If Mohammed affirms previous apostles and scriptures as being sent from God in order to support his own authenticity, then Mohammed becomes subject to comparison with their teachings, as part of the process of determining whether or not he actually spoke divine truths or if they he was just pretending or delusional [or both].
When this comparison is made, we find minor and major contradictions in the Qur’an … contradictions with the teachings Mohammed appeals to for support and contradictions with itself. In order to explain these contradictions, he claims the Bible had been corrupted. But even then, if he claims it had been corrupted, then how can he appeal to it for his own authenticity? Mohammed thus put himself into an inescapable dilemma, but it is analysis [that quotes Mohammed, BTW] like this that is a “hate campaign.”
Why is questioning his claims a “hate campaign”? Mohammed is the one making the claims, not me. Answer: Because not everyone takes what Mohammed and the Qur’an say without question, and for Muslims it is apostasy to question Mohammed, and for non-believers it is some kind of blasphemy.
If Islam was true, none of this would be necessary because truth can stand up to scrutiny, whereas falsehood is exposed. This debate itself is just more proof that Islam is false, and therefore a “hate campaign.”
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planten
Guest
** You have still not explained why Jesus called all those who came before him as robbers. You have failed to understand the bible or you do not want to explain??**I am not the only one who has criticized you for turning a question back. We refuse to fall for that trick, so give up.
**He does not affirm earlier prophets because he needs something… Muhammad is “Khaatam an Nabiyyeen”, i.e. the super seal of the prophets. All prophets were granted prophethood through him. Muhammad carries the seal of the prophets and the prophethood of all prophets is authenticated by his seal.If Mohammed affirms previous apostles and scriptures as being sent from God in order to support his own authenticity, then Mohammed becomes subject to comparison with their teachings, as part of the process of determining whether or not he actually spoke divine truths or if they he was just pretending or delusional [or both].
If Muhammad had not authenticated the prophethood of Jesus and John the baptist then nobody would have known them. Muhammad has proved the prophethood of all prophets.
You people are mistaken. When a man (Jesus) is walking about, you believe that he was God (even though he never himself said so.) But you believe that he is God. What proof was there? Nothing. But you believe taht he was God.
When Muhammad comes and recieves messages from God and he says that he is a messenger of God, you do not believe that. You need some proof for that. You want to see some proof of his prophethood, even though there have been thousands of prophets before him. What proof did they have of their prophethood?? Same was the proof for Muhammad.
Muhammad claiming to be a mere man and a prophet, you do not believe. You need some signal or plate or something. What did Jesus have with him? Any angel walked with Jesus telling mankind that he was God?? Not at all.
So you people have your own bad wishes, i.e. double standard. Please think over.**
.”When this comparison is made, we find minor and major contradictions in the Qur’an … contradictions with the teachings Mohammed appeals to for support and contradictions with itself. In order to explain these contradictions, he claims the Bible had been corrupted. But even then, if he claims it had been corrupted, then how can he appeal to it for his own authenticity? Mohammed thus put himself into an inescapable dilemma, but it is analysis [that quotes Mohammed, BTW] like this that is a “hate campaign
There is no contradiction in Quran. Please show it in actual words.
Why is questioning his claims a “hate campaign”? Mohammed is the one making the claims, not me. Answer: Because not everyone takes what Mohammed and the Qur’an say without question, and for Muslims it is apostasy to question Mohammed, and for non-believers it is some kind of blasphemy.
Yes, you may say and believe what you like. But please do not make your wishes as your guide.If Islam was true, none of this would be necessary because truth can stand up to scrutiny, whereas falsehood is exposed. This debate itself is just more proof that Islam is false, and therefore a “hate campaign.”
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empurpledsoul
Guest
You need to quote the appropriate text for your question to be answered.You have still not explained why Jesus called all those who came before him as robbers. You have failed to understand the bible or you do not want to explain??
E
empurpledsoul
Guest
You are here: God >> The Bible >> John 10
1 "I assure you, anyone who sneaks over the wall of a sheepfold, rather than going through the gate, must surely be a thief and a robber!
2 For a shepherd enters through the gate.
3 The gatekeeper opens the gate for him, and the sheep hear his voice and come to him. He calls his own sheep by name and leads them out.
4 After he has gathered his own flock, he walks ahead of them, and they follow him because they recognize his voice.
5 They won’t follow a stranger; they will run from him because they don’t recognize his voice."
6 Those who heard Jesus use this illustration didn’t understand what he meant,
7 so he explained it to them. “I assure you, I am the gate for the sheep,” he said.
8 "All others who came before me were thieves and robbers. But the true sheep did not listen to them.
9 Yes, I am the gate. Those who come in through me will be saved. Wherever they go, they will find green pastures.
10 The thief’s purpose is to steal and kill and destroy. My purpose is to give life in all its fullness.
11 "I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.
12 A hired hand will run when he sees a wolf coming. He will leave the sheep because they aren’t his and he isn’t their shepherd. And so the wolf attacks them and scatters the flock.
13 The hired hand runs away because he is merely hired and has no real concern for the sheep.
14 "I am the good shepherd; I know my own sheep, and they know me,
15 just as my Father knows me and I know the Father. And I lay down my life for the sheep.
16 I have other sheep, too, that are not in this sheepfold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice; and there will be one flock with one shepherd.
17 "The Father loves me because I lay down my life that I may have it back again.
18 No one can take my life from me. I lay down my life voluntarily. For I have the right to lay it down when I want to and also the power to take it again. For my Father has given me this command."
19 When he said these things, the people* were again divided in their opinions about him.1
20 Some of them said, “He has a demon, or he’s crazy. Why listen to a man like that?”
21 Others said, “This doesn’t sound like a man possessed by a demon! Can a demon open the eyes of the blind?”
22 It was now winter, and Jesus was in Jerusalem at the time of Hanukkah.*2
23 He was at the Temple, walking through the section known as Solomon’s Colonnade.
24 The Jewish leaders surrounded him and asked, “How long are you going to keep us in suspense? If you are the Messiah, tell us plainly.”
25 Jesus replied, "I have already told you, and you don’t believe me. The proof is what I do in the name of my Father.
26 But you don’t believe me because you are not part of my flock.
27 My sheep recognize my voice; I know them, and they follow me.
28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish. No one will snatch them away from me,
29 for my Father has given them to me, and he is more powerful than anyone else. So no one can take them from me.
30 The Father and I are one."
31 Once again the Jewish leaders picked up stones to kill him.
32 Jesus said, “At my Father’s direction I have done many things to help the people. For which one of these good deeds are you killing me?”
33 They replied, “Not for any good work, but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, have made yourself God.”
34 Jesus replied, "It is written in your own law that God said to certain leaders of the people, `I say, you are gods!’*3
35 And you know that the Scriptures cannot be altered. So if those people, who received God’s message, were called `gods,’
36 why do you call it blasphemy when the Holy One who was sent into the world by the Father says, `I am the Son of God’?
37 Don’t believe me unless I carry out my Father’s work.
38 But if I do his work, believe in what I have done, even if you don’t believe me. Then you will realize that the Father is in me, and I am in the Father."
39 Once again they tried to arrest him, but he got away and left them.
40 He went beyond the Jordan River to stay near the place where John was first baptizing.
41 And many followed him. “John didn’t do miracles,” they remarked to one another, “but all his predictions about this man have come true.”
42 And many believed in him there.
1 "I assure you, anyone who sneaks over the wall of a sheepfold, rather than going through the gate, must surely be a thief and a robber!
2 For a shepherd enters through the gate.
3 The gatekeeper opens the gate for him, and the sheep hear his voice and come to him. He calls his own sheep by name and leads them out.
4 After he has gathered his own flock, he walks ahead of them, and they follow him because they recognize his voice.
5 They won’t follow a stranger; they will run from him because they don’t recognize his voice."
6 Those who heard Jesus use this illustration didn’t understand what he meant,
7 so he explained it to them. “I assure you, I am the gate for the sheep,” he said.
8 "All others who came before me were thieves and robbers. But the true sheep did not listen to them.
9 Yes, I am the gate. Those who come in through me will be saved. Wherever they go, they will find green pastures.
10 The thief’s purpose is to steal and kill and destroy. My purpose is to give life in all its fullness.
11 "I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.
12 A hired hand will run when he sees a wolf coming. He will leave the sheep because they aren’t his and he isn’t their shepherd. And so the wolf attacks them and scatters the flock.
13 The hired hand runs away because he is merely hired and has no real concern for the sheep.
14 "I am the good shepherd; I know my own sheep, and they know me,
15 just as my Father knows me and I know the Father. And I lay down my life for the sheep.
16 I have other sheep, too, that are not in this sheepfold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice; and there will be one flock with one shepherd.
17 "The Father loves me because I lay down my life that I may have it back again.
18 No one can take my life from me. I lay down my life voluntarily. For I have the right to lay it down when I want to and also the power to take it again. For my Father has given me this command."
19 When he said these things, the people* were again divided in their opinions about him.1
20 Some of them said, “He has a demon, or he’s crazy. Why listen to a man like that?”
21 Others said, “This doesn’t sound like a man possessed by a demon! Can a demon open the eyes of the blind?”
22 It was now winter, and Jesus was in Jerusalem at the time of Hanukkah.*2
23 He was at the Temple, walking through the section known as Solomon’s Colonnade.
24 The Jewish leaders surrounded him and asked, “How long are you going to keep us in suspense? If you are the Messiah, tell us plainly.”
25 Jesus replied, "I have already told you, and you don’t believe me. The proof is what I do in the name of my Father.
26 But you don’t believe me because you are not part of my flock.
27 My sheep recognize my voice; I know them, and they follow me.
28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish. No one will snatch them away from me,
29 for my Father has given them to me, and he is more powerful than anyone else. So no one can take them from me.
30 The Father and I are one."
31 Once again the Jewish leaders picked up stones to kill him.
32 Jesus said, “At my Father’s direction I have done many things to help the people. For which one of these good deeds are you killing me?”
33 They replied, “Not for any good work, but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, have made yourself God.”
34 Jesus replied, "It is written in your own law that God said to certain leaders of the people, `I say, you are gods!’*3
35 And you know that the Scriptures cannot be altered. So if those people, who received God’s message, were called `gods,’
36 why do you call it blasphemy when the Holy One who was sent into the world by the Father says, `I am the Son of God’?
37 Don’t believe me unless I carry out my Father’s work.
38 But if I do his work, believe in what I have done, even if you don’t believe me. Then you will realize that the Father is in me, and I am in the Father."
39 Once again they tried to arrest him, but he got away and left them.
40 He went beyond the Jordan River to stay near the place where John was first baptizing.
41 And many followed him. “John didn’t do miracles,” they remarked to one another, “but all his predictions about this man have come true.”
42 And many believed in him there.
J
jakasaki
Guest
John 10
This must be understood with some restrictions,8 "All others who came before me were thieves and robbers. But the true sheep did not listen to them.
not of every individual person,
nor of every individual prophet or shepherd;
not of Moses,
nor of the prophets of the Lord,
nor of John the Baptist, who came immediately before Christ, was his harbinger, and prepared his way;
**but of those prophets who came,
and were not sent of God, **
**and so did not come in by the door;
of the shepherds of Israel, who fed themselves,
and not the flock, but lorded it over God’s heritage;
and of such,
as Theudas,
and Judas the Galilean, who boasted that they were some great persons, but were only thieves and robbers;
and particularly of the three shepherds cut off in one month, ~Zechariah 11:8~ ,
supposed to be the three sects among the Jews,
and the leaders of them,
the Pharisees,
Sadducees,
and Essenes,
especially the former; who were wolves in sheep’s clothing, usurped a power that did not belong to them,
robbed God of his authority,
and glory; and,
in a literal sense, plundered men of their substance,
and devoured widows’ houses, as well as destroyed their souls. **
The phrase, “before me”, is wanting in seven of Beza’s exemplars, and in several others; and in the Vulgate Latin, Syriac, and Persic versions:
but the sheep did not hear them;
the elect of God, some of which there were in all ages, though their number is comparatively few,
did not attend to the false prophets,
and false teachers,
and idol shepherds;
did not receive their doctrines,
nor follow their practices;
for it is not possible that these should be finally and totally deceived,
or carried away with the error of the wicked.
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