Quran

[inJESUS]

The above paragraph shows that you have no idea what you are talking about. The recitation is the same, the arabs knew the marks and vowels, they were only added for non-Arabs to make it easier for them to read. For example, if in English I say “The boy is sleeping on the bd” since you know english from the context you know that it is bed and not bid or bud or bad. This is how it was for the arabs, the non-arabs didn’t know, thus vowels and marks were added there, but the sound is still the same.

sorry bro, this is plainly wrong…arabs themselves had difficulties…you know arabic so here we go: what are the words of this arabic sentence :

1- فتل الرجل
2- و عبد الطغت

i deleted vowels and marks from both sentences…would you tell me what they are?

As for more than the dozen readings, they existed in the time of the Prophet peace be upon him and still exist today and are all correct. The Prophet peace be upn him confirmed them himself.

no, mohammad allowed 7 variants but there are dozens…in other words, some sentences could be read in dozens of ways as muslim scholars agree.

The abrogated verses are still in the Quran today, so yes they are in the tablet as well.

what i meant is this : the abrogated verses replace the other ones…that is, allah changed his previous word and the abrogated verses no longer work…if both are on the tablet, it means that allah gave contradictory teachings within only 23 years in the same book.

the Old law is called old for a reason…new covenant vs old covenant…no abrogation…the NT reveals the final truth , that is to understand the Bible you must read it’s end which shows the whole truth…the OT is the process, the NT is the end that reveals the truth.

This is what we call abrogation my friend, the meaning is the same. no you did not understand…Jesus came to give the truth of what was not from God. That is, it is not God who changed His teachings…it is Jesus who differentiated between what is the original wish of God and what is man-made so no there are no abrogated teachings that contradict themselves from God.

i was refering to quran…as to other book, is it a tablet or some mystic stuff?

The Quran is for humans. The other book is called a book or a tablet, however it is not a four dimensional tablet. so it is called a tablet but in fact is a metaphorical one?

Is it eternal or what?

and what about the things that are written in quran that were the result of war events and stuff? were they alse preserved? and mohammad quoted by Allah…preserved as well?

right, so why does the quran say : a quran i clear arabic to be understood by all?

Where does it say that? Please when you say the Quran says something, list the verse. ‘This (tongue) is Arabic, pure and clear’

'We have made it a Qur’an in Arabic that ye may be able
to understand.

great are you willing to discuss this with me?

muhammadanism.com/haddad…c_mission_1.pdf

muhammadanism.com/haddad…c_mission_2.pdf

No I am not, for numerous reasons, first is the title, there is no such thing as Muhammadanism and anyone who still thinks that there is isn’t worth talking to. Second I have a life, I go to school full time and have a part time job and I have enough threads on this forum to debate things on. I am looking for serious learners, not bashers. in fact, it is a book IN a site…am not asking you to read the site but the online book…and no it’s not bashing…it’s very respectful and historical…if thats the problem, then don’t worry…if the problem is time, then take your time…what do you think?

 

[Emad]

sorry bro, this is plainly wrong…arabs themselves had difficulties

Proove it. That was known as the Golden Age of the Arabic language.

1- فتل الرجل
2- و عبد الطغت

i deleted vowels and marks from both sentences…would you tell me what they are?

The first one is unclear, but it seems that it looks like a “fa” but I believe it is a qaf. Anyhow the first one says Qatala arRajul and the Second one says Wa Abada atTaghut. Also if you are asking me to put in the vowels, they can be numerous. In arabic one knows the vowels from the context, not just from the word. If you don’t know arabic there is no point in talking to you about this, as you won’t know if what I say is right or wrong.

no, mohammad allowed 7 variants but there are dozens…in other words, some sentences could be read in dozens of ways as muslim scholars agree.

Muhammad peace be upon him allowed 7 Ahruf, and there are about a dozen Qirait. They are different. You are confusing the two, thus forther proof you have no idea what you are talking about.

what i meant is this : the abrogated verses replace the other ones…that is, allah changed his previous word and the abrogated verses no longer work…if both are on the tablet, it means that allah gave contradictory teachings within only 23 years in the same book.

They are not contradictory teachings. All abrogated verses are related to law. For example when the Quran was being revealed people at that time used to drink alcohol like you might drink water. Thus the Quran prohibited alcohol gradually, first saying it is not good, then saying don’t approacht he prayer while you are drunk, then finally making it prohibited. The verses related to alcohol before the prohibition no longer apply.

no you did not understand…Jesus came to give the truth of what was not from God. That is, it is not God who changed His teachings…it is Jesus who differentiated between what is the original wish of God and what is man-made so no there are no abrogated teachings that contradict themselves from God.

I thought you believed Jesus was God? Now they are two different beings? Also so you are saying all the laws in the OT are not from God?

so it is called a tablet but in fact is a metaphorical one?

No it’s not metaphorical. It’s a tablet, but not like the tablets of this world. Surely you have a leg, but tables also have legs, so do dogs, birds etc. Each is called a leg, but they are different.

Is it eternal or what?

No it’s one of Allah’s creation.

and what about the things that are written in quran that were the result of war events and stuff? were they alse preserved? and mohammad quoted by Allah…preserved as well?

Yes they are all part of the Quran and preserved. The Quran existed before anything happened.

‘This (tongue) is Arabic, pure and clear’

'We have made it a Qur’an in Arabic that ye may be able
to understand.

List verse numbers please. However what you listed still doesn’t say everyone will understand it. List a verse that says everyone will understand it.

in fact, it is a book IN a site…am not asking you to read the site but the online book…and no it’s not bashing…it’s very respectful and historical…if thats the problem, then don’t worry…if the problem is time, then take your time…what do you think?

Your asking me to read and refute a book from a website? Why can’t you think of things for yourself? I will do that under one condition. That I get to list claims from antiChristian sites for you to refute in your own words.

 

[inJESUS]

sorry bro, this is plainly wrong…arabs themselves had difficulties

Proove it. That was known as the Golden Age of the Arabic language. no i’m not questioning their knowlege of arabic…am saying they had problems understanding with absolutely no vowels and marks.

1- فتل الرجل
2- و عبد الطغت

i deleted vowels and marks from both sentences…would you tell me what they are?

The first one is unclear, but it seems that it looks like a “fa” but I believe it is a qaf…

you said the first one is : qatala arrajulu

why not : qaatala arrajulu?
or : qutila arrajulu?
or :qatla arrajuli?

you said the second one is : wa abada attagut

why not : wa ubida attaghuta?
or : wa abadu attaghuta?
or: wa abdu attaghuti?
or wa abadaa attaguta?

yes,you can speculate but you can not be sure in all cases…i gave you 4 words, the quran is made of millions with very long sentences not to forget the letters that need 2 dots under or above to differentiate between for example “t” and “y” and N" or “Q” and “f” ecc…so to say this is exactly what is preserved in the tablet is pure arrogance.

Muhammad peace be upon him allowed 7 Ahruf, and there are about a dozen Qirait…

7 ahruf?
can you give your reference? i have hadith:

"Ubayy entered the mosque and, hearing a man recite, asked him who had instructed him. The man replied that he had been taught by the Prophet. Ubayy went in search of the Prophet. When the man recited. Muhammad said, ‘That is correct.’ Ubayy protested, ‘But you taught me to recite so-and-so,’ The Prophet said that Ubayy was right too. ‘Right? right?’ burst out Ubayy in perplexity. The Prophet struck him on the chest and prayed, ‘O God! cause doubt to depart.’ Ubayy broke into a sweat as his heart filled with terror. Muhammad disclosed that two angels had come to him. One said, ‘Recite the Quran in one form.’ The other advised Muhammad to ask for more than this. That was repeated several times until finally the first angel said. ‘Very well. Recite it in seven forms.’ The Prophet said, ‘Each of the forms is grace-giving, protecting, so long as you don’t terminate a punishment verse with an expression of mercy, or vice-versa - as you might for example say, Let’s go; or, let’s be off.’ " (Tafsir of Tabari.).

what i meant is this : the abrogated verses replace the other ones…that is, allah changed his previous word and the abrogated verses no longer work…if both are on the tablet, it means that allah gave contradictory teachings within only 23 years in the same book.

They are not contradictory teachings. All abrogated verses are related to law. For example when the Quran was being revealed people at that time used to drink alcohol like you might drink water. Thus the Quran prohibited alcohol gradually, first saying it is not good, then saying don’t approacht he prayer while you are drunk, then finally making it prohibited. The verses related to alcohol before the prohibition no longer apply. i thought killing verrsus peaceful verses were kinda nasikh/mansukh as well but i remember reading that this confuses muslims themselves cuz the quran is not written chronologically…anyway we’ll talk later about this…but you have absolutely no problem that God changed his mind so much times within 23 years?

 

[inJESUS]

cont and end

I thought you believed Jesus was God? Now they are two different beings? Also so you are saying all the laws in the OT are not from God?

yes Jesus is God incarnate…

take the example of Jesus saying : you were told this but i tell you this…Jesus is giving the truth and original commandmant…thats a long and interesting topic but to make it easy for you, the complete truth is Jesus…the end (NT) of the Bible revealed the truth.

so it is called a tablet but in fact is a metaphorical one?

No it’s not metaphorical. It’s a tablet, but not like the tablets of this world. Surely you have a leg, but tables also have legs, so do dogs, birds etc. Each is called a leg, but they are different.

i got it…so it’s somethingwe cannot understand or perceive in our mind. Can you just give references please?

Is it eternal or what?

No it’s one of Allah’s creation.

so Allah created/planned everything beforehand. What is the need of such tablet?

and what about the things that are written in quran that were the result of war events and stuff? were they alse preserved? and mohammad quoted by Allah…preserved as well?

Yes they are all part of the Quran and preserved. The Quran existed before anything happened.

i see…so when Allah created the universe, the quran was created as well with all the events to come, with the dozens of nasikh/mansukh ecc…
i see a 200% predestination.
By the way, have you read sahih hadith about lost souras?

‘This (tongue) is Arabic, pure and clear’

'We have made it a Qur’an in Arabic that ye may be able
to understand.

List verse numbers please. However what you listed still doesn’t say everyone will understand it. List a verse that says everyone will understand it.

i’ll list the verse later…as to everyone, i took it from muslim sites.

Your asking me to read and refute a book from a website? Why can’t you think of things for yourself? I will do that under one condition. That I get to list claims from antiChristian sites for you to refute in your own words.

no i don’t want you to refute a book…am happy you know arabic and am looking for a discussion …it’d be silly to ask you to refute a book with such historical info…i just want you to read it, i will reread it with you and i want your opinion

 

[Emad]

yes Jesus is God incarnate…

take the example of Jesus saying : you were told this but i tell you this…Jesus is giving the truth and original commandmant…thats a long and interesting topic but to make it easy for you, the complete truth is Jesus…the end (NT) of the Bible revealed the truth.

So the OT isn’t the complete truth as well? Which part of it is false?

i got it…so it’s somethingwe cannot understand or perceive in our mind. Can you just give references please?

In Islam anything that is unseen can’t be pictured, for example I can’t imagine what angels really look like, I may think they look one way, but since I never saw them I can’t be sure. The same applies with everything else in the unseen.

so Allah created/planned everything beforehand. What is the need of such tablet?

No He didn’t plan everything, He knew they would happen and had them written on the tablet. It doesn’t mean He is forcing things to happen.

i see…so when Allah created the universe, the quran was created as well with all the events to come, with the dozens of nasikh/mansukh ecc…
i see a 200% predestination.
By the way, have you read sahih hadith about lost souras?

The Quran is not a creation. Allah knew certain events would happen, thus He wrote them down, it doesn’t mean He forced them to happen. For example a teacher has a very good student who she knows will get an A on a test, thus she can give him an A before he even takes the test. This is just an example, focus on the point made and not the example itself.

No I never read any sahih hadith about lost souras. Perhaps you mean verses? Not surahs?

i’ll list the verse later…as to everyone, i took it from muslim sites.

I don’t think you will be able to, as there is NO verse that says everyone will understand the Quran.

no i don’t want you to refute a book…am happy you know arabic and am looking for a discussion …it’d be silly to ask you to refute a book with such historical info…i just want you to read it, i will reread it with you and i want your opinion

Im a full time college student, work part time and I have too many other things to read. Perhaps if it was in person I would discuss it with you while reading the book together. I just don’t have the time to read that book, have better books to read, and I don’t feel anything will be accomplished by me reading it. Plus it is called Muhammadinism, there is no such thing. Just the title is a turn off to anyone with a second grade level of Islamic knowledge.

 

[Emad]

no i’m not questioning their knowlege of arabic…am saying they had problems understanding with absolutely no vowels and marks.

That’s not true, prove it. Show me evidence that they did.

you said the first one is : *qatala arrajulu *

why not : qaatala arrajulu? (Isn’t this what I said it?)
or : qutila arrajulu?
or :qatla arrajuli?

It can be all of them, one knows the vowels through from the context. The Quran is in context.

you said the second one is : wa abada attagut

why not : wa ubida attaghuta?
or : wa abadu attaghuta?
or: wa abdu attaghuti?
or wa abadaa attaguta?

Now it is clear that you don’t know what your talking about. Where are you copying pasting from? I said it was Wa abada ataghut, you said why not wa abada attaguta, if you knew the slightest thing about arabic, you know the last vowel isn’t pronounced unless one continues the sentence.

yes,you can speculate but you can not be sure in all cases…i gave you 4 words, the quran is made of millions with very long sentences not to forget the letters that need 2 dots under or above to differentiate between for example “t” and “y” and N" or “Q” and “f” ecc…so to say this is exactly what is preserved in the tablet is pure arrogance.

Actually accorfing to the context we KNOW what it is. Arabic is like that. Even a non-Muslim who knows arabic wouldn’t argue what you are saying. if I tell you “a bd” you won’t know if it is "a bid, bud, bed, bad. But if I tell you “the boy is very bd” you would know I meant bad and not bed, bid or bud.

"Ubayy entered the mosque and, hearing a man recite, asked him who had instructed him. The man replied that he had been taught by the Prophet. Ubayy went in search of the Prophet. When the man recited. Muhammad said, ‘That is correct.’ Ubayy protested, ‘But you taught me to recite so-and-so,’ The Prophet said that Ubayy was right too. ‘Right? right?’ burst out Ubayy in perplexity. The Prophet struck him on the chest and prayed, ‘O God! cause doubt to depart.’ Ubayy broke into a sweat as his heart filled with terror. Muhammad disclosed that two angels had come to him. One said, ‘Recite the Quran in one form.’ The other advised Muhammad to ask for more than this. That was repeated several times until finally the first angel said. ‘Very well. Recite it in seven forms.’ The Prophet said, ‘Each of the forms is grace-giving, protecting, so long as you don’t terminate a punishment verse with an expression of mercy, or vice-versa - as you might for example say, Let’s go; or, let’s be off.’ " (Tafsir of Tabari.).

I know this hadith, where did you copy paste it from? Tafsir Tabari is only in Arabic and isn’t a hadith source. So I would appreciate if you tell me where you copied pasted it from or tell me the real source of the hadith.

i thought killing verrsus peaceful verses were kinda nasikh/mansukh as well but i remember reading that this confuses muslims themselves cuz the quran is not written chronologically…anyway we’ll talk later about this…but you have absolutely no problem that God changed his mind so much times within 23 years?

No they weren’t. And God didn’t change His mind, it was Him prohibiting things gradually. It also wasn’t so many times, there are about 4 abrogated verses in the entire Quran. Also I think you skipped my questions about the OT.



ps, do you know arabic?

 

[inJESUS]

So the OT isn’t the complete truth as well? Which part of it is false?

we don’t read the Bible as “parts”…the Bible is like a novel…you understand the truth at the end. The OT was the process, the NT is the fulfillment…the Bible is not written by God thats why not everything you read in it is from God directly but shows the interaction between God and His people, how they responded and how they failed and how they tried ecc …for example, Moses allowing divorce is not from God…Moses had to deal with their “harsh hearts” as Jesus said but “it was not originally this”…to make things easier, what God wants is fulfilled with Jesus.

i got it…so it’s somethingwe cannot understand or perceive in our mind. Can you just give references please?

In Islam anything that is unseen can’t be pictured, for example I can’t imagine what angels really look like, I may think they look one way, but since I never saw them I can’t be sure. The same applies with everything else in the unseen. no i need reference to what you are saying…like hadith that deal with this tablet topic…

so Allah created/planned everything beforehand. What is the need of such tablet?

No He didn’t plan everything, He knew they would happen and had them written on the tablet. It doesn’t mean He is forcing things to happen. so he knew before hand everything and put them on the tablet…fine but what is this tablet for?

The Quran is not a creation.

what is the Quran?

Allah knew certain events would happen, thus He wrote them down, it doesn’t mean He forced them to happen. For example a teacher has a very good student who she knows will get an A on a test, thus she can give him an A before he even takes the test. This is just an example, focus on the point made and not the example itself.

yes i understand that knowing something does not mean to make it…but i see inconsistency regarding abrogation…like Jerusalem first for a short time then Kaaba for ever…i can’t reconcile this idea with an all-knowing God…if allah wanted Kaaba, why start with Jerusalem knowing he will change his mind later? all these abrogations are the outcome of immediate events…it is as if Allah changed his mind everytime the situation called for a change…

No I never read any sahih hadith about lost souras. Perhaps you mean verses? Not surahs?

oops sorry yes, lost verses.

i’ll list the verse later…as to everyone, i took it from muslim sites.

I don’t think you will be able to, as there is NO verse that says everyone will understand the Quran. i said i took it from interpretations…the quran is clear that arabic is a means so that people understand…who are the people?

Im a full time college student, work part time and I have too many other things to read. Perhaps if it was in person I would discuss it with you while reading the book together. I just don’t have the time to read that book, have better books to read, and I don’t feel anything will be accomplished by me reading it. Plus it is called Muhammadinism, there is no such thing. Just the title is a turn off to anyone with a second grade level of Islamic knowledge

i told you the book is NOT called muhammadenism…and i see you are not willing to read a very important book…that speaks a lot…

 

[inJESUS]

no i’m not questioning their knowlege of arabic…am saying they had problems understanding with absolutely no vowels and marks.

That’s not true, prove it. Show me evidence that they did. i just need to find the articles related to this topic…i’ll put it as soon as find them.

you said the first one is : *qatala arrajulu *

why not : qaatala arrajulu? (Isn’t this what I said it?)
or : qutila arrajulu?
or :qatla arrajuli?

It can be all of them, one knows the vowels through from the context. The Quran is in context. fine, but can you claim that 2 different vowels/marks cannot be correct at the same time? remember, we are talking about long sentences…am not talking about meaning mind you, just about grammar.

you said the second one is : wa abada attagut

why not : wa ubida attaghuta?
or : wa abadu attaghuta?
or: wa abdu attaghuti?
or wa abadaa attaguta?

Now it is clear that you don’t know what your talking about. Where are you copying pasting from? I said it was Wa abada ataghut, you said why not wa abada attaguta, if you knew the slightest thing about arabic, you know the last vowel isn’t pronounced unless one continues the sentence. abadAA= 2 people: muthanna)

Actually accorfing to the context we KNOW what it is. Arabic is like that. Even a non-Muslim who knows arabic wouldn’t argue what you are saying. if I tell you “a bd” you won’t know if it is "a bid, bud, bed, bad. But if I tell you “the boy is very bd” you would know I meant bad and not bed, bid or bud.

correct…but you are giving a very easy sentence…we are talking here about a book…

I know this hadith, where did you copy paste it from? Tafsir Tabari is only in Arabic and isn’t a hadith source. So I would appreciate if you tell me where you copied pasted it from or tell me the real source of the hadith.

wow i donno…i’ll have to look for it again…

i thought killing verrsus peaceful verses were kinda nasikh/mansukh as well but i remember reading that this confuses muslims themselves cuz the quran is not written chronologically…anyway we’ll talk later about this…but you have absolutely no problem that God changed his mind so much times within 23 years?

No they weren’t. And God didn’t change His mind, it was Him prohibiting things gradually. It also wasn’t so many times, there are about 4 abrogated verses in the entire Quran. Also I think you skipped my questions about the OT.

well i read there are:

43 suras with neither nasikh or mansukh.

6 suras with nasikh but no mansukh.

40 suras with mansukh but no nasikh.

25 suras with both nasikh and mansukh.

No i didn’t forget about OT…i answered it.

ps, do you know arabic?

yep otherwise why would i discuss with you the arabic book in the link?

 

[Emad]

we don’t read the Bible as “parts”…the Bible is like a novel…you understand the truth at the end. The OT was the process, the NT is the fulfillment…the Bible is not written by God thats why not everything you read in it is from God directly but shows the interaction between God and His people, how they responded and how they failed and how they tried ecc …for example, Moses allowing divorce is not from God…Moses had to deal with their “harsh hearts” as Jesus said but “it was not originally this”…to make things easier, what God wants is fulfilled with Jesus.

I am speaking about the OT, so your saying it was man made and had nothing to do with God? Atleast part of it?

so he knew before hand everything and put them on the tablet…fine but what is this tablet for?

The tablet is one of Allah’s creation, I don’t know exactly what it is for, however I am assuming it is to show His greatness and knowledge of everything.

what is the Quran?

It is the speech of Allah.

yes i understand that knowing something does not mean to make it…but i see inconsistency regarding abrogation…like Jerusalem first for a short time then Kaaba for ever…i can’t reconcile this idea with an all-knowing God…if allah wanted Kaaba, why start with Jerusalem knowing he will change his mind later? all these abrogations are the outcome of immediate events…it is as if Allah changed his mind everytime the situation called for a change…

All of the Prophets of the Children of Israel were in the Jerusalem area, the Children of Israel killed and disbelieved in most of their Prophets. Thus God was telling them that I am now taking this responsibility and honor away from you and giving it to a new people, the Prophet peace be upon him and his companions in Mecca, who weren’t from the Children of Israel.

i said i took it from interpretations…the quran is clear that arabic is a means so that people understand…who are the people?

If you took it from interpretations, list the interpretations you took it from.

i just need to find the articles related to this topic…i’ll put it as soon as find them.

Articles aren’t evidence, I am talking about historical documents, primary documents.

fine, but can you claim that 2 different vowels/marks cannot be correct at the same time? remember, we are talking about long sentences…am not talking about meaning mind you, just about grammar.

I never said that. Two vowels can be correct in some cases, however in a sentence you will know which vowels can and can’t be correct.

abadAA= 2 people: muthanna)

PLEASE, stop. You have no idea what you are talking about. Abadaa is not two people, Abadaa is the act of worship itself. Ibad is the muthana.

correct…but you are giving a very easy sentence…we are talking here about a book…

Yes a book would be even easier, if you know arabic you should know this. All arabic books and newspapers don’t have any vowels at all, but arabs know which vowels are to be where.

well i read there are:

Where?

43 suras with neither nasikh or mansukh.

6 suras with nasikh but no mansukh.

40 suras with mansukh but no nasikh.

25 suras with both nasikh and mansukh.

I don’t know what your talking about, list evidence please.

continue…

 

[Emad]

No i didn’t forget about OT…i answered it.

32-37

And the LORD said unto me, Behold, I have begun to give Sihon and his land before thee: begin to possess, that thou mayest inherit his land. 32 Then Sihon came out against us, he and all his people, to fight at Jahaz. 33 And the LORD our God delivered him before us; and we smote him, and his sons, and all his people. 34 And we took all his cities at that time, and utterly destroyed the men, and the women, and the little ones, of every city, we left none to remain. 36 From Aroer, which is by the brink of the river of Arnon, and from the city that is by the river, even unto Gilead, there was not one city too strong for us: the LORD our God delivered all unto us

Deuteronomy
Chapter 3

1-7

1 Then we turned, and went up the way to Bashan: and Og the king of Bashan came out against us, he and all his people, to battle at Edrei. 2 And the LORD said unto me, Fear him not: for I will deliver him, and all his people, and his land, into thy hand; and thou shalt do unto him as thou didst unto Sihon king of the Amorites, which dwelt at Heshbon. 3 So the LORD our God delivered into our hands Og also, the king of Bashan, and all his people: and we smote him until none was left to him remaining. 4 And we took all his cities at that time, there was not a city which we took not from them, threescore cities, all the region of Argob, the kingdom of Og in Bashan. 5 All these cities were fenced with high walls, gates, and bars; beside unwalled towns a great many. 6 And we utterly destroyed them, as we did unto Sihon king of Heshbon, utterly destroying the men, women, and children, of every city. 7 But all the cattle, and the spoil of the cities, we took for a prey to ourselves

Are these verses not from God?

yep otherwise why would i discuss with you the arabic book in the link?

Ok, since you claim to know Arabic I am sure you won’t mind if I test you.

What does this mean and whats the difference between the two:

*Wa kalama Allahu Musa Taklima

Wa Kalama Allaha Musa Taklima*

Also translate this:

Anta Talibun mujtahidun wa ba’d al-madrisati anta ta’maulu fe al-suk ma walidak.

 

[inJESUS]

about variations , this link gives a clue:

submission.org/quran/warsh.html

and here is a sahih hadith:

Sahih Hadith of Bukhari.

Volume 6, Book 61, Number 513: Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Abbas:
Allah’s Apostle said, “Gabriel recited the Qur’an to me in one way. Then I requested him (to read it in another way), and continued asking him to recite it in other ways, and he recited it in several ways till he ultimately recited it** in seven different ways**.”

you can read different variants here is well:

answering-islam.de/Main/Green/seven.htm

regarding the difficulty of lack of vowels, read this:

answering-islam.org/Campbell/contents.html

 

[inJESUS]

No i didn’t forget about OT…i answered it.

32-37

And the LORD said unto me, Behold, I have begun to give Sihon and his land before thee: begin to possess, that thou mayest inherit his land. 32 Then Sihon came out against us, he and all his people, to fight at Jahaz. 33 And the LORD our God delivered him before us; and we smote him, and his sons, and all his people. 34 And we took all his cities at that time, and utterly destroyed the men, and the women, and the little ones, of every city, we left none to remain. 36 From Aroer, which is by the brink of the river of Arnon, and from the city that is by the river, even unto Gilead, there was not one city too strong for us: the LORD our God delivered all unto us

Deuteronomy
Chapter 3

1-7

1 Then we turned, and went up the way to Bashan: and Og the king of Bashan came out against us, he and all his people, to battle at Edrei. 2 And the LORD said unto me, Fear him not: for I will deliver him, and all his people, and his land, into thy hand; and thou shalt do unto him as thou didst unto Sihon king of the Amorites, which dwelt at Heshbon. 3 So the LORD our God delivered into our hands Og also, the king of Bashan, and all his people: and we smote him until none was left to him remaining. 4 And we took all his cities at that time, there was not a city which we took not from them, threescore cities, all the region of Argob, the kingdom of Og in Bashan. 5 All these cities were fenced with high walls, gates, and bars; beside unwalled towns a great many. 6 And we utterly destroyed them, as we did unto Sihon king of Heshbon, utterly destroying the men, women, and children, of every city. 7 But all the cattle, and the spoil of the cities, we took for a prey to ourselves

Are these verses not from God? i told you we do not deal with the Bible as “parts”…why are you quoting parts?

yep otherwise why would i discuss with you the arabic book in the link?

Ok, since you claim to know Arabic I am sure you won’t mind if I test you. do you think i was able to ask you the previous questions if i didnt know arabic?

What does this mean and whats the difference between the two:

*Wa kalama Allahu Musa Taklima

Wa Kalama Allaha Musa Taklima*

the second one is wrong cuz it must be allahu not allaha ( fael marfouu of verb to speak )

Also translate this:

Anta Talibun mujtahidun wa ba’d al-madrisati anta ta’maulu fe al-suk ma walidak

you are a good student and after school you work in the market with your father.

Satisfied?

 

[inJESUS]

inJESUS:

i told you we do not deal with the Bible as “parts”…why are you quoting parts?

do you think i was able to ask you the previous questions if i didnt know arabic?
the second one is wrong cuz it must be allahu not allaha ( fael marfouu of verb to speak from a grammatical point of view )

you are a good student and after school you work in the market with your father.

Satisfied?

 

[inJESUS]

sorry :

wa kallama allahu musa= God talked to Musa
wa kallama allaha musa : =musa talked to God.

 

[inJESUS]

I am speaking about the OT, so your saying it was man made and had nothing

to do with God? Atleast part of it? oh Lord…no i didn’t say that…i explained that the Bible is inspired by God but is not written by God…that is, not everything in it is said by God…it contains history as well for example and how people reacted in good or bad ways…the OT shows how the perception of God evolved and how it was fulfilled in Jesus.

so he knew before hand everything and put them on the tablet…fine but what is this tablet for?

The tablet is one of Allah’s creation, I don’t know exactly what it is for, however I am assuming it is to show His greatness and knowledge of everything. does he need a tablet to show his greatness? and who sees this tablet? no one…how can it show anything?

what is the Quran?

It is the speech of Allah. is your speech a different part than you? is Allah’s speach eternal?

All of the Prophets of the Children of Israel were in the Jerusalem area, the Children of Israel killed and disbelieved in most of their Prophets. Thus God was telling them that I am now taking this responsibility and honor away from you and giving it to a new people, the Prophet peace be upon him and his companions in Mecca, who weren’t from the Children of Israel.

so the verse about : he who kills 1 soul is as if he killed all : is this only to bani israel and not for muslims? and is Jerusalem related to people or to God? mohammad himself prayed toward Jerusalem first.

i just need to find the articles related to this topic…i’ll put it as soon as find them.

Articles aren’t evidence, I am talking about historical documents, primary documents. i put some articles and they quote scholars and hadith

fine, but can you claim that 2 different vowels/marks cannot be correct at the same time? remember, we are talking about long sentences…am not talking about meaning mind you, just about grammar.

I never said that. Two vowels can be correct in some cases, however in a sentence you will know which vowels can and can’t be correct. read the third link i gave before.

PLEASE, stop. You have no idea what you are talking about. Abadaa is not two people, Abadaa is the act of worship itself. Ibad is the muthana.

this is the fourth time you say this and i prove you wrong…هما عبدا الله = they worshipped God so it is abadaa not ibad. The act of worship is Ibada عبادة

Yes a book would be even easier, if you know arabic you should know this. All arabic books and newspapers don’t have any vowels at all, but arabs know which vowels are to be where.

you are talking about diactric marks…newspapers without vowels is a chaos.

well i read there are:

Where?

43 suras with neither nasikh or mansukh.

6 suras with nasikh but no mansukh.

40 suras with mansukh but no nasikh.

25 suras with both nasikh and mansukh.

I don’t know what your talking about, list evidence please.

youngmuslims.ca/online_library/books/ulum_al_quran/Ch5S3s7.htm

 

[Emad]

i told you we do not deal with the Bible as “parts”…why are you quoting parts?

Do I have to quote the whole Bible? I posted a couple verses and want to know if you believe God taught them at one time or another. Simple question.

this is the fourth time you say this and i prove you wrong…هما عبدا الله = they worshipped God so it is abadaa not ibad. The act of worship is Ibada عبادة

Sorry, it’s tough to read arabic in english.

read the third link i gave before.

You can’t be serious. AnsweringIslam?? Do you have to stoop that low? Couldn’t you find a better source? Also submission.org is not a Muslim website. If you want me to post things from answering Christianity I can do so too. However I think those websites twist things around so much. They are used by people who have no brains of their own and just want low blows.

so the verse about : he who kills 1 soul is as if he killed all : is this only to bani israel and not for muslims? and is Jerusalem related to people or to God? mohammad himself prayed toward Jerusalem first.

I don’t get the point you are making. If God commanded one thing for one nation, and tells another nation to do something different is that a contradiction?

is your speech a different part than you? is Allah’s speach eternal?

I know where this is going and it has been discussed on this site numerous times. I won’t go into it again. If you wish for an answer do a search and you will find it.

does he need a tablet to show his greatness? and who sees this tablet? no one…how can it show anything?

Surely today many boast about the great technology they have, right? That they can store so many things in a small chip. Isn’t that a sign of their “greatness”? I also never stated that that was the purpose of the tablet, it is an assumption on my part.

oh Lord…no i didn’t say that…i explained that the Bible is inspired by God but is not written by God…that is, not everything in it is said by God…it contains history as well for example and how people reacted in good or bad ways…the OT shows how the perception of God evolved and how it was fulfilled in Jesus.

Either way, its source if from God. So the perception of God is shown in the OT and then His perception was fulfilled in Him? That doesn’t make sense. Don’t you believe Jesus and God are the same being? Also what do you mean by the perception of God being fulfilled in Jesus?

 

[Emad]

Here are some examples of God changing His mind in the Bible:

answering-christianity.com/abrogation_in_bible.htm

 

[inJESUS]

Do I have to quote the whole Bible? I posted a couple verses and want to know if you believe God taught them at one time or another. Simple question.

exactly, you should quote nothing…you should read it as a whole but you will understand the truth at the end…if you tell me Moses allowed divorce, i will tell you he did this NOT because it is God’s wish but to cope with harsh people…so to understand about this point or any other point, refer to what Jesus said about it and how Jesus behaved regarding many “laws”.

read the third link i gave before.

You can’t be serious. AnsweringIslam?? Do you have to stoop that low? Couldn’t you find a better source? what do you mean? that nothing in the site is valid? did you even read it as i will read yours about answering-Christianity which i find hilarious?

Also submission.org is not a Muslim website. If you want me to post things from answering Christianity I can do so too. However I think those websites twist things around so much. They are used by people who have no brains of their own and just want low blows.

i thought submission is muslim…anyways the articles have references and hadith and muslim scholars…refusing them only because they are not islamic site is wrong.

so the verse about : he who kills 1 soul is as if he killed all : is this only to bani israel and not for muslims? and is Jerusalem related to people or to God? mohammad himself prayed toward Jerusalem first.

I don’t get the point you are making. muslims say the killing one soul is like killing all verse applies to muslims thou it is very clear allah was adressing bani israel…the verse allah quoted is in the Talmud.

If God commanded one thing for one nation, and tells another nation to do something different is that a contradiction?

if it has to do with morals? yes. If God calls it shameful but Allah says it’s good ?yes. But the point is that Allah did not ask Mohammad immediately to bow toward Kaaba but to Jerusalem so if Allah wanted to prove a point to jews he should have started directly with Kaaba…starting with Jerusalem means Allah had no problem but then he changed it . Changing many stuff during 23 years is very suspicious.

is your speech a different part than you? is Allah’s speach eternal?

I know where this is going and it has been discussed on this site numerous times. I won’t go into it again. If you wish for an answer do a search and you will find it.am just trying to follow your argument…what should i search? can you refer me to a thread? the question is simple though: is speech a part separate than you?

does he need a tablet to show his greatness? and who sees this tablet? no one…how can it show anything?

Surely today many boast about the great technology they have, right? That they can store so many things in a small chip. Isn’t that a sign of their “greatness”? I also never stated that that was the purpose of the tablet, it is an assumption on my part. thats why i asked for support to your claims which you gave none so far…yes people boast but why should God boast and to who?

oh Lord…no i didn’t say that…i explained that the Bible is inspired by God but is not written by God…that is, not everything in it is said by God…it contains history as well for example and how people reacted in good or bad ways…the OT shows how the perception of God evolved and how it was fulfilled in Jesus.

Either way, its source if from God. So the perception of God is shown in the OT and then His perception was fulfilled in Him? That doesn’t make sense. Don’t you believe Jesus and God are the same being? Also what do you mean by the perception of God being fulfilled in Jesus? yes its source is from God but unlike the quran, it is not word for word from God’s mouth…it contains lots of other things.
Yes the OT shows how people perceived God but who God is or His teachings are fulfilled in Jesus, that is, Jesus said who God is and what his “initial” teachings are. Jesus is not the Father is status cuz the Father did not become flesh…it is Jesus who took the human body. To summarize all this idea, who God is and what His initial teachings are are found in Jesus’ teachings and behavior…the OT is the introduction to people’ perception of God throughout history, the NT is the conclusion and the fullfilment of who God is…so to understand, we refer to the NT.

 

[Emad]

exactly, you should quote nothing…you should read it as a whole but you will understand the truth at the end…if you tell me Moses allowed divorce, i will tell you he did this NOT because it is God’s wish but to cope with harsh people…so to understand about this point or any other point, refer to what Jesus said about it and how Jesus behaved regarding many “laws”.

Allah also revealed laws that were meant to be temporary and others that were meant to be forever. How is that changing His mind?

what do you mean? that nothing in the site is valid? did you even read it as i will read yours about answering-Christianity which i find hilarious?

No I didn’t read it and don’t plan on it. It twists things around. Anyone can do that. Why not think of things for yourself instead of using anti-Islamic websites? I also only resorted to answeringChristianity to show you anyone can do what you are doing.

i thought submission is muslim…anyways the articles have references and hadith and muslim scholars…refusing them only because they are not islamic site is wrong.

They aren’t they believe that there is a Prophet after Muhammad peace be upon him. I also don’t think they use much hadith, as they deny hadith altogether which further takes them out of the fold of Islam.

muslims say the killing one soul is like killing all verse applies to muslims thou it is very clear allah was adressing bani israel…the verse allah quoted is in the Talmud.

Some verses in the Quran are general others are specific. You learn this in Usul al Fiqh.

if it has to do with morals? yes. If God calls it shameful but Allah says it’s good ?yes. But the point is that Allah did not ask Mohammad immediately to bow toward Kaaba but to Jerusalem so if Allah wanted to prove a point to jews he should have started directly with Kaaba…starting with Jerusalem means Allah had no problem but then he changed it . Changing many stuff during 23 years is very suspicious.

Actually in Mecca there weren’t any Jews. The Jews were in Medina, why would God prove the point to the Jews when they weren’t around? The Qibla was changed soon after the migration of the Prophet peace be upon him to Medina, for the Jews to witness.

yes its source is from God but unlike the quran, it is not word for word from God’s mouth…it contains lots of other things.
Yes the OT shows how people perceived God but who God is or His teachings are fulfilled in Jesus, that is, Jesus said who God is and what his “initial” teachings are. Jesus is not the Father is status cuz the Father did not become flesh…it is Jesus who took the human body. To summarize all this idea, who God is and what His initial teachings are are found in Jesus’ teachings and behavior…the OT is the introduction to people’ perception of God throughout history, the NT is the conclusion and the fullfilment of who God is…so to understand, we refer to the NT.



Let’s narrow this down. What is your point? Is there something you are trying to prove?

 

[inJESUS]

i read the link you gave…the problem is linguistic…saying that God grieived or repented is the way people expressed their ideas about God in their language…just like saying God’s eyes for example: God doesn’t necessarily have eyes, but this expression reveals a meaning…so we look for the meaning the author is trying to give,

regarding salvation, it’s ridiculous cuz it is completely out of context…he is mixing NT and OT.

the rest simply conveys an islamic mindset…he thinks that everything in the Bible comes from God…in addition to comparing the OT with the NT without understand the link between the 2…in other words, picking out of context passages and mixing all together…then there is the mistake of thinking that if God punished a sin in one place but didn’t in another place, then it is abrogation: this is simply faulty reasoning.

are non-jews dogs in Jesus’ message and Jesus rejected the woman?? oh Lord.

you can read this short articleto get a larger picture.