Race, God, and the LDS Church

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Okay, the last thread on this was very amped up and uncharitable on both sides. I’ll try and give this one a shot again, but I’ll try to be both clear and more charitable about it. I ofer, right now, my sincerest apologies to any LDS I have offended because they thought I was implying that their Church is racist (which I’m not implying).

However, here is the real point I, at least, was trying to make (I speak for nobody else).

SirThomasMore provided Mormon Prophets making claims that the Mormon God taught racism. The Prophets said, several times, that racism was one of God’s teachings.

Later, other Prophets came and said that this claim, that God taught racism, was wrong. But why should we believe the later Prophets over the earlier Prophets? How do we know the later Prophets were right? Did God change his mind? Of course not, that would be ridiculous. So why are we believing one Prophet over another?

I only find it suspect that a teaching of GOD could be found to be wrong. The only conclusion I could draw is that it was not a teaching of God.

Responses?
 
Okay, the last thread on this was very amped up and uncharitable on both sides. I’ll try and give this one a shot again, but I’ll try to be both clear and more charitable about it. I ofer, right now, my sincerest apologies to any LDS I have offended because they thought I was implying that their Church is racist (which I’m not implying).

However, here is the real point I, at least, was trying to make (I speak for nobody else).

SirThomasMore provided Mormon Prophets making claims that the Mormon God taught racism. The Prophets said, several times, that racism was one of God’s teachings.

Later, other Prophets came and said that this claim, that God taught racism, was wrong. But why should we believe the later Prophets over the earlier Prophets? How do we know the later Prophets were right? Did God change his mind? Of course not, that would be ridiculous. So why are we believing one Prophet over another?

I only find it suspect that a teaching of GOD could be found to be wrong. The only conclusion I could draw is that it was not a teaching of God.

Responses?
Marc Anthony,
If you don’t make a distinction between someone’s personal opinion (not, by the way, “Mormon Prophets” but an apostle and a seventy) and what the scriptures say on a subject, then all you will have is a personal opinion that has led you to a conclusion that is erroneous, but has nothing to do with “Mormon Prophets”.

I would think that someone such as yourself would be able to figure out that a person such as Dianaiad, who had a marriage where she faced the kind of question (in her mind, if she wanted to dwell on that subject) you have brought up, before and after her marriage–would have sufficient background on that subject to explain it accurately to a non-LDS who was curious. I think she has tried to do that in this forum on many occasions. You could try believing that she knows what she is writing about, having fair reason to become an expert about it.
 
I submit the answer is clear. It is preposterous to suggest that God would be racist. God made everyone, and everyone is dear to Him. God’s preference is clearly that everyone return to Him. But He leaves it up to us. No group is more dear to God than another and anyone who thinks that one group is favored is misguided. Hence, it is clear that God is not racist. God CANNOT be racist. The very idea that God could be racist is silly.

The Mormon faith, whether their adherents wish to recognize it or not, has racist beginnings. And these racist beliefs were initially attributed to God by their “prophets”. Subsequently, these same racist policies were reversed, in the face of the Mormon Church losing its tax exempt status. This occurred, it should be noted, after it became US national policy for churches to be forbidden from political speech. It is an open question as to whether this reversal would have occurred absent the actions of the US Congress.

The problem here is one of Mormon prophecy and prophets and how much faith can be put in what Mormon prophets say. If the original prophets were true, then later prophets were false, and vice versa. But no matter which one might choose, this issue puts the Mormon church on display for all to see that, according to them, God once was racist and now He’s not. That’s simply not credible. It is not surprising that this issue is one that Mormons wish to distance themselves from.

God is not, and cannot be racist. The very idea that God could have directed anyone to be racist, in whatever form, is repugnant.
 
Marc Anthony,
If you don’t make a distinction between someone’s personal opinion (not, by the way, “Mormon Prophets” but an apostle and a seventy) and what the scriptures say on a subject, then all you will have is a personal opinion that has led you to a conclusion that is erroneous, but has nothing to do with “Mormon Prophets”.

I would think that someone such as yourself would be able to figure out that a person such as Dianaiad, who had a marriage where she faced the kind of question (in her mind, if she wanted to dwell on that subject) you have brought up, before and after her marriage–would have sufficient background on that subject to explain it accurately to a non-LDS who was curious. I think she has tried to do that in this forum on many occasions. You could try believing that she knows what she is writing about, having fair reason to become an expert about it.
But the BoM isn’t opinion is it?

We have this from 2 Nephi:

“And he had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, that they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them.”

“And thus saith the Lord God: I will cause that they shall be loathsome unto thy people, save they shall repent of their iniquities.”

“And cursed shall be the seed of him that mixeth with their seed; for they shall be cursed even with the same cursing. And the Lord spake it, and it was done.”

“And because of their cursing which was upon them they did become an idle people, full of mischief and subtlety, and did seek in the wilderness for beasts of prey.”

Considering the fact that lds consider the BoM scripture, it isn’t really opinion now is it?
 
Marc Anthony,
If you don’t make a distinction between someone’s personal opinion (not, by the way, “Mormon Prophets” but an apostle and a seventy) and what the scriptures say on a subject, then all you will have is a personal opinion that has led you to a conclusion that is erroneous, but has nothing to do with “Mormon Prophets”.
that is simply not true and I will make sure you do not get to use that apologetic. It gets very tiring that every time one your prophets or apostles says something in a sermon, writing, or speech that the world finds repugnant, you quickly circle the wagons around the idea it was just opinion.

Nope. It was doctrine. (Edited)
 
Marc Anthony,
If you don’t make a distinction between someone’s personal opinion (not, by the way, “Mormon Prophets” but an apostle and a seventy) and what the scriptures say on a subject, then all you will have is a personal opinion that has led you to a conclusion that is erroneous, but has nothing to do with “Mormon Prophets”.

I would think that someone such as yourself would be able to figure out that a person such as Dianaiad, who had a marriage where she faced the kind of question (in her mind, if she wanted to dwell on that subject) you have brought up, before and after her marriage–would have sufficient background on that subject to explain it accurately to a non-LDS who was curious. I think she has tried to do that in this forum on many occasions. You could try believing that she knows what she is writing about, having fair reason to become an expert about it.
There were several quotes that SirThomasMore posted and several of them were from Prophets. This was an official teaching of the LDS Church.
 
It took till 1978 for them to give African Americans the priesthood? 1978? End of the 70’s? Wow.
 
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ParkerD:
If you don’t make a distinction between someone’s personal opinion (not, by the way, “Mormon Prophets” but an apostle and a seventy)…
All of the LDS apostles are sustained at every General Conference as “prophets, seers and revelators”.

Joseph Smith himself began applying this three-fold title to all of the living apostles. At the dedication of the Kirtland Temple in 1836, Joseph Smith invited the members of the Church to acknowledge the Twelve Apostles as “prophets, seers, and revelators” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 109).
 
All of the LDS apostles are sustained at every General Conference as “prophets, seers and revelators”.

Joseph Smith himself began applying this three-fold title to all of the living apostles. At the dedication of the Kirtland Temple in 1836, Joseph Smith invited the members of the Church to acknowledge the Twelve Apostles as “prophets, seers, and revelators” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 109).
Also Lieutenant-General and ordained King of the Kingdom of God by the Council of Fifty.

William Marks: *“I was also witness to the introduction (secretly) of a kingly form of government, in which Joseph suffered himself to be ordained king to reign over the house of Israel forever.” *
 
It took till 1978 for them to give African Americans the priesthood? 1978? End of the 70’s? Wow.
This is the point I’m NOT making here though. It’s basically irrelevant. What’s relevant is that the LDS were claiming that God taught racism and then backed off on those claims when it became politically incorrect, and then tried to act (and are still trying to act) like there was no contradiction there.
 
All Catholics and anyone else in the world who is aware of modern day science knows for a fact that Native Americans aren’t “red” because of “punishment from God” However, it would be politically incorrect to discredit everything LDS stands for by the grounds of intrinsic racism, even if they didn’t ordain black priests until the 70’s or something (with the exception of maybe a few).

Fact of the matter is, and I’m just gonna say it, call me racist or not, black people aren’t really into any of the stuff that Mormonism stands for. Becoming a God when you die? Many black people are Christians because of ancestral connections to slaves who perhaps drew parallels between themselves and the Hebrews of the Old Testament and saw God as their deliverer from slavery.

And finally, if I could pick one demographic that would be LEAST likely to dress up like the guys in this picture and go from door to door and try to convert people, it’d be black people.

Btw, God never taught racism. If anything, he sought out certain groups not because of their outward appearance, but because of their actions, which is the true way to discern anyone’s characters. Fact is, most of those wierdo’s the Israelites were fighting did things like roll their children into the fire and pedestry. They needed to go:thumbsup:

-Snakemauler
 
All Catholics and anyone else in the world who is aware of modern day science knows for a fact that Native Americans aren’t “red” because of “punishment from God” However, it would be politically incorrect to discredit everything LDS stands for by the grounds of intrinsic racism, even if they didn’t ordain black priests until the 70’s or something (with the exception of maybe a few).
I 100% agree, which is why that’s NOT what I’m doing. My problem more has to do with the fact that racism was an official teaching of the LDS Church, that their Prophets repeatedly claimed was told to them by God, and then as soon as it became politically incorrect the LDS Church had another “Prophet” claim that God didn’t really teach that. So at one point racism was given to the LDS by God and at another point it wasn’t? Which Prophet is right?
 
.

And finally, if I could pick one demographic that would be LEAST likely to dress up like the guys in this picture and go from door to door and try to convert people, it’d be black people.

-Snakemauler
Oh I don’t know about that point, blacks are over represented among the Jehovah Witnesses, what would be the biggest difference a long sleeve shirt with a tie or going all out with a sports coat?
 
I 100% agree, which is why that’s NOT what I’m doing. My problem more has to do with the fact that racism was an official teaching of the LDS Church, that their Prophets repeatedly claimed was told to them by God, and then as soon as it became politically incorrect the LDS Church had another “Prophet” claim that God didn’t really teach that. So at one point racism was given to the LDS by God and at another point it wasn’t? Which Prophet is right?
We also have a statement of the First Presidency, which I posted in the other thread, that states that the priesthood ban is (at the time) a “commandment of the Lord”.
 
We also have a statement of the First Presidency, which I posted in the other thread, that states that the priesthood ban is (at the time) a “commandment of the Lord”.
CatholicGuyNY,
Here is the statement from the early 1950’s you posted:
First Presidency of the LDS Church
"The attitude of the Church with reference to Negroes remains as it has always stood. It is not a matter of the declaration of a policy but of direct commandment from the Lord, on which is founded the doctrine of the Church from the days of its organization, to the effect that Negroes may become members of the Church but that they are not entitled to the priesthood at the present time. The prophets of the Lord have made several statements as to the operation of the principle. President Brigham Young said: “Why are so many of the inhabitants of the earth cursed with a skin of blackness? It comes in consequence of their fathers rejecting the power of the holy priesthood, and the law of God. They will go down to death. And when all the rest of the children have received their blessings in the holy priesthood, then that curse will be removed from the seed of Cain, and they will then come up and possess the priesthood, and receive all the blessings which we now are entitled to.”
President Wilford Woodruff made the following statement: “The day will come when all that race will be redeemed and possess all the blessings which we now have.”
The position of the Church regarding the Negro may be understood when another doctrine of the Church is kept in mind, namely, that the conduct of spirits in the premortal existence has some determining effect upon the conditions and circumstances under which these spirits take on mortality and that while the details of this principle have not been made known, the mortality is a privilege that is given to those who maintain their first estate; and that the worth of the privilege is so great that spirits are willing to come to earth and take on bodies no matter what the handicap may be as to the kind of bodies they are to secure; and that among the handicaps, failure of the right to enjoy in mortality the blessings of the priesthood is a handicap which spirits are willing to assume in order that they might come to earth. Under this principle there is no injustice whatsoever involved in this deprivation as to the holding of the priesthood by the Negroes."
Here follows, then, the basis of the words used to describe the “priesthood ban” as a “commandment”:

Abraham 1:25 Now the first government of Egypt was established by Pharaoh, the eldest son of Egyptus, the daughter of Ham, and it was after the manner of the government of Ham, which was patriarchal.
26 Pharaoh, being a righteous man, established his kingdom and judged his people wisely and justly all his days, seeking earnestly to imitate that order established by the fathers in the first generations, in the days of the first patriarchal reign, even in the reign of Adam, and also of Noah, his father, who blessed him with the blessings of the earth, and with the blessings of wisdom, but cursed him as pertaining to the Priesthood.
27 Now, Pharaoh being of that lineage by which he could not have the right of Priesthood …

A principle at work with respect to the “right of Priesthood” is that not only must it be used in righteousness or it’s power and authority is completely lost by the person who holds the priesthood by ordination, but that it must be recognized to be in effect through revelation from God, and it was revealed to Noah and later to Abraham that the descendants of Ham were not allowed to be given the priesthood, yet they would be blessed with the “blessings of the earth, and with the blessings of wisdom”.

I have to wonder why those complaining about the operation of the principle of some holding the priesthood by revelation from God and others not holding the priesthood, don’t apply the same complaining with respect to the tribe of Levi among the tribes of Israel in that the tribe of Levi had a special authority given to them. It appears no one is complaining about that–yet it is a distinction due to lineage.

It appears to me that the underlying complaint is against God giving revelation as to who is authorized to hold His priesthood. One who has that underlying complaint, might as well take it up with God in prayer and ask Him about it.

Probably no one on earth is going to be able to satisfy the complaints of any person about who receives the priesthood and who doesn’t. The complaints will only be able to be satisfied if the person doing the complaining understands the principle of personal revelation and the principle of revelation guiding the authority of the priesthood on earth and its authorized use, and that person who was doing the complaining prays to God and receives their own personal answer from God through personal revelation whereby they finally become content about both the operation of the principle among the tribes of Israel, and the operation of the principle whenever the priesthood is given to men on the earth.

Receiving personal revelation would implicitly require that the person doing the asking be righteous and repentant, desiring to know through the sincerity of their heart and without a personal agenda, and having studied the matter out such as studying about the tribe of Levi holding a special priesthood authority among the tribes of Israel and why that took place.

So I’m basically saying that neither I nor anyone will ever be able to satisfy the never-ending complaints about God and His priesthood authority on the earth among those with such complaints in their hearts or on their lips. The only way they are going to be satisfied is to take the matter up with God and let Him teach them.
 
ParkerD,
Thank you for finnaly showing everyone that it is Mormon DOCTRINE (belief from god and scripture) that the priesthhod ban to African Americans (of specific descent) was from the Mormon god. It was not simply a policy as a few have tried to shout over and over, but a tenet of the LDS since its inception. We will gladly take it up with the Mormon god and not man then.
 
ParkerD,
Thank you for finnaly showing everyone that it is Mormon DOCTRINE (belief from god and scripture) that the priesthhod ban to African Americans (of specific descent) was from the Mormon god. It was not simply a policy as a few have tried to shout over and over, but a tenet of the LDS since its inception. We will gladly take it up with the Mormon god and not man then.
Aquabatix,
You will need to take it up with the God of Noah and the God of Abraham and the God of Moses, so if that is what you plan to do, then that is all well and good.👍
 
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