Race, God, and the LDS Church

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That’s the old LDS “I’ll-just-pat-you-on-your-unenlightened-little-head-and-pity-you” tactic.

The “gods-in-embryo” are so superior to us mere mortals. :rolleyes:
 
twopekinguys said:
LOL, You’ve got alot of talk there that does not address what I posted.

Your own scriptures show racism do they not? They are not opinion, of one of your “prophets” like you were trying to claim, now are they?

Admit it, your own “prophets” were making racist remarks based on racist text in your own scriptures. So, you see, it wasn’t merely their opinions now were they?
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The KJV Bible has the following verses:

Genesis 4:6 And the Lord said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?
7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.
8 And Cain talked with Abel his brother: and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him.
9 ¶ And the Lord said unto Cain, Where is Abel thy brother? And he said, I know not: Am I my brother’s keeper?
10 And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother’s blood crieth unto me from the ground.
11 And now art thou cursed from the earth, which hath opened her mouth to receive thy brother’s blood from thy hand;
12 When thou tillest the ground, it shall not henceforth yield unto thee her strength; a fugitive and a vagabond shalt thou be in the earth.
13 And Cain said unto the Lord, My punishment is greater than I can bear.
14 Behold, thou hast driven me out this day from the face of the earth; and from thy face shall I be hid; and I shall be a fugitive and a vagabond in the earth; and it shall come to pass, that every one that findeth me shall slay me.
15 And the Lord said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the Lord set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him.

Genesis 9:19 These are the three sons of Noah: and of them was the whole earth overspread.
20 And Noah began to be an husbandman, and he planted a vineyard:
21 And he drank of the wine, and was drunken; and he was uncovered within his tent.
22 And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brethren without.
24 And Noah awoke from his wine, and knew what his younger son had done unto him.
25 And he said, Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren.
26 And he said, Blessed be the Lord God of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant.
27 God shall enlarge Japheth, and he shall dwell in the tents of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant.

Those verses are in the Bible. Blame them on God, or Moses, or Noah–not on the LDS church or its leaders.
 
twopekinguys said:
Translated loosely, all this says is, “OK, you’ve got me, I can’t explain or defend it, so I’m not going to address it anymore.”

You use this tactic as much as your I’m taking my marbles and going home tactic. 🤷
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I said I have already addressed it repeatedly. If you want to find the conversations, you can find them. It’s fairly easy to do that on this website, for one willing to spend the time and effort. I don’t like to plow old ground and rehash what has already been addressed. If I’ve posted once about a subject, then that’s enough for me unless someone has posted for the first time and shows some sincerity about a subject unfamiliar to them. You are very familiar with this subject. I don’t need to provide you more answers than you already had received several times past.

I also was saying someone who prays sincerely will get an answer to their prayers, period.
 
ParkerD said:
The KJV Bible has the following verses:

Genesis 4:6 And the Lord said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?
7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.
8 And Cain talked with Abel his brother: and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him.
9 ¶ And the Lord said unto Cain, Where is Abel thy brother? And he said, I know not: Am I my brother’s keeper?
10 And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother’s blood crieth unto me from the ground.
11 And now art thou cursed from the earth, which hath opened her mouth to receive thy brother’s blood from thy hand;
12 When thou tillest the ground, it shall not henceforth yield unto thee her strength; a fugitive and a vagabond shalt thou be in the earth.
13 And Cain said unto the Lord, My punishment is greater than I can bear.
14 Behold, thou hast driven me out this day from the face of the earth; and from thy face shall I be hid; and I shall be a fugitive and a vagabond in the earth; and it shall come to pass, that every one that findeth me shall slay me.
15 And the Lord said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the Lord set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him.

Genesis 9:19 These are the three sons of Noah: and of them was the whole earth overspread.
20 And Noah began to be an husbandman, and he planted a vineyard:
21 And he drank of the wine, and was drunken; and he was uncovered within his tent.
22 And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brethren without.
24 And Noah awoke from his wine, and knew what his younger son had done unto him.
25 And he said, Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren.
26 And he said, Blessed be the Lord God of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant.
27 God shall enlarge Japheth, and he shall dwell in the tents of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant.

Those verses are in the Bible. Blame them on God, or Moses, or Noah–not on the LDS church or its leaders.
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You know, the funny thing is, none of the verses you quoted say anything about dark skin? That is only found in mormon scriptures.

Why do you think that is?

Good try, but your Bible quotes just fall short, if you know what I mean.

Again, 2 Nephi is lds scripture right? So it isn’t a matter of your “prophets” speaking their opinion now is it? I noticed that you failed to address that issue. (again)
 
ParkerD said:
I said I have already addressed it repeatedly. If you want to find the conversations, you can find them. It’s fairly easy to do that on this website, for one willing to spend the time and effort. I don’t like to plow old ground and rehash what has already been addressed. **If I’ve posted once about a subject, then that’s enough for me **unless someone has posted for the first time and shows some sincerity about a subject unfamiliar to them. You are very familiar with this subject. I don’t need to provide you more answers than you already had received several times past.

I also was saying someone who prays sincerely will get an answer to their prayers, period.
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Ah, more contradictions. (bolded above) So, have you addressed it more than once?

It isn’t up to me, or anyone else to see what you’ve addressed. You posted on this thread, it is a current conversation. Now, if you want to bolster your position by providing your previous posts on the subject, that is up to you. It isn’t up to us to track them down for you.
 
Ahimsa said:
Not really. Someone can claim communication with God, but not during every second of every hour.
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Anyone who is contact with God, even once, would have a sense of what God is all about. Such a one would not ascribe to God attributes such as racial bigotry and misogyny.
 
Ahimsa said:
Not really. Someone can claim communication with God, but not during every second of every hour.
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So somebody who claims to be a Prophet, that has gone out and told people that God himself wanted us to be racist, might be wrong?

Then why do we trust anything the Prophets (which Apostles are supposed to be in Mormonism) say if we don’t know when they’re actually “speaking as Prophets”?

I would think that stating directly that something is a teaching of God constitutes a Prophetic teaching, right?
 
twopekinguys said:
You know, the funny thing is, none of the verses you quoted say anything about dark skin?
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If you know Afro-Asiatic, you’ll know that the Hebrew “Ham” is related to the Egyptian “Khem”, meaning “hot; sunburnt” and “black”, respectively. Thus, “Ham” is traditionally connected to dark or black-skinned inhabitants of Africa and Asia. The defense of slavery in the South was often based on a particular interpretation of Genesis, linking “Ham” with Africans in America. But that link is not explicit. Likewise, I haven’t seen any explicit link in Mormon scripture connecting modern Africans with a curse.

Do the Mormon scriptures explicitly link modern Africans with a curse, or is that linkage something that is implied in the text?
 
Marc_Anthony said:
So somebody who claims to be a Prophet, that has gone out and told people that God himself wanted us to be racist, might be wrong?

Then why do we trust anything the Prophets (which Apostles are supposed to be in Mormonism) say if we don’t know when they’re actually “speaking as Prophets”?

I would think that stating directly that something is a teaching of God constitutes a Prophetic teaching, right?
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Didn’t God tell the Hebrew prophets to kill thousands of Canaanites?
 
PaulDupre said:
Anyone who is contact with God, even once, would have a sense of what God is all about. Such a one would not ascribe to God attributes such as racial bigotry and misogyny.
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So, in other words, the rules on only a certain class of Hebrews being high priests, was not a rule that came from God?
 
Ahimsa said:
If you know Afro-Asiatic, you’ll know that the Hebrew “Ham” is related to the Egyptian “Khem”, meaning “hot; sunburnt” and “black”, respectively. Thus, “Ham” is traditionally connected to dark or black-skinned inhabitants of Africa and Asia. The defense of slavery in the South was often based on a particular interpretation of Genesis, linking “Ham” with Africans in America. But that link is not explicit. Likewise, I haven’t seen any explicit link in Mormon scripture connecting modern Africans with a curse.

Do the Mormon scriptures explicitly link modern Africans with a curse, or is that linkage something that is implied in the text?
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This lds scripture was quoted earlier. It is from 2 Nephi. (Bolding Mine)

“And he had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, that they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them.”

Keep in mind that the BoM was first published in 1830, which was prime slavery time in the US.

See the connection?
 
Ahimsa said:
Didn’t God tell the Hebrew prophets to kill thousands of Canaanites?
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Where in the bible does it say that God commanded the Israelites to kill the Canaanites because they were black? Where does it say that the Canaanites WERE black???
 
twopekinguys said:
This lds scripture was quoted earlier. It is from 2 Nephi. (Bolding Mine)

“And he had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, that they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them.”

Keep in mind that the BoM was first published in 1830, which was prime slavery time in the US.

See the connection?
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That quote seems to apply to the inhabitants of the New World, not to Africans.

To read “Africans” into this quote, is to do the same sort of misinterpretation that Southern slave owners did when they read about Noah cursing Ham/Canaan and then reading that as a justification for enslaving Africans.
 
Ahimsa said:
Didn’t God tell the Hebrew prophets to kill thousands of Canaanites?
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Oh! So you’re telling me that Mormons are obeying the teachings of their God and still do not have black Priests?

That would at least make them consistent. It’s not true though.
 
Ahimsa said:
That quote seems to apply to the inhabitants of the New World, not to Africans.

To read “Africans” into this quote, is to do the same sort of misinterpretation that Southern slave owners did when they read about Noah cursing Ham/Canaan and then reading that as a justification for enslaving Africans.
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You realize that slaves in the US were from Africa right? African-Americans.
 
Ahimsa said:
If you know Afro-Asiatic, you’ll know that the Hebrew “Ham” is related to the Egyptian “Khem”, meaning “hot; sunburnt” and “black”, respectively. Thus, “Ham” is traditionally connected to dark or black-skinned inhabitants of Africa and Asia. The defense of slavery in the South was often based on a particular interpretation of Genesis, linking “Ham” with Africans in America. But that link is not explicit. Likewise, I haven’t seen any explicit link in Mormon scripture connecting modern Africans with a curse.

Do the Mormon scriptures explicitly link modern Africans with a curse, or is that linkage something that is implied in the text?
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Right. But it was never an infallibly defined dogma of the Church. As far as I know it wasn’t even ever a real teaching of the Catholic Church, just a theological opinion some slaveowners used to justify their sins. A world of difference from Prophets coming out and stating to the people they were supposedly prophesying too that God taught racism.
 
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