Race, God, and the LDS Church

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PaulDupre said:
Where in the bible does it say that God commanded the Israelites to kill the Canaanites because they were black? Where does it say that the Canaanites WERE black???
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Canaan was a son of Ham, but that’s not the issue here. The issue is whether some groups of people are ‘cursed’ in either the Bible or the Mormon scriptures.
 
Marc_Anthony said:
Right. But it was never an infallibly defined dogma of the Church. As far as I know it wasn’t even ever a real teaching of the Catholic Church, just a theological opinion some slaveowners used to justify their sins. A world of difference from Prophets coming out and stating to the people they were supposedly prophesying too that God taught racism.
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Can you show me where these Prophets claim that infallibility in this issue?
 
Marc_Anthony said:
Oh! So you’re telling me that Mormons are obeying the teachings of their God and still do not have black Priests?

That would at least make them consistent. It’s not true though.
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Mormons do have Black priests. Joseph Smith ordained the first one.
 
Ahimsa said:
Canaan was a son of Ham, but that’s not the issue here. The issue is whether some groups of people are ‘cursed’ in either the Bible or the Mormon scriptures.
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Catholics say no, the Bible doesn’t teach that some people today are inferior to others, but even if the Bible DID teach that that’s not really the issue. The issue is that Mormon Prophets preached that the inferiority of blacks is a teaching of God, and then they contradicted this. So was God wrong? Or was the Prophet wrong? And if the Prophet was wrong, then how do we know when the Prophets actually know that the teaching is really from God or not. If God was wrong, doesn’t tell you something about the religion?
 
Ahimsa said:
Right, but the quote from Nephi is traditionally connected to Native Americans, not Africans.
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Traditionally, it was directed toward Native Americans AND the slaves of the South, because both had dark/black skin as opposed to “White and Delitghtsom”.

Even if it was directed only toward Native Americans, it is still Racism, and is part of their scripture and doctrine.
 
Ahimsa said:
Mormons do have Black priests. Joseph Smith ordained the first one.
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Missing the point. Even if they had SOME black Priests (and I know they do today) we have shown several quotes from Mormon Prophets that repeatedly claim blacks are inferior, and that God taught this. This teaching was then contradicted. That is a problem for various reasons, as I have said several times.
 
Ahimsa said:
Can you show me where these Prophets claim that infallibility in this issue?
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Oh? So now it’s impossible to know whether :Prophets are infallible or not even if they are saying flat out that the teachings are from God?

Doesn’t that mean that it’s impossible to know whether ANY of the teachings of Mormonism are true?

They claimed, several times, that God gave them the teachings. God is infallible. So the Mormons had to be wrong.
 
Marc_Anthony said:
Catholics say no, the Bible doesn’t teach that some people today are inferior to others, but even if the Bible DID teach that that’s not really the issue. The issue is that Mormon Prophets preached that the inferiority of blacks is a teaching of God, and then they contradicted this. So was God wrong? Or was the Prophet wrong? And if the Prophet was wrong, then how do we know when the Prophets actually know that the teaching is really from God or not. If God was wrong, doesn’t tell you something about the religion?
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We can play this game all night. 😃 Didn’t God tell Moses that some animals were clean and some unclearn. But Christians don’t teach this. Was God wrong? Or was Moses wrong? If Moses was wrong, how do we know if what he taught was really from God or not?

My point is that both the Bible and the specifically LDS scriptures do have “curses” directed at certain individuals (e.g., Ham/Canaan; Lamanites).

My other point is that both Christians in general, and many Mormons, have gone beyond the scriptural statements and claimed that certain whole populations are similarly cursed.
 
All persons are equal in dignity before God because all persons are made in the “image and likeness” of God. To suggest that God would be a racist or a misogynist is preposterous and there is no Biblical support for that position.

That doesn’t mean that people haven’t selected passages from the Bible to try to justify their racism, because they have. That also doesn’t mean that there haven’t been people that were racists, including Priests, because there have been. In every case, the racism was on the part of the person, it was not a doctrine of the Church.

It is quite clear, in contrast, that the Mormon church had, at one time, doctrine that was unequivocally racist. That may make some in the Mormon faith uncomfortable, but it is the truth. It is good that the racist doctrines and policies of the Mormon church have been reversed.
 
Ahimsa said:
Mormons do have Black priests. Joseph Smith ordained the first one.
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The Black man that Joseph ordained had his ordination revoked under Brigham Young. Then no other blacks could receive the priesthood until 1978.
 
Ahimsa said:
Which teachings? Or are you saying that Mormon Prophets claim that everything they say, 24 hours a day, is directly from God?
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Really? So now, even when Mormon Prophets say that the teaching is from God, we can’t be sure if they’re right?

Then how do we know if any of the teachings of Mormonism are right? They may or may not have actually been taught by God apparently.
 
Marc_Anthony said:
Missing the point. Even if they had SOME black Priests (and I know they do today) we have shown several quotes from Mormon Prophets that repeatedly claim blacks are inferior, and that God taught this. This teaching was then contradicted.
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Did these Prophets cite explicit Mormon scripture that said “Africans are inferior and cannot be priests” or did these Prophets read into Mormon scripture ideas that may have been prevalent in America (e.g., among Southern Baptists?) at the time?
 
Marc_Anthony said:
Really? So now, even when Mormon Prophets say that the teaching is from God, we can’t be sure if they’re right?

Then how do we know if any of the teachings of Mormonism are right? They may or may not have actually been taught by God apparently.
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I would hope that if anyone says “My teaching is from God”, that you would be a bit critical and use one’s God-given reasoning and ask “Is this teaching really from God?”😃
 
Ahimsa said:
My other point is that both Christians in general, and many Mormons, have gone beyond the scriptural statements and claimed that certain whole populations are similarly cursed.
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Thank you for making my point then (I don’t even know what the rest of your post has to do with anything to be honest).

The difference with Mormons is that Mormon Prophets came out and said that black inferiority was a teaching of God. And then they went and said that they didn’t teach this “infallibly” and thanks to the murky definitions of what constitutes Mormon infallibility they were able to slide through this little issue mostly damage-free.
 
Ahimsa said:
Did these Prophets cite explicit Mormon scripture that said “Africans are inferior and cannot be priests” or did these Prophets read into Mormon scripture ideas that may have been prevalent in America (e.g., among Southern Baptists?) at the time?
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The Mormon First Presidency stated that the priesthood ban was a commandment of the Lord. Were they right or wrong?
 
twopekinguys said:
The Black man that Joseph ordained had his ordination revoked under Brigham Young. Then no other blacks could receive the priesthood until 1978.
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Is Brigham Young greater than Smith? Was Brigham Young inerrant, infallible, and sinless?
 
Ahimsa said:
Did these Prophets cite explicit Mormon scripture that said “Africans are inferior and cannot be priests” or did these Prophets read into Mormon scripture ideas that may have been prevalent in America (e.g., among Southern Baptists?) at the time?
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Same thing. If LDS “prophets” took the contemporary hatreds and bigotries of society and presented them to the faithful as the Word of God, then these men were not prophets at all. They were false prophets and agents of Satan.
 
Ahimsa said:
I would hope that if anyone says “My teaching is from God”, that you would be a bit critical and use one’s God-given reasoning and ask “Is this teaching really from God?”😃
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So what you’re telling me is that we can’t know whether any of Mormonism’s teachings are actually from God?

Then why have teachings? We have reason to doubt the Prophets, the founder of the religion, and we have contradictory doctrines. I think we can finally safely conclude that Mormonism is false.
 
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