Racism and Genocide in America by the US Government

[guanophore]

Did I say that I opposed government? If so, please offer a link to where I said so.

Sean is just not reading carefully.

Relevance?

Is it the United States Government that you are opposed to or all government?

He did not catch that you are in Canada, and that you were speaking about how the Catholic Church treated the Natives, and not the secular government. In fact, he may be responding to the wrong person!

 

[Br_Joshua_Seidl]

What do you propose as a solution? How do you avoid assimilation? How far back do you go? Do we take away the power boats, cars, ATV’s, guns, and even horses, so the natives can live as they once did? How about canned foods, refrigerated meats, and, better yet, alcohol and drugs?

The fact is, these people have at least partially assimilated and, unfortunately, not everything they’ve adopted has been good. There is a program to teach the old ways, but it requires a certain amount of discipline and work. Most of the kids just aren’t interested in even learning about their own culture, much less preserving it, if it requires that they do anything they don’t want to do.

The former chief kept much more of the casino profits for the community rather than individual payouts. The new chief, who according to the rules written by the tribe, is popularly elected, got elected by promising to increase the individual payouts. If the trend continues, they will end up biting the hand that feeds them and will have even less than they have now.

Regardless of which culture they wish to keep, or some combination of the two, too many are currently living in a never-never land, not really being a productive part of either. I personally can’t change the past and am at a loss as to how the government, the Church, or us as individuals can instill in them the motivation to do do something besides sit around and wait on their next casino checks. The problems just go back too many generations and are too ingrained. The tribal leaders appear to be just as perplexed as to how to break this cycle and would, I’m sure, welcome your suggestions.

What do I propose as a solution? Well slow down a bit for one. Most of what I had already mentioned originates not from me as a personal oppinion (in part personal) but are taken from speaches of John Paul II and Vatican Documents.

$3,000 a year? Wow. now that comes to about $1.44 an hour on a staight 40-hour work week. It a nice figure in one lump check - otherwise, it hardly spells wealth. What percent of White Gambling is distributed to the citizens?

I’m curious – this business about banning ATV, power boats, horses and guns – what does that have to do with Culture?

The people of any given culture may catch on to the technology presented by another culture - but that does not mean assimilation. For example, the use of gun powder did not turn the cultures of Europe into Chinese, nor did the use of Algebra (ancestor name: Al Gebrahn) from the Arab regions end up in forced assimilation of Europeans into Arab cultures.

I realize there has been a rumor going around for a couple hundred year that we are a vanishing brred, vanishing culture and so forth. However, we are not vanishing. Its simply an urban myth.

 

[geezerbob]

What do I propose as a solution? Well slow down a bit for one. Most of what I had already mentioned originates not from me as a personal oppinion (in part personal) but are taken from speaches of John Paul II and Vatican Documents.

$3,000 a year? Wow. now that comes to about $1.44 an hour on a staight 40-hour work week. It a nice figure in one lump check - otherwise, it hardly spells wealth. What percent of White Gambling is distributed to the citizens?

I’m curious – this business about banning ATV, power boats, horses and guns – what does that have to do with Culture?

The people of any given culture may catch on to the technology presented by another culture - but that does not mean assimilation. For example, the use of gun powder did not turn the cultures of Europe into Chinese, nor did the use of Algebra (ancestor name: Al Gebrahn) from the Arab regions end up in forced assimilation of Europeans into Arab cultures.

I realize there has been a rumor going around for a couple hundred year that we are a vanishing brred, vanishing culture and so forth. However, we are not vanishing. Its simply an urban myth.

Apparently you missed the part of my earlier post where I stated that I had seen no obvious trappings of wealth other than the lakefront land that makes up a good portion of this small reservation. It was someone else who said they were all filthy rich. Such a statement is not uncommon, though. Members of this band talk about how much more the members of this or that tribe are getting from their casino operations, that they’re all millionaires, etc.

I have no idea how the profits of the casino are split between whatever company owns the Grand Casino name and the tribe, just that the tribal council controls how much of its share is distributed to individuals and how much is kept for the community as a whole. Neither do I know the percentage retained for the community versus the percentage distributed to individuals. Since I was a guest there, I listened a lot but asked very few questions. Essentially, I came away only with information which was volunteered and freely given.

You keep talking about culture and the evils of assimilation. I saw very little native culture - just a few old timers trying to run a museum to keep it alive and teaching it to what few youngsters cared to learn. I would assume that most of the tribe have jobs somewhere and live pretty much like the rest of us - three bedrooms, two baths, a pickup or SUV, and a boat, although I never did find anyone who exactly fit that description.

The culture that I saw was a welfare/drug/alcohol culture, which admittedly didn’t include the entire tribe, and I’m certain that’s not what you had in mind. I still say that you can’t keep or restore the old culture without first dealing in some fashion with what that culture has become, and saying “The Church teaches…” doesn’t begin to address the problem in concrete and specific ways. I saw the same problems on that reservation that I see in my home town and don’t know what to do about them in either place. Suffering humanity is suffering humanity, regardless of the skin color or cultural background, so please tell us how you would deal with these basic human problems before you start down the culture path again. Talking culture to an habitual drunk is about as fruitless as a Catholic trying to convert a Baptist. It’s usually just wasted breath.

I agree that the native tribes should retain as much of their heritage as possible, but it’s unlikely to happen unless they or we or us can deal with the underlying human problems first.

 

[Br_Joshua_Seidl]

Apparently you missed the part of my earlier post where I stated that I had seen no obvious trappings of wealth other than the lakefront land that makes up a good portion of this small reservation. It was someone else who said they were all filthy rich. Such a statement is not uncommon, though. Members of this band talk about how much more the members of this or that tribe are getting from their casino operations, that they’re all millionaires, etc.

I have no idea how the profits of the casino are split between whatever company owns the Grand Casino name and the tribe, just that the tribal council controls how much of its share is distributed to individuals and how much is kept for the community as a whole. Neither do I know the percentage retained for the community versus the percentage distributed to individuals. Since I was a guest there, I listened a lot but asked very few questions. Essentially, I came away only with information which was volunteered and freely given.

You keep talking about culture and the evils of assimilation. I saw very little native culture - just a few old timers trying to run a museum to keep it alive and teaching it to what few youngsters cared to learn. I would assume that most of the tribe have jobs somewhere and live pretty much like the rest of us - three bedrooms, two baths, a pickup or SUV, and a boat, although I never did find anyone who exactly fit that description.

The culture that I saw was a welfare/drug/alcohol culture, which admittedly didn’t include the entire tribe, and I’m certain that’s not what you had in mind. I still say that you can’t keep or restore the old culture without first dealing in some fashion with what that culture has become, and saying “The Church teaches…” doesn’t begin to address the problem in concrete and specific ways. I saw the same problems on that reservation that I see in my home town and don’t know what to do about them in either place. Suffering humanity is suffering humanity, regardless of the skin color or cultural background, so please tell us how you would deal with these basic human problems before you start down the culture path again. Talking culture to an habitual drunk is about as fruitless as a Catholic trying to convert a Baptist. It’s usually just wasted breath.

I agree that the native tribes should retain as much of their heritage as possible, but it’s unlikely to happen unless they or we or us can deal with the underlying human problems first.

 

[Br_Joshua_Seidl]

We deal with poverty, alcohol and drugs in a number of ways. I generaly do not discuss with a person who is currently enebriated about the methods or need to get straight. As I can, this is taken up during their periods of sobriety. Sometimes it might happen during a person’s third incarceration, or after their fouth divorce.

Our traditional ways of finding balance in the community and accepting responcibilities along with our ceremonies have proved to be very effective. There are, and probaly will be for a long time to come, a number of folks on the down and out who can’t be helped very much at the moment. I am adjusting to life in a very large city. Everyday there are folks who figure my roman collar spells a hand out. I do not see their irresponcibility as my emergency. These folks on the down and out are from all sorts of back grounds.

I find that those who have gone through this are the ones most adept at assisting others. Seldom is this done by attending the places where drinking and drug taking takes place – but on individual basis.

I am a bit better at preventaive measures than at recovery measures. I have not gone thorugh the experiences of drug and alcohol addictions. Our Indigenous ways and teachings and traditions and our languages are very important keys in preventing and in recovery.

Sorry about my mix up as to who made the claim we were getting rich on Cassino profits.

We do have some hurdles to cross with regards to obtaining the freedom to work our culture to handle these things. A pastor not long back gave a beautiful talk inviting the local Native People back into the Church thier ancestors built. A Church they never moved from, but racism slowly kept them out of. The well meaning pastor became alarmed when that tribe took him up on the offer. Come with your traditions, he said. when they did, he paniced and tossed them out of the Church. The same tribe had the Church doors shut on them 5 times in the same year.

They remain faithful - but are very hurt. This and many other cases or rejection shows that we have not assimilated, do not have any desire to assimilate, and are scorned frequently for not assimilating. Another priest forbids traditional grave side ceremonies becasue he has failed to learn the local language. The language did not die out – many know the language. We just learned not to let Church and Civic authorities know we kept these ways.

A starting point is to have slower paced meetings, and a few of them so that when wonderful well intentioned Clergy and Religious want to invite us back into our lands, into the Churches we built, or the Churches on land we gave (taken from us - but I liek the words we gave) – that they learn what it is they are saying, getting involved in and such.

Fear of our grave side prayers and ceremony because the Padre assigned to us failed to learn our language? I think that is pitiful.

A large portion of the First Nation populations has not assimilated as much as some folks would like to believe. There are Natives my age (56) who can detail how they were taught to run and where to hide from the age of 5 incase the government and Church people performed a raid on the families. Our children were being dragged from their homes for assimilation. They were treated terrible mental, physical, emotional and spiritual ways.

I propose we start by restoring these ways, strengthening them. Its true some one with a bottle in their hand might not be ready today — but it is also true some of our most powerful leaders and teachers, kind and strong have recovered from the bottle and drugs. They did it our way.

Are we truly permitted into the average Catholic Church in full accord with our customs? That day may come. It is not here yet. The key to healing is in Native Spirituality. Its a spiritual and physical battle we cannot let slide one day.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

geezerbob:

The fact is, these people have at least partially assimilated and, unfortunately, not everything they’ve adopted has been good.

Why do we not talk about the assimilation of the immigrants into Indian ways?

geezerbob:

Regardless of which culture they wish to keep, or some combination of the two, too many are currently living in a never-never land, not really being a productive part of either.

Think about it, bobster. Cannot the same be said for all the lost generations of immigrants?

Is there not some way we can accept the very best and most noble traits of both the First Nations and those nations who came after and marry them?

I call for the Peace Shield.

 

[Br_Joshua_Seidl]

Peace Shield?

Eh. I can think about that. It’s been a while since anyone asked me. Got to prepare yourself. Send me some tobacco and a nicce gift. I’ll need an ATV or a good Horse to get there.

I need to consult some Elders, get some good wisdom from them first, and some right words. Then I got to do some fasting and maybe do a give away. It’s legal for us to give away once again. So I don’t have to worry about going to jail about that one any more. We usta get in trouble for praying, but not any more. Then maybe some one will prepare a sweat for me.

Did I ever tell you the story of how Waynabozo burned his behind? Its a good story. He made a promise to these ducks you see …

Well maybe if I get out there with the shield we can all listen to that story.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

Br Joshua Seidl:

Peace Shield?

Eh. I can think about that. It’s been a while since anyone asked me. Got to prepare yourself.

Don’t both sides have to request the Peace Shield?
Br Joshua Seidl:

Send me some tobacco and a nicce gift. I’ll need an ATV or a good Horse to get there.

This’ll take some time. I’ll go look.

 

[Br_Joshua_Seidl]

Don’t both sides have to request the Peace Shield?

This’ll take some time. I’ll go look.

Ja, ja – You’re right. Both sides have to ask for a Peace Shield person to come. So, does this mean I don’t get the ATV or Horse?

 

[Ani_Ibi]

Ja, ja – You’re right. Both sides have to ask for a Peace Shield person to come. So, does this mean I don’t get the ATV or Horse?

If you find another person, you get ATV and equine buddy. Oh, what is ATV?

 

[Br_Joshua_Seidl]

If you find another person, you get ATV and equine buddy. Oh, what is ATV?

ATV is a motorized horse, has three wheels and drices through dessert, forest and swaps. I’m a bit heavy these last few years to try the swamp. That might prove to be embarassing for a guy my age. All-terrain-vehicle. Or is it Assimilated Transport Volken?
Tot sients, en bedankje (oh I am becoming so assimilated)

 

[Califman831]

another good link is www.indiancountry.com

 

[redbird444]

I say we abolish Indian Reservations completely. There is nothing worse than having a “nation inside a nation”. This is America and we should live together in the same society following the same laws as we have done for generations. To have these isolated communities within our own country is an abomination.

Interesting and funny discussion. I am a member of the Kiowa tribe of Oklahoma. I love comments like the one above. NOT.

Why on earth would you call for abolishment of the REZ? We promised not to shoot any more flaming arrows at your wagon trains!

The reservations were set aside for Indians to live on during the Indian Remval and Indian wars history of America. Try getting out of your suburbia, and get to know some Native Peoples. There is a lot of beauty in our culture and we may not wish to become as white and wal martish as you would like us to be.

And nothing worse than a nation inside a nation? like the vatican?

We should live together in the same society …? We DO live together in America last time I checked. I currently live behind the “buckskin curtain” and proud to be Indian and do not consider myself to be an abomination.

P.S. The laws are not the same for all Americans, in case you haven’t noticed. The Native beliefs *Sun Dance and religions were outlawed, even the sweat lodge. I could go on, but this topic has been rehashed so often its best to let lanza27’s opinion lie.

I would like to recommend Custer Died For Your Sins for enlightenment on Indian/US Govt issues.

Time to pass the pax pipe!!!

 

[redbird444]

Wow, Here in Minnesota tribes own casinos and are filthy rich. They are not subject to the same laws as the rest of us and enjoy highly privileged existences. Most of the employees at the casinos are non-Indian because Indians don’t have to work, they just get their monthly check in the mail. As for sovereignty, the Red Lake Band maintains a closed reservation to which only members are admitted. Two years ago after the Red Lake Massacre even law enforcement and news people were strictly controlled as to their movements. The only time the band is friendly to non-Indians is when they want some help. The Red Lake Band has control of a huge part of Red Lake from which they sell tons of fish and bring in large sums of money. Check it out.

LOL! Gee, I hate it when those pesky Injuns get filthy rich! Only the pale faces are allowed that privilage!!

Not subject to the same laws? You mean its not okay for Indians to pass laws on Indian land? Another privilage of the white man’s domain copied? Oh my!

Media folks descending on Red Lake looking for a story. Now, there’s a clear violation of good old red blooded American rights!! Ban CNN!!??? Say it ain’t so~

The only time the band is friendly to non-Indians is when they want something??? OMG, anytime you use a broad generalization you immediately negate the validity of your statement. How can you even post such drivel?

Red Lake band selling fish??? Confound those pesky capitalists!! I hate it when they become business oriented! They were SUPPOSED to stay home and get free checks and string beads!!!

Wow,I bet they even let them become catholics!!

 

[Ani_Ibi]

redbird444:

Interesting and funny discussion. I am a member of the Kiowa tribe of Oklahoma.

Hi.

redbird444:

The Native beliefs *Sun Dance and religions were outlawed, even the sweat lodge.

I thought the Ghost Dance was outlawed. Am I wrong? Do you have some info on the Sun Dance? Bro gave us some stuff on sweat lodge earlier.

redbird444:

I could go on, but this topic has been rehashed so often its best to let lanza27’s opinion lie.

Things is that it has not been rehashed on CAF. This is the most persistent and substantive thread I can remember on this subject in a long while. Please do go on. All First Nations – not just Catholic First Nations – are people. It is important for Catholics to understand things from your perspective.

As you know, stuff happened. Healing must take place for all peoples. I called for the Peace Shield. Who else was going to do it? I don’t know where that will go, but do I need to?

redbird444:

I would like to recommend Custer Died For Your Sins for enlightenment on Indian/US Govt issues.

Yeah, I just watched Geronimo on APN last night too.

redbird444:

Time to pass the pax pipe!!!

 

[Califman831]

This Pine Ridge clip, looks like it came from nbc

youtube.com/watch?v=rsJ8UlYCSXY

 

[JohnPaulTwoToo]

… it is time to acknowledge the original inhabitants of this country and give them at least an apology and make an attempt at restitution for the crimes perpetrated against them in the name of progress.
… those of us who wish to stand up for the civil and human rights of the Native Americans and their descendants.

mgrobertson: Meegwech for bringing these issues to a Catholic forum. Providentialy, there’s a place where native and non-native people share their traditions a short walk from my apartment: DODEM KANONHSA’ . I go there frequently and have heard many of your grievances echoed by the elders, who come from all around the Great Lakes region. These are many of the same speakers I met while travelling around Indian Country years ago back during the Oka crisis. Imagine that – they practically come to my doorstep now! :extrahappy: Really saves on the gas money.

The Residential School tragedy has been discussed extensively. The separation of kids from their natural parents not only kills the culture; it also kills the kid. The elders are very alarmed at the rate of loss of native language and culture, and clearly relate youth suicide to this loss. Families are the primary vehicle for transmitting language and culture and the fundamental buiding block for all societies.

You may be surprised that the Church sees a similar threat in the broader society, although it takes a somewhat different mode. Have a look through these reports:

The Tyrannical Character of the ‘Child Protective Service’

A GRAVE THREAT TO THE FAMILY: AMERICAN LAW AND PUBLIC POLICY ON CHILD ABUSE AND NEGLECT

This isn’t just grousing from the fringe. Look at who’s on the advisory board of the organization that produced the reports:

Advisory Board of the Society of Catholic Social Scientists

If you know anyone good with a bow and arrow to join up with our halberds and maces, come along for the fun! The fight’s sure to heat up. :knight2: :knight1:

 

[Jerusha]

:extrahappy: I have read this thread. Sorry I didn’t notice it earlier. What else could I say?

 

[strngrnrth]

The US Gov’t ought to give about four or five states to the Natives and get completely out, as separate as it ought to stay from every other foreign land. The Native tribal councils should choose the states. I suggest border and coastal states, as they are easier to defend, the inner ones being surrounded by US territory. This really isn’t much to offer as a gesture of peace, considering the Natives once had the whole landmass from Arctic to Tierra Del Fuego and all the islands near it. How these Native American Countries wish to arrange themselves, as one country (I’d recommend this for practical reasons) or a million, is their own governments’ decision. It would barely alter our country. I am sure that at least some of the Native American Countries would even let us live there or vacation there. Even if they asked for New York, Pennsylvania, Massachussetts, Texas and California, e.g., it really isn’t much compared to what we still have.
Then if they want to live in a traditional way, a modern way, a mixture or a new way they come up with later on, or even try a totally different traditional way of life for a while, and model their infrastructure on an ancient culture in Africa or someplace else, it’s nobody’s business if they do, as long as they don’t threaten anyone else or committ any unusual human rights violations. And I’d be a lot more worried about the white man doing that, myself.

 

[Jerusha]

United States Department of the Interior— LOL

Settle the debt (Cobell included) by turning over all (or nearly all) the national park system to the tribes. Many tribes then could return home. I would imagine John Muir would have a belly-laugh over that.

The US Gov’t ought to give about four or five states to the Natives and get completely out, as separate as it ought to stay from every other foreign land.

That was what the Louisiana Purchase was intended for. You gotta be kidding!!!