C
Cristiano
Guest
You are partially correct. That is one of the reasons why people choose to leave the Church, they want to feel good but they really are in a position where they are called to suffer.
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J
JackieMom
Guest
I’m not sure what you mean by this. Is this intended for me or another poster? As I said in the original post, I WANT my kids to have faith and feel secure in a loving God. I don’t want them to think that when we die we are simply dead. I do not want to tear down their faith. I hope I did not imply that I did.
My husband is a lot like me, maybe slightly less skeptical. He says there is really no way to know if there is a God or not, so we ought to act like there is just in case. He says that if there is a God, he doubts that he cares about things like gold chalices, expensive churches, scapulars, confession and certain prayers but that there could be a “great creator” out there who is bigger than us and that He probably just wants us to be good people. He was also raised Catholic and is on board with Catholic school and giving our kids a shot at the faith. He agrees that it’s a great way to raise a family.
I guess for me, it’s like education. Just because a parent was not successful in academia does not mean they don’t want their kids to do their very best academically. I love the idea that my deceased relatives are not merely dead. Both of my parents have passed away and it’s hard to think about them just no longer existing. However, I can’t help but think that Heaven is a nice story someone made up to keep people from being too sad when their relatives died.
I want my kids to have faith. I want my kids to feel that sense of security. I want them to feel that there is a God who is always rooting for them. I want them to think twice before taking the selfish way out. I guess it’s hard for me, though, because in my 32 years, I’ve seen zero proof that any religion is based in fact or has any validity.
If God wanted us to worship him, believe in him, and trust in him - he sure went about it in a convoluted way that is nearly impossible to really believe. I know, I know - this can all be explained away because “God is mysterious” and we “can never fully understand him in his wisdom.” I wish those answers were good enough for me. I truly, truly do.
Thank you.
T
TheRealJuliane
Guest
No, that post was for you. I wanted to know if your husband is a faithful Catholic. And you answered that question, so thanks.
Do you analyze why gravity works? Do you do it every day? Do you question relativity? There are some things you do accept and assume to be true.
But I do not want to give you false hope that your children will turn out to be faithful and devout Catholics. Would you really want them to be? Or would you think, “Well, they got brainwashed.” “A shot at the faith” is all you can manage? Why bother? Have they been baptized yet?
As I read your responses, I get the impression that being Catholic never got internalized for you. It’s all about the externals - the “bells and smells,” the art, the Saint stories - but you’ve never made a connection between yourself and God. How are you going to help your kids make that connection when you don’t have one? Do you really want them to just have a “culture” or “club Catholic” life?
I don’t know, your situation is confusing to me. It’s like you think there might be something to all this religious stuff, so you’re reluctant to give it up, but yet, you can’t quite believe it so you just stand there betwixt and between, and your children are going to be confused or turned off if you try and fake it.
Maybe you should read some more about the miracles of Mary. There are many. You haven’t had ANY inexplicable occurrences in your own life? Or anyone you know?
J
JackieMom
Guest
A
aicirt
Guest
There are many people who are have had similiar thoughts. THE JOURNEY HOME on EWTN is marvelous. You may also look up previous testimonies on Marcus Gordi’s web. Many will share how and why they converted from being skeptics.
Check out the various miracles and apparations approved by the Church. One is the recent Eucharistic Miracle that happened in Argentina in 1996. Read the report on the findings and then check out the other Eucharistic Miracles. Others are St. Bernadette, and Fatima also the history of the Miraculous Medal.
Keep things simple. Ask God “Help me to know You.” Then let go. Keep going to Mass and communion. Try and clear your mind and turn it over to God. He’ll do it for you, you just have to keep going to Mass and keep asking.
Check out the various miracles and apparations approved by the Church. One is the recent Eucharistic Miracle that happened in Argentina in 1996. Read the report on the findings and then check out the other Eucharistic Miracles. Others are St. Bernadette, and Fatima also the history of the Miraculous Medal.
Keep things simple. Ask God “Help me to know You.” Then let go. Keep going to Mass and communion. Try and clear your mind and turn it over to God. He’ll do it for you, you just have to keep going to Mass and keep asking.
T
TheRealJuliane
Guest
OP, here’s a thought. Go to a Catholic bookstore. Get a Green Scapular. Have it blessed. Wear it under your clothing. Pray every day, “Immaculate Heart of Mary, pray for us now and at the hour of our death.” And say any other prayer that you are moved to say. You may think this is superstition, but it is a prayer that works to help convert people to the faith.
And I will add you to my prayers. Please try to pray for the willingness to have faith. Just the willingness. Ask for God’s signs in your life. Just ask. You will see them. But you have to ask.
God bless you and your family.
And I will add you to my prayers. Please try to pray for the willingness to have faith. Just the willingness. Ask for God’s signs in your life. Just ask. You will see them. But you have to ask.
God bless you and your family.
Y
yellowbird
Guest
I was raised without any faith - and I wish I had been raised in the Catholic Church even if my parents didn’t believe, for all the reasons you stated.
We are all a work in progress… don’t be so hard on yourself. Take them to mass, and hopefully your faith will increase. In my opinion, there is no downside to this.
I will pray for you, friend.
We are all a work in progress… don’t be so hard on yourself. Take them to mass, and hopefully your faith will increase. In my opinion, there is no downside to this.
I will pray for you, friend.
S
sweetpetunia
Guest
Hi Jackie!
Welcome! You actually remind me a lot of myself! Sometimes I struggle with belief as well, but one thing I did conclude after some serious soul-searching, was that no matter what I was personally tussling with, I would not deprive my children of being raised in the faith. Part of my motivation was the pre-nuptial and baptismal promises I made, where I agreed to raise them Catholic, and part of it was, like you, I did not want to deprive them of what faith and the Catholic Church has to offer. I am utterly convinced for many reasons that this would not be intellectually dishonest, and that it would be in their best interest.
My own personal journey in faith is an ongoing struggle, as doubts do crop up every once in a while, but I think I am making progress! Much like your husband, I did go through a deist phase, as well as a Pascal’s wager phase. Luckily, science is not an issue for me, and people like Richard Dawkins just make me laugh, mainly because no matter how hard he tries, the natural world cannot be expected to completely define, explain and cover the supernatural realm. Science only deals with the physical universe. By definition, it cannot address the non-material. Not everything is scientifically measurable, and not everything can be reduced to sheer mathematics. (Thank goodness, or there could be no such thing as free will, for example!) That would be the domain for philosophers and theologians, and even though the subject matter is different, in terms of intellect, I’m pretty sure Aquinas can kick any modern scientist’s butt any day, lol!
To be continued…
Welcome! You actually remind me a lot of myself! Sometimes I struggle with belief as well, but one thing I did conclude after some serious soul-searching, was that no matter what I was personally tussling with, I would not deprive my children of being raised in the faith. Part of my motivation was the pre-nuptial and baptismal promises I made, where I agreed to raise them Catholic, and part of it was, like you, I did not want to deprive them of what faith and the Catholic Church has to offer. I am utterly convinced for many reasons that this would not be intellectually dishonest, and that it would be in their best interest.
My own personal journey in faith is an ongoing struggle, as doubts do crop up every once in a while, but I think I am making progress! Much like your husband, I did go through a deist phase, as well as a Pascal’s wager phase. Luckily, science is not an issue for me, and people like Richard Dawkins just make me laugh, mainly because no matter how hard he tries, the natural world cannot be expected to completely define, explain and cover the supernatural realm. Science only deals with the physical universe. By definition, it cannot address the non-material. Not everything is scientifically measurable, and not everything can be reduced to sheer mathematics. (Thank goodness, or there could be no such thing as free will, for example!) That would be the domain for philosophers and theologians, and even though the subject matter is different, in terms of intellect, I’m pretty sure Aquinas can kick any modern scientist’s butt any day, lol!
To be continued…
S
sweetpetunia
Guest
Speaking of which, I guess a starting grounds for me was to realize that there are many modern great intellects–scientists, philosophers, and the like-- who do believe in God/the Catholic Church most firmly and do not find any evidence that contraindicates their faith. In fact, on the contrary, these people usually have a very well thought out rationale as to why their faith is the only possible logical conclusion. So, if you know people like this, I highly, highly recommend asking them some key questions. Look for people whom you consider learned, intelligent, well-informed, and well-rounded. (They don’t have to be philosophers or physicists!)
I am happy to know two such people, and they have been an enormous blessing for me thus far. The first is my husband—he is highly intelligent with unwavering faith. I love to curl up under the covers with him and have metaphysical discussions. Usually what happens is I will ask him why he believes in whatever issue I am struggling with (God’s existence, etc.), and it sort of goes from there, sometimes into the wee hours. The second is my spiritual director. He teaches seminarians and so of course is very learned and very patient. Oddly enough, I was just discussing doubts and a perceived lack of “signs”/answers to prayer with him this past weekend! I actually got a bunch of really great advice from him, but one thing that he said that has given me a lot of peace is a quote he remembered from one of Cardinal Newman’s books. (Blessed Cardinal John Henry Newman was a convert to Catholicism, and my spiritual director recommend his works to me. I’m hoping to get my hands on his Apologia Pro Vita Sua soon! I am also hoping to pick up a few more books by G. K. Chesterton who was also a convert, and a very brilliant one at that! His books are amazing.) Anyways, I digress. The quote was “ten thousand difficulties do not make one doubt”.(It finishes “as I understand the subject; difficulty and doubt are incommensurate”.) Isn’t that profound?
To be continued…
I am happy to know two such people, and they have been an enormous blessing for me thus far. The first is my husband—he is highly intelligent with unwavering faith. I love to curl up under the covers with him and have metaphysical discussions. Usually what happens is I will ask him why he believes in whatever issue I am struggling with (God’s existence, etc.), and it sort of goes from there, sometimes into the wee hours. The second is my spiritual director. He teaches seminarians and so of course is very learned and very patient. Oddly enough, I was just discussing doubts and a perceived lack of “signs”/answers to prayer with him this past weekend! I actually got a bunch of really great advice from him, but one thing that he said that has given me a lot of peace is a quote he remembered from one of Cardinal Newman’s books. (Blessed Cardinal John Henry Newman was a convert to Catholicism, and my spiritual director recommend his works to me. I’m hoping to get my hands on his Apologia Pro Vita Sua soon! I am also hoping to pick up a few more books by G. K. Chesterton who was also a convert, and a very brilliant one at that! His books are amazing.) Anyways, I digress. The quote was “ten thousand difficulties do not make one doubt”.(It finishes “as I understand the subject; difficulty and doubt are incommensurate”.) Isn’t that profound?
To be continued…
S
sweetpetunia
Guest
Back to your specific questions: “Is it wrong of me to raise Catholic kids, even if I don’t believe?” No, of course not. It’s commendable to raise your kids Catholic. Full stop.
Is it lying? No, it’s not, because sentiment doesn’t define truth. Your feelings toward Catholicism do not define the reality of its tenets. Whether or not you believe in it does not alter it’s veracity. You may struggle with belief (as did St. Peter) but you are not teaching your children something that you know to be false. You are teaching them something that you are not sure of, because you believe it is the right thing to do. Your doubts do not make Catholicism a lie.
“Is it wrong of me to want them to have (even a false) sense of security and to experience the idea that there is a God who loves them unconditionally?” No, it would be wrong to deprive them of the knowledge of a God who loves them unconditionally. Back to Pascal’s wager, one could equally argue that not raising them in the faith would be a false sense of security.
Like you and every other human being in the world, your children have a desire for God. (Your posts are very indicative of your desire for him!) We are, by our very nature, religious beings with a built-in desire for God. If you can help them to fill this void, fill this very basic human need, then you are doing the right thing.
If you still need convincing about moving forward despite doubt, maybe this will help. Mother Teresa of Calcutta gave up her entire life to care for the poorest of the poor. She’d care for each person as though they were Christ himself. She once wrote “I am a pencil in the hand of God writing a love letter to the world." It wasn’t until after her death when some of her personal private letters were published
that people discovered that she suffered from doubt and a complete lack of spiritual consolation for the ENTIRE LENGTH of her missionary work. Despite this, she chose to give her life to Christ anyways, doing tasks in His name that others (and she herself!) would not have done for a million dollars. She wrote: "And how much more ugly could he make himself than a badly diseased leper? And yet it is he. We must know it. As I know that two and two make four, I must know that it is Jesus in that person.” If she had not chosen to believe and live out the faith she no longer felt, then millions of people would have felt the loss. Instead, she is a saint who touched the lives of millions of people, and her legacy lives on. Honestly, I think she should be dubbed patron saint of those who suffer from doubts
She is certainly an inspiration to me!
I hope this helps in some way. Please do not give up on your own journey of faith! If you have any specific issues that you are struggling with, feel free to ask away if it helps. This is a great community of believers who are also seeking answers to faith questions. God bless you.
Is it lying? No, it’s not, because sentiment doesn’t define truth. Your feelings toward Catholicism do not define the reality of its tenets. Whether or not you believe in it does not alter it’s veracity. You may struggle with belief (as did St. Peter) but you are not teaching your children something that you know to be false. You are teaching them something that you are not sure of, because you believe it is the right thing to do. Your doubts do not make Catholicism a lie.
“Is it wrong of me to want them to have (even a false) sense of security and to experience the idea that there is a God who loves them unconditionally?” No, it would be wrong to deprive them of the knowledge of a God who loves them unconditionally. Back to Pascal’s wager, one could equally argue that not raising them in the faith would be a false sense of security.
Like you and every other human being in the world, your children have a desire for God. (Your posts are very indicative of your desire for him!) We are, by our very nature, religious beings with a built-in desire for God. If you can help them to fill this void, fill this very basic human need, then you are doing the right thing.
If you still need convincing about moving forward despite doubt, maybe this will help. Mother Teresa of Calcutta gave up her entire life to care for the poorest of the poor. She’d care for each person as though they were Christ himself. She once wrote “I am a pencil in the hand of God writing a love letter to the world." It wasn’t until after her death when some of her personal private letters were published
that people discovered that she suffered from doubt and a complete lack of spiritual consolation for the ENTIRE LENGTH of her missionary work. Despite this, she chose to give her life to Christ anyways, doing tasks in His name that others (and she herself!) would not have done for a million dollars. She wrote: "And how much more ugly could he make himself than a badly diseased leper? And yet it is he. We must know it. As I know that two and two make four, I must know that it is Jesus in that person.” If she had not chosen to believe and live out the faith she no longer felt, then millions of people would have felt the loss. Instead, she is a saint who touched the lives of millions of people, and her legacy lives on. Honestly, I think she should be dubbed patron saint of those who suffer from doubts
She is certainly an inspiration to me!I hope this helps in some way. Please do not give up on your own journey of faith! If you have any specific issues that you are struggling with, feel free to ask away if it helps. This is a great community of believers who are also seeking answers to faith questions. God bless you.
S
sweetpetunia
Guest
I cannot second this strongly enough!
T
TheRealJuliane
Guest
And I cannot
:clapping::clapping::clapping::bowdown: :bowdown:
Your posts strongly enough!!!
Thank you. A great example of both charity and content in your responses to the OP.
K
kib
Guest
I only read your original post but this seems like a curious situation. Truth should be valued above feelings in this situation. You say that you value so many things the church offers but you don’t believe it is true. That is intellectual dishonesty that a scientifically minded person shouldn’t tolerate. Warm fuzzy feelings trump truth? Or is it that you seek lies which lead to a greater truth? Either way that, to me, is intolerable intellectual dodgery. What is the source of your appreciation for the things you value in the Church? Are these same values available elsewhere? If they are available elsewhere why are you seeking them in the Catholic Church? If they are not, why do you value lies? Lies pursue for the sake of a greater truth are still lies. What will happen when your children find out that you don’t believe in God?
The Catholic Church has an absolutely incredible intellectual tradition that is as solid as the day is long. Have you read any of the writings of Thomas Aquinas? Peter Kreeft is a very accessible philosopher and has written many valuable books that you may want to read. The inconsistency in your post and your attitude toward this situation seems to indicate to me that you haven’t thought this through.
I hope that doesn’t sound very rude, it truly was not meant to be. Caritas in Veritate.
Much peace.
The Catholic Church has an absolutely incredible intellectual tradition that is as solid as the day is long. Have you read any of the writings of Thomas Aquinas? Peter Kreeft is a very accessible philosopher and has written many valuable books that you may want to read. The inconsistency in your post and your attitude toward this situation seems to indicate to me that you haven’t thought this through.
I hope that doesn’t sound very rude, it truly was not meant to be. Caritas in Veritate.
Much peace.
K
kib
Guest
Lies create a false sense of security. The bottom will fall out of this when your children find out you never believed. If God is not real, there is not security because the things you value in the church have absolutely no meaning: example- caring for others, feeding the poor, etc.
If there is a God and he is the God of Abraham, he does care about the way He is worshiped. This can be seen int he Old Testament very clearly. “He probably just wants us to be good people”- What is “good”? This must be defined and for “good” to be defined, God must have a say, for He is Goodness. You should research the Natural Law.
If God is not real the Love you feel for your mother and father, the love you have for your children- it is all essentially meaningless. It is nothing more than a chemical reaction in your brain which serves to perpetuate our species. However, if God is real, love has a very real meaning, which you imply it does.
This is a truly great thing! If you have found no proof but you see the transcendental goodness and value in things found in our Church- you should look into it more! There is SO much proof, seek it out! Benjamin Wiker, Scott Hahn, Peter Kreeft and Ronald Tacelli, and so many more have written books in plain language giving strong, reasoned, logical proof for the existence of not only a creator God, but the God we in the Catholic Church worship and love! He is the source of the love you have for your children which makes you want to raise them as good, caring and loving people!
I haven’t had to explain away anything, really. There is sound, well reasoned proof for the existence of the God of Abraham. I am a scientifically minded, technical person. I love God, I believe in him. I was once a non-believer and I read books by brilliant people who have given solid evidence for my belief. I have also encountered the true and living God, despite my skepticism. I have periods where I feel a deep dryness, as if here were not there. It is in these moments that I rely on the mind and heart he gave me.
Much peace- I will pray for you today.
J
JackieMom
Guest
Yes, please share. If there is a book out there that rings true and can help me have faith, I want to read it!
K
kib
Guest
Happy to recommend!
In no particular order…
Apologetics: A Philosophical Defense and Explanation of the Catholic Religion- Msgr. Paul J. Glenn
Mere Christianity- CS Lewis
Because God is Real- Peter Kreeft
Handbook of Christian Apologetics OR Handbook of Catholic Apologetics- Peter Kreeft & Ronald Tacelli
The Godless Delusion: A Catholic Challenge to Modern Atheism- Patrick Madrid & Kenneth Hensley
Answering the New Atheism: Dismantling Dawkins’ Case Against God- Scott Hahn & Benjamin Wiker
The Catechism of the Catholic Church
Summa Theologica- Saint Thomas Aquinas (this is absolutely massive and I’ve only read a fraction of it. It is great though and I have learned so much.)
Not specifically about proving the existence of God but were instrumental in my formation.
10 Books that Screwed Up the World- Benjamin Wiker
Christianity and the Crisis of Cultures- Pope Benedict XVI
A Refutation of Moral Relativism- Peter Kreeft
Crossing the Threshold of Hope- Pope JP II
Anything by GK Chesterton
Anything by CS Lewis
Perhaps someone who has read more extensively can recommend more?
Also, pray to God even when you feel foolish and think he isn’t there. Consider the source of your moral beliefs- where did this come from, is it true and does morality actually mean something/ anything at all.
God bless and good luck!
In no particular order…
Apologetics: A Philosophical Defense and Explanation of the Catholic Religion- Msgr. Paul J. Glenn
Mere Christianity- CS Lewis
Because God is Real- Peter Kreeft
Handbook of Christian Apologetics OR Handbook of Catholic Apologetics- Peter Kreeft & Ronald Tacelli
The Godless Delusion: A Catholic Challenge to Modern Atheism- Patrick Madrid & Kenneth Hensley
Answering the New Atheism: Dismantling Dawkins’ Case Against God- Scott Hahn & Benjamin Wiker
The Catechism of the Catholic Church
Summa Theologica- Saint Thomas Aquinas (this is absolutely massive and I’ve only read a fraction of it. It is great though and I have learned so much.)
Not specifically about proving the existence of God but were instrumental in my formation.
10 Books that Screwed Up the World- Benjamin Wiker
Christianity and the Crisis of Cultures- Pope Benedict XVI
A Refutation of Moral Relativism- Peter Kreeft
Crossing the Threshold of Hope- Pope JP II
Anything by GK Chesterton
Anything by CS Lewis
Perhaps someone who has read more extensively can recommend more?
Also, pray to God even when you feel foolish and think he isn’t there. Consider the source of your moral beliefs- where did this come from, is it true and does morality actually mean something/ anything at all.
God bless and good luck!
C
Cristiano
Guest
For a busy mother listening to some mp3 files could be easier than reading books. If that is your case then Peter Kreeft, the same author mentioned in the list of books can be heard at peterkreeft.com/audio.htm
K
kib
Guest
Great idea, Cristiano.
Here is a link to more Catholic Audio- there is a section on Atheism:
Sonitus Sanctus
Here is a link to more Catholic Audio- there is a section on Atheism:
Sonitus Sanctus
L
Luvtosew
Guest
Your will have to become like your children and grow in grace with them. God is spirit and we worship in spirit and heart, not in mind. God brought you here.
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