Raising Hands during Mass

[robertaf]

I suppose we must agree to disagree.

I cannot suppose what Jesus likes or doesn’t like. I know what He commanded. That is to show Love for one another.

I also know we are not to enter into vain arguments that cause strife among the Body.

Frankly, I don’t notice how other folks hold their hands in Mass. I don’t really care. I have a hard enough time taking care of my own Spiritual life to worry about how other folks work out their salvation.

The older I get, the the closer I get to facing the Lord, the less critical I get of ofher folks.

The one thing surviving cancer has taught me is not to sweat the small stuff.

So let us disagree in a Peaceful way.
My Blessings to you.

 

[netmilsmom]

robertaf:

So let us disagree in a Peaceful way.
My Blessings to you.

Amen!
And all God’s and Our Lady’s blessing on you as well!
Good night.

 

[Primitive]

People raising their hands is a distraction and therefore interrupts the prayer of the faithful.
Also, it looks goofy…what are we trying to do at this point “catch” the graces of god or something???
Perhaps we need to open our hearts more and not our hands.

 

[Lamb100]

You know, I really try so hard to be open and charitable in preparation for receiving our Lord in Holy Communion, so if someone wants to hold my hand during the Lord’s Prayer, even though I’m uncomfortable with it, I do it, and end up not minding too much, and I do like the “lift up your hearts” (had to laugh about the touchdown stuff, though!–let’s lighten up a bit, people…). Have never cared for Passing the Peace, but it does cause me to put aside my selfishness in preparation for Communion (and think about it–at least we don’t kiss in the western rite). But here’s the thing…if everyone were just living and let living, as MariaG said–just putting hands out in case someone wants to hold them, then great. Oh, and I do agree with netil(name removed by moderator) I think it was-I converted to the Faith at age 50 and the way to keep the Youth is not to compete with the entertainment at the Protestant churches–really! It’s to show how Christ is truly present in the Holy Sacrifice–to educate and pray for conversion–we can have Jesus not only in our hearts but in our whole bodies! No matter how bland the music or boring the homilies, the Protestants have nothing on us. We don’t need to compete and shouldn’t try.

OK–here’s my big point. Last week, being all open-minded–I thought I would try to be a good “educator” and set a good example and pray the Lord’s Prayer with my hands folded and eyes closed. Well, the woman next to me reached over and wrenched my hands open–I was literally physically assaulted during Mass! Fortunately I was so stunned that I didn’t do anything (plus I wanted to be in a state of grace so I kept my mouth shut)–and after Mass we actually had a pleasant conversation–but you know–it was just so rude. Really, I believe she honestly thought she was being hospitable–but it was like a liturgical terrorist act! Overnight, I became a traditionalist–and I really didn’t want to be…

::::sigh::::
What to do???

 

[Primitive]

Also, it is absolutely distracting to have a cute girl next to me and try to hold my hand during Mass…
What a sick joke! Why does our own church feel like they need to put added burden on young men during Mass so that they can not pay full attention during Mass to Our Beloved Lord…the last thing I need is a pretty woman holding my hand!!!..What kind of devilish scheme is this that our own church tempts us during the Holy Sacrafice of the Mass?
Get rid of the hand shake of peace!
Get rid of holidng hands at the Our Father!
Young men and women need Jesus at Holy Mass, not temptation…the very words of the Our Father say “lead us not into temptation!” But here we have the Catholic church leading us to temptation??? …

 

[Giannawannabe]

My eyes are hurting after reading this entire thread.

I think it is perfectly clear, after reading all of the arguments, that it is not acceptable to raise your hands during Mass. In addition, hand holding during Mass during the “Our Father” diminishes the sign of peace.

I’ve always tried to fold my hands and keep eyes lowered during the Our Father. However, I have had people (like a poster above) actually grab my hand and force me to assume this posture. In order to not make a scene, I go along with it.

As another thread has discussed. This focus on each other makes Mass a “People-Centered” Mass not a “God-Centered” one.

 

[robertaf]

Giannawannabe:

…
As another thread has discussed. This focus on each other makes Mass a “People-Centered” Mass not a “God-Centered” one.

Just listened to a wonderful Homily on this.
Father was asking HOW Jesus is Present to us at Mass.
He said He is present in the Word, the readings, He is Present in the Body and the Blood, the Holy Eucharist and he is present in the Body of Christ, the Church, each other.

He was pointing out that our Unity during Mass and at all times is really important. He spoke of Jesus prayer for Unity in the Gospel of John. Jesus asked that we might be one as **HE AND THE FATHER ARE ONE. **That is extremely tight. How much more one can you be than how He and the Father are? He went on to say, "that they may be one, so that the world might know that You sent me.

Seems to me when we show our unity in outward ways, (would Jesus refuse to take anyones hand let alone His Fathers?) we aren’t focusing on *people, *we are indeed focusing on Jesus.

Maybe we should look a little deeper and see if many of us aren’t focusing a little too much on ourselves and a little too much on other peoples imagined faults.

 

[Primitive]

robertaf:

Just listened to a wonderful Homily on this.
Father was asking HOW Jesus is Present to us at Mass.
He said He is present in the Word, the readings, He is Present in the Body and the Blood, the Holy Eucharist and he is present in the Body of Christ, the Church, each other.

You have to be VERY careful here…Jesus is “present” in all these things…however, He is TRUELY present in the Most Holy Eucharist more than all the above, in that he is physically and substantially present.
It would be the difference between a letter/phone call from someone and them physically being there.
I am sure someone with some very Orthodox Theology would be better able to explain this.

 

[CantorRick]

Question asked by Dave, (itsjustdave):
“During the Lord’s Prayer?”

Yes, Dave. It is the responsibility and obligation of the Cantor to invite the gathered faithful to enter into their participatory effort.

This invitation is a gesture with the head (nod), open expression on the face and the arms raised for the start queue. All three are the accepted methodology and the retention of the arms in the Orans position through the prayer, especially if sung or chanted, reduces the movement and helps keep the focus on the prayer as opposed to the people.
God bless.
CantorRick
p.s. at some point i will learn how to insert quotes, but not today.

 

[Giannawannabe]

robertaf:

Just listened to a wonderful Homily on this.
Father was asking HOW Jesus is Present to us at Mass.
He said He is present in the Word, the readings, He is Present in the Body and the Blood, the Holy Eucharist and he is present in the Body of Christ, the Church, each other.

Giannawannabe:
Yes. He is in all of those places. However, we go to Mass to participate in the Holy Eucharist. The sacrifice of the Mass is why we’re there. We can pay attention to each other after Mass during donuts and coffee.

robertaf:
He was pointing out that our Unity during Mass and at all times is really important. He spoke of Jesus prayer for Unity in the Gospel of John. Jesus asked that we might be one as **HE AND THE FATHER ARE ONE. **That is extremely tight. How much more one can you be than how He and the Father are? He went on to say, "that they may be one, so that the world might know that You sent me.

Seems to me when we show our unity in outward ways, (would Jesus refuse to take anyones hand let alone His Fathers?) we aren’t focusing on *people, *we are indeed focusing on Jesus.

Giannawannabe:
When I attend Mass at the more EWTN churches, I find that I am focusing way more of my attention on Jesus than when everyone is holding hands and raising their hands over their heads. I think the reason these types of gestures are inappropriate is that we lose our focus on Jesus. Again, we can focus on each other after Mass, before Mass, whenever. During Mass, we should be there just for Jesus.

robertaf:
Maybe we should look a little deeper and see if many of us aren’t focusing a little too much on ourselves and a little too much on other peoples imagined faults.

Giannawannabe:
I don’t think raising hands overhead or holding hands during The Our Father are faults. I just think the vast majority of people really and truly do NOT understand what’s going on at Mass. Since they don’t understand what’s going on, they feel like they’re participating more if they perform these gestures. Wow, if everyone knew exactly what was going on during the Consecration, there would be head bowing and silence.
Likewise, I don’t think people who decline to hold hands, etc. should be criticized. I have heard people being very nasty about some people at our church when they choose not to participate in holding hands, etc.(i.e. they think they’re better than everyone, they think they’re holier than thou, etc)Besides, IMHO, this hand holding, arm raising stuff is just a big show. Other than Mass, most of the people that act like this at Mass wouldn’t say “hello” to me if I ran into them in the grocery store.

 

[netmilsmom]

Giannawannabe:

Giannawannabe:
I don’t think raising hands overhead or holding hands during The Our Father are faults. I just think the vast majority of people really and truly do NOT understand what’s going on at Mass. Since they don’t understand what’s going on, they feel like they’re participating more if they perform these gestures. Wow, if everyone knew exactly what was going on during the Consecration, there would be head bowing and silence.
Likewise, I don’t think people who decline to hold hands, etc. should be criticized. I have heard people being very nasty about some people at our church when they choose not to participate in holding hands, etc.(i.e. they think they’re better than everyone, they think they’re holier than thou, etc)Besides, IMHO, this hand holding, arm raising stuff is just a big show. Other than Mass, most of the people that act like this at Mass wouldn’t say “hello” to me if I ran into them in the grocery store.

You are very wise.
I have always said that if Our Lord was standing on the Altar, body and soul, would we be focusing on the Community?
I don’t think so.

Good point about the Grocery Store. Geez, get in their way in the parking lot and see how much “Community” they show.
(not in my parish of course! You know!)

 

[robertaf]

With all love and respect, please, please do not say we don’t understand what is going on at the Consecration or that we are putting on a show. That is very hurtful and insulting. You know nothing about me, my training and understanding of the Mass or of my spiritual life.

I would never insult you or anyone who has a different way of adoring our Lord that way. I wouldn’t presume to know what is in your heart or in your mind.

 

[netmilsmom]

robertaf:

I would never insult you or anyone who has a different way of adoring our Lord that way. I wouldn’t presume to know what is in your heart or in your mind.

Robert, Dear friend, you just did…
" robertaf:
Maybe we should look a little deeper and see if many of us aren’t focusing a little too much on ourselves and a little too much on other peoples imagined faults."

Like I said to you before, put yourself into the other person’s place. The people here are not personally insulting you. They are stating each one’s opinion. Like you have just done. Let me show you how someone from the other point of view would read this.

“You, who don’t like having no other options but to worship in a liturgy with modern innovations, should get used to the idea. Although you want a traditional liturgy but are not offered it, you are focusing too much on your own comfort (selfish). It is not that you don’t like the motions that people inflict to this liturgy, but rather you are blaming individuals and contriving that they are bad people. (not Christian of you, where is your spirituality?)”

Both sides do this, it’s not just you or me.

Here is something for you to ponder…
Lets say for the next 20 years you can go to your kind of mass. Then one day people begin laying prostrate on the floor. You can see a mass the way you like it every day on EWTN but not at your church nor any around you. When you state that you like the old way, you are belittled and made light of. You say it’s not right and they say, laying prostrate is an ancient prayer posture. Everyone else is doing it, you then feel out of place if you don’t. People say, well if you don’t want to than don’t, but you no longer feel like part of the community.
Wouldn’t you long for a more Charismatic Mass?

Wouldn’t it be better to have both?
We aren’t offered what we want.

See where we are???

 

[Giannawannabe]

robertaf:

With all love and respect, please, please do not say we don’t understand what is going on at the Consecration or that we are putting on a show. That is very hurtful and insulting. You know nothing about me, my training and understanding of the Mass or of my spiritual life.

I would never insult you or anyone who has a different way of adoring our Lord that way. I wouldn’t presume to know what is in your heart or in your mind.

Oh boy. I knew as soon as I hit the “submit message” button, that my post may have sounded insulting to you robertaf.
I did not mean “you” didn’t understand what was going on at Mass. I meant “most” people don’t. Up until recently (about 6-7 years now), I didn’t fully comprehend that Jesus was fully present in the Holy Eucharist—Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity. Not until I began teaching my own children did I understand it. From talking to other Catholics in my Parish and elsewhere, it is VERY CLEAR that most Catholics sitting in pews today—especially at non-EWTN type Masses-----have no clue what is happening.

Just a little story: A few months ago, there was a mother and her 3 boys sitting behind me at Mass. They talked constantly, the mother threatened spankings, and at one point yanked one kid out of Mass for awhile. This was done all way through Mass, including at the Consecration. She kept telling her one son to pay attention because he was going to make his First Communion “next week”. At the end of Mass, she told him to “kneel on one knee” to the “big Cross with Jesus hanging on it”. I could kick myself for not saying something to her at that moment. However, I didn’t know how to do it charitably while we were still in church. I say a prayer for them every time I think of it.

I’m sorry if you thought I was insulting you robertaf. I’ve read many of your posts and know that you are a very kind and spiritual person. I was just trying to articulate why these distracting arm raising and hand holding innovations are just not conducive to a reverent and respectful attitude towards Our Lord in the Blessed Sacrament.

 

[robertaf]

netmil(name removed by moderator):

Robert, Dear friend, you just did…
" robertaf:
Maybe we should look a little deeper and see if many of us aren’t focusing a little too much on ourselves and a little too much on other peoples imagined faults."

I am not pointing fingers at folks without including all of us.

I would never belittle you for liking the old way. I do not think laying prostrate at a usual Catholic Mass is really appropriate. I have seen this at Charismatic Masses at Conferences, not during Mass but afterwards. However, at a Charismatic Mass, other Charisms are in operation and normal. Raising hands in the Oran style or holding hands is so common and has been for so many years, I do not even think about it much. In the ParishesI have been associated with, it was common at Sunday Masses as well, accepted as the norm for some folks and not really noticed.

By the way, I am a Pre Vatican II convert, heading towards 69 yrs old so have a bit of time in the Church. I would guess if I gave you a little of my background, you would know I understand quite a lot more than you might think I do.

My point is, I think it is horribly wrong to pass judgement on any Brother or Sister. We are all guilty of Spiritual Pride. That is a fact, we all tend to want our own way. We all think we know what is best. I know I must continually repent for this sin and we have had to since Adam and Eve. It is our nature.

It is really funny you mention the EWTN Masses. They are, indeed wonderful. Isn’t great that we have this Catholic Station and Mother Angelica, herself a Charismatic Catholic, who ties the Charismatic Renewal together with the older Traditional.

 

[netmilsmom]

robertaf:

I am not pointing fingers at folks without including all of us.

I would never belittle you for liking the old way. I do not think laying prostrate at a usual Catholic Mass is really appropriate. I have seen this at Charismatic Masses at Conferences, not during Mass but afterwards. However, at a Charismatic Mass, other Charisms are in operation and normal. Raising hands in the Oran style or holding hands is so common and has been for so many years, I do not even think about it much. In the ParishesI have been associated with, it was common at Sunday Masses as well, accepted as the norm for some folks and not really noticed.

By the way, I am a Pre Vatican II convert, heading towards 69 yrs old so have a bit of time in the Church. I would guess if I gave you a little of my background, you would know I understand quite a lot more than you might think I do.

My point is, I think it is horribly wrong to pass judgement on any Brother or Sister. We are all guilty of Spiritual Pride. That is a fact, we all tend to want our own way. We all think we know what is best. I know I must continually repent for this sin and we have had to since Adam and Eve. It is our nature.

It is really funny you mention the EWTN Masses. They are, indeed wonderful. Isn’t great that we have this Catholic Station and Mother Angelica, herself a Charismatic Catholic, who ties the Charismatic Renewal together with the older Traditional.

Please note what I highlighted.
I don’t think the Orans is appropriate, either.
And as for passing judgement on a brother or sister, I will reiterate, this is not about the person, it’s about the posture.

Mother Angelica, although she proclaims that her order runs Charismatic, runs her network and her website from a traditional point of view. When was the last time you saw a Charismatic Mass on EWTN. She says Charismatic the way that people in Steubenville do, with a one for one with the traditional. In many ways, some people who put innovations in think that they are conservative. Hmmmm.
And the problem lies there, we have Charistmatic Masses presented to us and NO traditional. You cannot say the same. Give us both and I have no problem.

Robert, that’s great that you are 69 and a convert. I’m no spring chicken myself, but the difference is that being Catholic, is me. I am Christian of course! but having priests and a Bishop in my family, we didn’t grow up just Christian, we grew up Catholic/Christian. It’s in my blood and soul. We lived and breathed it. From saying the Angelus at noon to giving up a stubbed toe to the Poor Souls in Purgatory, we LIVED it.
If I wanted to be something else, there are other religions offering the Community. I want to be Catholic. Old style, bended knee Catholic. The Charismatics took my old parish and told me to get used to it. NO ONE should have that happen.

You wouldn’t like it if it happened to you.

 

[robertaf]

Greetings Netmi(name removed by moderator),

I am so very sorry this has happened to you. I can see why you take this so personally and if you will allow me, I will apologize for the Charismatics and ask your forgiveness. This should never happen.

By the way, my name is Roberta not Robert. I am a woman and I am married to a 75 yr old pure Italian man from Rochester, NY. We celebrated our 50th anniversary this past February. I converted just prior to or wedding.

I assure you, I know how a cradle Catholic feels. I know how an Italian one feels, particularly.

I can tell you, it is not the teaching of Charismatics to be so unfeeling toward our Brothers and Sisters in the Faith.

MMMmmm, I go back a long way with Mother Angelica, back to when she and I prayed together in tongues at a Charismatic Conference where she was a main speaker. Back in those days, she had the cream of the crop of Charismatic speakers on the tv show. She still does, if you check out her programming. Check out www.scrc.org the website for our Charismatic Conference, and you will see Fr. Benedict Groeschel, CFR as one of the speakers among many others.

I can see you have deep feelings, reasons for your posts. I do understand your comments.

I will keep you in prayer, offer my Holy Communions for you that you will find peace within your Parish Community.

 

[netmilsmom]

Lamb100:

Oh, and I do agree with netil(name removed by moderator) I think it was-I converted to the Faith at age 50 and the way to keep the Youth is not to compete with the entertainment at the Protestant churches–really! It’s to show how Christ is truly present in the Holy Sacrifice–to educate and pray for conversion–we can have Jesus not only in our hearts but in our whole bodies! No matter how bland the music or boring the homilies, the Protestants have nothing on us. We don’t need to compete and shouldn’t try.

Thank you kindly!
I always say to my Protestant Hubby. I can’t understand why any Catholic church wants to emulate the Protestants. They do it so much Protestantism so much better than we do.

I’m so sorry.
It’s tough to be pious sometimes, in our own way.

 

[netmilsmom]

robertaf:

Greetings Netmi(name removed by moderator),

I am so very sorry this has happened to you. I can see why you take this so personally and if you will allow me, I will apologize for the Charismatics and ask your forgiveness. This should never happen.

By the way, my name is Roberta not Robert. I am a woman and I am married to a 75 yr old pure Italian man from Rochester, NY. We celebrated our 50th anniversary this past February. I converted just prior to or wedding.

I assure you, I know how a cradle Catholic feels. I know how an Italian one feels, particularly.

I can tell you, it is not the teaching of Charismatics to be so unfeeling toward our Brothers and Sisters in the Faith.

MMMmmm, I go back a long way with Mother Angelica, back to when she and I prayed together in tongues at a Charismatic Conference where she was a main speaker. Back in those days, she had the cream of the crop of Charismatic speakers on the tv show. She still does, if you check out her programming. Check out www.scrc.org the website for our Charismatic Conference, and you will see Fr. Benedict Groeschel, CFR as one of the speakers among many others.

I can see you have deep feelings, reasons for your posts. I do understand your comments.

I will keep you in prayer, offer my Holy Communions for you that you will find peace within your Parish Community.

 

[netmilsmom]

robertaf:

Greetings Netmi(name removed by moderator),

I am so very sorry this has happened to you. I can see why you take this so personally and if you will allow me, I will apologize for the Charismatics and ask your forgiveness. This should never happen.

By the way, my name is Roberta not Robert. I am a woman and I am married to a 75 yr old pure Italian man from Rochester, NY. We celebrated our 50th anniversary this past February. I converted just prior to or wedding.

I assure you, I know how a cradle Catholic feels. I know how an Italian one feels, particularly.

I can tell you, it is not the teaching of Charismatics to be so unfeeling toward our Brothers and Sisters in the Faith.

MMMmmm, I go back a long way with Mother Angelica, back to when she and I prayed together in tongues at a Charismatic Conference where she was a main speaker. Back in those days, she had the cream of the crop of Charismatic speakers on the tv show. She still does, if you check out her programming. Check out www.scrc.org the website for our Charismatic Conference, and you will see Fr. Benedict Groeschel, CFR as one of the speakers among many others.

I can see you have deep feelings, reasons for your posts. I do understand your comments.

I will keep you in prayer, offer my Holy Communions for you that you will find peace within your Parish Community.

I apologize Roberta, for mistaking you for a man. I can see how you easily slipped into the Charismatic movement in that you were not born Catholic.
I do have to say though that being a Charismatic was a the thing to do way back. It was very popular and trendy. It’s how you have taken over the liturgy with innovations and put the idea into our CCD classes
.
Now things are changing because people are seeing that this is the kind of celebration they can get anywhere. The numbers are dropping in Steubenville among the students and they are finding the Charismatic services not quite as well attended as the traditional.
Even Mother Angelica seems to have taken on a traditional role. She does not have Charismatic masses. Speakers are fine but the liturgy is what is important to Catholics. She seems to have swung the other way.
Tomorrow is our Corpus Christi celebration. Full regalia.
I will remember you in my prayers as well!