Raising hands in mass

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Some here are proving why changing the liturgy is a problem.
Some people that support it, also support inclussive language and women priestess. Most liberals I know love this kind of bunk, because it trys to limit the role of the priest and the authority of the church.

So why hold hands. What meaning does it have?

Instead of looking for a sense of community, why not strive for real community? It starts with respecting the authority of the magisterium.
 
Dear LuthCath,
Hey, I hear you. I had to address this at work recently. I decided to nicely say to people thanks, but no thanks, when they were bestowing some unwelcome touching on me. Us non-touchers have a right to our space, and people have no right to touch another person. A little cultural awareness is a good thing, and like I said, better safe than sorry in the touching dept. That means, hands off unless you’ve gotten the green light!
 
4 marks:
Our priest tweaks the liturgy here and there. I don’t find this a distraction. It helps make the experience more meaningful. He adds a Hail Mary at the conclusion of every Lord Hear Our Prayer. No gender exclusive language is used. It is always sisters first, brothers second. As he puts it, ladies before gentlemen. All scripture readings and songs are altered to reflect this.
Let me get this straight, your Priest alters scripture readings to suit a political “gender inclusive” attitude? What, the words of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ are inadequate? How…human.

Just how far would the liturgy have to be “tweaked” in order for you to be bothered? You state:
I, for one, rejoice that they are in Church and are not at home on a Sunday morning praying to Saint Mattress.
Yet I wonder what is your basis for this conclusion? Seemingly, all that appears to matter is that the “experience is more meaningful” and that people “Worshp God”. Who are you then, to state that this cannot be done at home on Sunday in the comfort of one’s own bed.
 
Here’s from the Liturgy Questions Section at USCCB
Orans

Many Catholics are in the habit of holding their hands in the “Orans” posture during the Lord’s prayer along with the celebrant. Some do this on their own as a private devotional posture while some congregations make it a general practice for their communities.
Is this practice permissible under the current rubrics, either as a private practice not something adopted by a particular parish as a communal gesture?
No position is prescribed in the present Sacramentary for an assembly gesture during the Lord’s Prayer.
Since no posture is prescribed, it is hard to call anything abussive, just because of our preference.

The GIRM states
  1. The gestures and posture of the priest, the deacon, and the ministers, as well as those of the people, ought to contribute to making the entire celebration resplendent with beauty and noble simplicity, so that the true and full meaning of the different parts of the celebration is evident and that the participation of all is fostered.52 Therefore, attention should be paid to what is determined by this General Instruction and the traditional practice of the Roman Rite and to what serves the common spiritual good of the People of God, rather than private inclination or arbitrary choice
43…With a view to a uniformity in gestures and postures during one and the same celebration, the faithful should follow the directions which the deacon, lay minister, or priest gives according to whatever is indicated in the Missal.
 
I don’t get this thinking, if in the Missal there is nothing written for the posture of the faithful then we can do whatever we want. What??:confused:

Then perhaps the altar servers are allowed to do cartwheels in the sanctuary to show their joy! Don’t tell me they can’t or that it would be an abuse since the Missal doesn’t say “don’t do cartwheels in the sanctuary.” :rolleyes:
Anyway, to say that because the Missal is silent on posture then we can do whatever is faulty reasoning based on nothing.
 
Munda cor meum:
Let me get this straight, your Priest alters scripture readings to suit a political “gender inclusive” attitude? What, the words of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ are inadequate? How…human.
When I read the Gospels, I find that a hallmark of Jesus’ public ministry was inclusiveness. He made particular efforts to reach out to women who had been marginalized by a society dominated by men.

Munda cor meumYet I wonder what is your basis for this conclusion? Seemingly said:
Worshipping God can be done anywhere. However, we are drawn together as a Body by the Spirit, and assemble on the Lord’s Day to remember what the Lord has done for us, and to partake of the Bread of Life.
 
My priest always says “sisters and brothers” . I didn’t know that was so bad. I kind of like it. Jesus was rather a revolutionary in his attitudes towards women. Remember that the Jewish culture of the day was rather like the arab culture in it’s attitudes toward women.

Honestly, I don’t know how some of you folks make it through life, with the small things that aggravate you all! I was always taught not to make mountains out of molehills, myself. 🙂
 
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WhiteDove:
My priest always says “sisters and brothers” . I didn’t know that was so bad. I kind of like it. Jesus was rather a revolutionary in his attitudes towards women. Remember that the Jewish culture of the day was rather like the arab culture in it’s attitudes toward women.

Honestly, I don’t know how some of you folks make it through life, with the small things that aggravate you all! I was always taught not to make mountains out of molehills, myself. 🙂
"He who is faithful in a very little is faithful also in much; and he who is dishonest in a very little is dishonest also in much." ~ (Luke 16:10 said by Jesus)

In other words, from my experience those priests and laity who change things in the Sacred Liturgy are usually not just changing “little” things… in getting to know them better it becomes clear they are usually guilty of changing “much”.:nope: It’s the “little” changes that pile up into “much.” Hence, the above scripture quote from Our Lord is true to human nature.:yup:

:amen:
 
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JMJ_Pinoy:
We have joined and raised hands during the Our Father at every Mass I have attended. Then we shake hands and say to each other “Peace Be With You.” Is there anything wrong with this? :confused:
Not unless you think there is.

“Raising holy hands unto the Lord” has been practiced over the many centuries - traditionally in supplication- more lately, in praise.

The High Priest did it inside the Holy of Holies as he annually entered to pronounce the sacred name of God. I have a National Geographic book about Russia where a Russian Orthodox woman is shown keeling on the stone floor of her church - hands raised in supplication and prayer. It’s nothing “new”, and pentecostals and charismatics have no exclusive patent on it.

While I enjoy exchanging the Peace, I do not like to hold hands during prayer - having to scoot down the pew or reach across an aisle - yuck. But, some wish to do it - and will continue to do so.

Am I gonna let it bother me or keep me away from mass ? Of course not - no more than would an off-tune hymn or someone sitting close by, wearing too much perfume…

January 4th + St. Elizabeth Ann Seton +
 
debbie m. said:
"He who is faithful in a very little is faithful also in much; and he who is dishonest in a very little is dishonest also in much." ~ (Luke 16:10 said by Jesus)

In other words, from my experience those priests and laity who change things in the Sacred Liturgy are usually not just changing “little” things… in getting to know them better it becomes clear they are usually guilty of changing “much”.:nope: It’s the “little” changes that pile up into “much.” Hence, the above scripture quote from Our Lord is true to human nature.:yup:

:amen:

LOL, how very ‘Protestant’ of you to pull out one isolated scripture to prove a point! 😃

Proverbs 16:2
All the ways of a man are pure in his own eyes, but the LORD weighs the spirit.
 
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WhiteDove:
LOL, how very ‘Protestant’ of you to pull out one isolated scripture to prove a point! 😃

Proverbs 16:2
All the ways of a man are pure in his own eyes, but the LORD weighs the spirit.
Good try at deflecting and avoiding the point of the scripture quote which I explained. Of course, I agree that we cannot base an entire meaning on one scripture quote, however, we can use one scripture quote to prove a point if it is in the proper context of all of God’s Word and not in contradiction with our Catholic faith…that is Catholic!

Anyway, let’s get back to the reason for this thread and not digress off topic…please…

God bless,
Debbie
 
LOL, anyways, I dislike handholding. But remember my scripture, Debbie!

Proverbs 16:2
All the ways of a man are pure in his own eyes, but the LORD weighs the spirit.
 
A couple of years ago, Zenit published this piece on gestures with reference to the Lord’s Prayer. Some of the general principles it mentions are worth noting.

Blessings,

Gerry

ZENIT - The World Seen From Rome

Code: ZE03111822

Date: 2003-11-18

Holding Hands at the Our Father?

ROME, NOV. 18, 2003 (Zenit.org).- Answered by Father Edward McNamara, professor of liturgy at the Regina Apostolorum Pontifical Athenaeum.

Q: Many say we should not be holding hands in the congregation while reciting the Lord’s Prayer because it is not a community prayer but a prayer to “Our Father.” Local priests say that since the Vatican has not specifically addressed it, then we are free to do as we please: either hold hands or not. What is the true Roman Catholic way in which to recite the Lord’s Prayer during Mass? – T.P., Milford, Maine

A: It is true that there is no prescribed posture for the hands during the Our Father and that, so far at least, neither the Holy See nor the U.S. bishops’ conference has officially addressed it.

The argument from silence is not very strong, however, because while there is no particular difficulty in a couple, family or a small group spontaneously holding hands during the Our Father, a problem arises when the entire assembly is expected or obliged to do so.

The process for introducing any new rite or gesture into the liturgy in a stable or even binding manner is already contemplated in liturgical law. This process entails a two-thirds majority vote in the bishops’ conference and the go-ahead from the Holy See before any change may take effect.

Thus, if neither the bishops’ conference nor the Holy See has seen fit to prescribe any posture for the recitation of the Our Father, it hardly behooves any lesser authority to impose a novel gesture not required by liturgical law and expect the faithful to follow their decrees.

While there are no directions as to the posture of the faithful, the rubrics clearly direct the priest and any concelebrants to pray the Our Father with hands extended – so they at least should not hold hands.

One could argue that holding hands expresses the family union of the Church. But our singing or reciting the prayer in unison already expresses this element.

The act of holding hands usually emphasizes group or personal unity from the human or physical point of view and is thus more typical of the spontaneity of small groups. Hence it does not always transfer well into the context of larger gatherings where some people feel uncomfortable and a bit imposed upon when doing so.

The use of this practice during the Our Father could detract and distract from the prayer’s God-directed sense of adoration and petition, as explained in Nos. 2777-2865 of the Catechism of the Catholic Church, in favor of a more horizontal and merely human meaning.

For all of these reasons, no one should have any qualms about not participating in this gesture if disinclined to do so. They will be simply following the universal customs of the Church, and should not be accused of being a cause of disharmony.

A different case is the practice in which some people adopt the “orantes” posture during the Our Father, praying like the priest, with hands extended.

In some countries, Italy, for example, the Holy See has granted the bishops’ request to allow anyone who wishes to adopt this posture during the Our Father. Usually about a third to one-half of the assembled faithful choose to do so.

Despite appearances, this gesture is not, strictly speaking, a case of the laity trying to usurp priestly functions.

The Our Father is the prayer of the entire assembly and not a priestly or presidential prayer. In fact, it is perhaps the only case when the rubrics direct the priest to pray with arms extended in a prayer that he does not say alone or only with other priests. Therefore, in the case of the Our Father, the orantes posture expresses the prayer directed to God by his children.

The U.S. bishops’ conference debated a proposal by some bishops to allow the use of the orantes posture while discussing the “American Adaptations to the General Instruction to the Roman Missal” last year. Some bishops even argued that it was the best way of ridding the country of holding hands. The proposal failed to garner the required two-thirds majority of votes, however, and was dropped from the agenda.

 
I am just absolutely amazed at everyone’s reaction to this topic.

I am off to another topic and I wish that I had not even responded to this at all.

God Bless all of you, whether you are holding hands during mass or not.
 
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betra2000:
I am just absolutely amazed at everyone’s reaction to this topic.

I am off to another topic and I wish that I had not even responded to this at all.

God Bless all of you, whether you are holding hands during mass or not.
Dear Betra,
I suspect that you aren’t really surprised, unless you’ve been living in a cave, with no internet access, which I doubt. You don’t live in N Calif, do you? :getholy:
 
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WhiteDove:
As far as I’m concerned, it’s not a life or death issue. The church is facing much greater problems than this one. For instance, what about the fact that no one takes the sacraments seriously anymore? How many people are going for communion without having gone to confession? How many folks have very serious differences with Church teaching, but are trying to change the Church from within? What about the lack of vocations, the priest shortage, etc? And don’t you dare say that it all starts with handholding, I won’t buy that one for a milisecond.

Probably the deep feelings over this issue are only a manifestation over bigger ones, IMO.
I agree, Dove. How about church closings to add to the list. Personally, as an OLD cradle Catholic, I haven’t gotten used to the prayer after the Our Father. "For thine is the kingdom, the power, etc, yet. I reminds me of an old Mennonite minister that used to speak at school years ago. He would say the prayer, hold his hands up in the air, and close his eyes, and wail. I hope we never have to do that. God bless.
 
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WhiteDove:
LOL, anyways, I dislike handholding. But remember my scripture, Debbie!

Proverbs 16:2
All the ways of a man are pure in his own eyes, but the LORD weighs the spirit.
I’m with you. Before returning to the Faith, I went to a small church where everyone in the congregation hugged one another. I absolutely hated it. A handshake will do. My personal body space is important to me.

I also agree that we sometimes make mountains out of mole hills. I read an editorial in the paper tonight by a Catholic layperson who blasted out the Archbishop of a neighboring diocese for the decision to close and merge some churches. The man has to do what he has to do. I wish people would give the poor guy a break already.
 
I went to my wifes friends wedding here on Long Island NY and at the wedding, and I have been attending Mass my entire life, the people raised their hands during the Our Father. I did not and prayed as I always did. After the ceremony and at the reception, her sister in law started making fun and saying “Why the heck was everybody doing the heil Hitler salute at the church, I never saw that in my entire life”. Needless to say that did not go over with my wifes friend, who wanted to think that everything at her ceremony was perfect. But it shocked me and was freaky, but the church was a real modern looking church, probably built in the last 15 years, and maybe they want to do something different, but not for me and my family, like to just reflect during our lords prayer.
 
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