Raising hands in mass

[katherine2]

rcwhiteh:

A couple of observations:

First of all, raising hands in the “Orans” position during the Our Father may be controversial for Roman Catholics, but it’s standard practice for Byzantines - and we’re just as Catholic as you are. If the GIRM doesn’t specifically say you can’t do it, I think you need to look at the larger Catholic community and see if any other sui juris church is doing it; if the answer is yes, then I think you’re probably pretty safe to do it. The important thing is to show proper piety and respect for the Lord.

Secondly (but by the same token), Byzantines don’t tend to hold hands during the Our Father, and I think if you tried to do it, you’d get some very odd looks. You might do it with other members of your immediate family, but reaching for a stranger’s hand is probably verboten. It’s probably an issue of custom.

I have to offer that in my one experience in a Melkite church, early in the Liturgy, a woman I barely knew, upon seeingme, came over to me with a wide grin and gave me a big bear hug, almost suffocating me in her ample…, well, i don’t need to draw a picture.

Nevertheless, i took no offense. I just understood the Lebanese as more phyiscal in their expression.

 

[debbie_m]

rcwhiteh:

A couple of observations:

First of all, raising hands in the “Orans” position during the Our Father may be controversial for Roman Catholics, but it’s standard practice for Byzantines - and we’re just as Catholic as you are. If the GIRM doesn’t specifically say you can’t do it, I think you need to look at the larger Catholic community and see if any other sui juris church is doing it; if the answer is yes, then I think you’re probably pretty safe to do it. The important thing is to show proper piety and respect for the Lord.

Secondly (but by the same token), Byzantines don’t tend to hold hands during the Our Father, and I think if you tried to do it, you’d get some very odd looks. You might do it with other members of your immediate family, but reaching for a stranger’s hand is probably verboten. It’s probably an issue of custom.

I have to attend a Roman-rite church because there are no Byzantine churches in our area, so I’m used to the Novus Ordo. I’m not criticizing hand-holding, but I’m not endorsing it, either; we do it every Sunday, and it doesn’t really bother me. (I also grew up Southern Baptist; we did it at church every Sunday there, too.)

All that said, I certainly understand why some Romans want to return to the Tridentine Mass. I like the Byzantine liturgies in large part because the congregation feels led in worship; this is something the Novus Ordo Mass gave up.

In reflection, I think there are a number of liturgical abuses that are a bit more deserving of our ire than a common practice of hand-holding. I suspect this is an Americanism; I doubt anyone in, say, Europe is doing it. (At least I didn’t see anyone doing it at the Marketkirche in Wiesbaden.)

There are different rubrics for different rites from what I have read so as they say “when in Rome do as the Romans do.”

God bless,
Debbie

 

[debbie_m]

katherine2:

And holding hands is somehow an UNnatural act?

Of course that’s not what I mean, you know that! Let’s not even go there because I realize how quick you are to pass over the reality you don’t really care what the rubrics say…it’s not really that important…there are more important things to worry about…etc,etc… Hey, that’s fine - not everyone is interested in the Sacred Liturgy.

God bless,
Debbie

 

[cainem]

if people want to do something with their hands why dont they just put their hands together in prayer as we were taught as children?

 

[JKirkLVNV]

debbie m.:

Of course that’s not what I mean, you know that! Let’s not even go there because I realize how quick you are to pass over the reality you don’t really care what the rubrics say…it’s not really that important…there are more important things to worry about…etc,etc… Hey, that’s fine - not everyone is interested in the Sacred Liturgy.

God bless,
Debbie

Debbie: I don’t think anyone can assume that Katherine doesn’t care about the rubrics. I think she said something to the effect that if it is not forbidden, then it’s not forbidden.

 

[Anna_Elizabeth]

debbie m.:

Hi Anna,

I think I agree with you. I don’t know why it seems you didn’t agree with my post though.
God bless,
Debbie

Debbie, I do agree with you! Who knows where these insanities will lead us, if not called to a halt soon?

God bless,

Anna

 

[Anna_Elizabeth]

debbie m.:

Hi Anna,

I think I agree with you. I don’t know why it seems you didn’t agree with my post though.
God bless,
Debbie

Debbie, I do agree with you! Who knows where these insanities will lead us, if not called to a halt soon?

God bless you, too,

Anna

 

[debbie_m]

Anna Elizabeth:

Debbie, I do agree with you! Who knows where these insanities will lead us, if not called to a halt soon?

God bless,

Anna

Hi Anna,

Got it! Thanks for your reply.

Yes, things will just get worse and worse gradually if we don’t address them…here’s a good example and something the world can relate to…Every tidal wave (aka tsunami) starts with a ripple in the water…

God bless,

Debbie

 

[katherine2]

Anna Elizabeth:

Debbie, I do agree with you! Who knows where these insanities will lead us, if not called to a halt soon?

Anna

I agree. If these things are not stopped immediately, parishioners might actually start seeing each other as brothers and sisters in Christ.

 

[dmelosi]

katherine2:

I agree. If these things are not stopped immediately, parishioners might actually start seeing each other as brothers and sisters in Christ.

I think you are way off base with this comment. I think that is far a few between where a fellow parishioner does not see each other as brothers and sisters in Christ.

 

[TheGarg]

**HAND HOLDING AND HAND RAISING WERE REJECTED WHEN SUBMITTED FOR APPROVAL TO THE HOLY SEE in the 90’s. **

Hand holding in general? Hand holding as an official part of the mass[required]? What was the context fo the “submittal”? Can you provide links to this “submittal” and/or the “reply” from the Holy See?
Sorry, I am gonna need more than just your word for it…

Peace of the Lord be with you!

 

[misericordie]

dmelosi:

Hello,
I understand that at mass it is not proper to raise or hold hands during the Our Father.

What are the reasons?

If someone is doing so, would you suggest explaining to them why it is not proper?

Thanks,
Dave

It MIMICS the priest and the LAITY are NOT ORDAINED PRIESTS.

 

[misericordie]

betra2000:

At the Church that I go to, we all hold hands during the “Our Father”. I actually love it and nobody in our Church has ever said anything negative about it. I am surprised by your reaction to this. We feel closer to our neighbor and none of us feel “silly” about it at all.

We also raise our hands when we “lift our hearts” to the Lord. It is something that has always been done.

To each his own I guess.

This is NOT recomended by THE VATICAN AND BISHOPS. We go to Mass to worship God not ourselves.

 

[EddieArent]

Hands thing has beaten to death. I stand against it. Anyway.

So, here’s something new. When praying the Our Father, can we get more people to look UP to Heaven? We’re addressing the prayer to our creator. Might as well look up to Him.

 

[katherine2]

misericordie:

It MIMICS the priest and the LAITY are NOT ORDAINED PRIESTS.

you assume it is done to mimic the priest. what is your source for that?

 

[dmelosi]

I had 2 questions I had when I originally posted this on raising hands.

#1 Is there an official church teaching and what was it.

#2 How to approach people if it is wrong.

I too had heard that this was a protestant practice that we had adopted, but answered this by saying that this practice was actually started by monks. Another thing I have heard is that it is imitating the priest. That does have some merit in my mind if it is just a gesture, but like any prayer in the mass, if it is done from the heart, then there is no imitation.

There have been some good reference articles as to why not to and it sure seems that the church is against it, but the Archbishop of Denver says it is ok. (there is a link in a previous thread The ‘Our Father’: Appropriate Gestures for Prayer)

My feeling on this is;

One reason that I believe so strongly in the Catholic faith is that it is very slow to change from traditional ways and will not readily adapt to modern ways because of public opinion. Keep the string to Christ and his teachings strong.

Why try to change something on your own instead of the church changing it?

If there is the possibility of error in this case, why do it?

And on the other hand, the clearest response from authority is from the Archbishop of Denver.

Personally, I still am not sure about the official ruling, and will not participate in the practice, but will not look at others as if they are doing something wrong…because of the Archbishop’s explanation.

 

[debbie_m]

TheGarg:

Hand holding in general? Hand holding as an official part of the mass[required]? What was the context fo the “submittal”? Can you provide links to this “submittal” and/or the “reply” from the Holy See?
Sorry, I am gonna need more than just your word for it…

Peace of the Lord be with you!

Great! I commend you for not just taking my word for it…I wish more Catholics were interested in reading the Church’s documents and teachings in order to learn more about what Christ gives us through His Holy Church.

Neither hand holding or the orans posture are bad in and of themselves, in fact when I have gone to some small groups many people do these things, but the point here is following the instructions laid down by the Church for the Mass and not taking it upon ourselves to add, change or delete things from the instructions for the Liturgy, simply because we think it is nice and gives us the warm fuzzies… the instructions are put forth by the Holy Spirit for a reason…to bring us closer to God and to be united as ONE, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic CHURCH.

I would also recommend you read the section in the GIRM usccb.org/liturgy/curren…sromanien.shtml and have a look at the rubrics in the Missal (the red printed instructions for the postures of the priest and congregation, etc…) …maybe at your parish. You will notice in the rubrics at the Our Father it states “He extends his hands…the PRIEST…” and at other times when speaking of a common posture for both the priest and congregation it states “ALL.”

Below are two links to documents from Adoremus and a quote from the document.

Here is one document : adoremus.org/1103OransPosture.html
Source of continuing confusion
One source of continuing confusion is this. When the proposed ICEL Sacramentary was sent to the Holy See for approval (after the November 1999 meeting of the US Conference of Catholic Bishops), the BCL posted on its web site a description of the orans posture, saying that this posture would be permitted when the new Sacramentary was approved.

This 1999 BCL comment stated, in part:

No position is prescribed in the present Sacramentary for an assembly gesture during the Lord’s Prayer. While the recently approved revised Sacramentary does provide for the use of the orans gesture by members of the assembly during the Lord’s Prayer, the revised Sacramentary may not be used until it has been confirmed by the Holy See. I might also note that in the course of its discussion of … this question, the Bishops’ Committee on the Liturgy expressed a strong preference for the orans gesture over the holding of hands since the focus of the Lord’s Prayer is a prayer to the Father and not primarily an expression of community and fellowship.

The Sacramentary revision, however, was not only replaced by the new Roman Missal, but it was officially and specifically rejected by the Holy See after the new Missal appeared.

Unfortunately, however, this outdated and misleading comment on the USCCB web site was never removed. It was still there as of October 28, 2003.

At their November 2001 meeting, the bishops discussed “adaptations” to the new Institutio Generalis Missalis Romani (or GIRM) of the new Missal (reported in AB February 2002). The proposal to introduce the orans posture for the people was not included even as an option in the US’ “adaptations” to the GIRM.

Here is the second document: adoremus.org/0903Posture.html
The “Orans” posture
"The bishops actually voted* against *people assuming the “orans” posture for the Lord’s Prayer (this is the posture of the priest), though some liturgists have promoted it strenuously. No gesture at all is specified during the Lord’s Prayer in the GIRM. (Some bishops and liturgists had objected to hand-holding, however, a gesture that originated in Alcoholics Anonymous meetings and was popularized by some charismatic groups.)

Hope this helps.

God bless,
Debbie

 

[katherine2]

Some bishops and liturgists had objected to hand-holding, however, a gesture that originated in Alcoholics Anonymous meetings

right. two people never held hands until AA thought of it.

 

[debbie_m]

katherine2:

right. two people never held hands until AA thought of it.

Hi Katherine2, Somehow I figured you wouldn’t read the whole document…

I’ve pretty much exhausted this thread…the rest of the work has to be left with those who are genuinely interested in learning about the Liturgy.

My work is done here, the seeds have been sown…now I will leave it in the hands of the Holy Spirit!

God bless,
Debbie

 

[katherine2]

debbie m.:

Hi Katherine2, Somehow I figured you wouldn’t read the whole document…

God bless,
Debbie

I read it. i found it unconvincing.