Raising hands in mass

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katherine2:
you assume it is done to mimic the priest. what is your source for that?
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The laity are instructed not to simulate actions of the Priest, but this is in regard to the functions solely limited to a Priest (sacraments, blessings and of course consecration) The laity is not to make the sign of the cross over someone as a Priest does in blessing. There has been much controversy with lay people using blessed oil (a sacramental, not the oil of the sick), because it could be interpreted as simulating the anointing of the sick, but it was never expressly forbidden.

I have never seen a prohibition of the laity praying in the orans position, and even though this was not adopted by the USCCB, the fact that it was considered would indicate that it is allowable.
 
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misericordie:
This is NOT recomended by THE VATICAN AND BISHOPS. We go to Mass to worship God not ourselves.
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Well, I am glad that you made that really clear to me. Now I understand. All this time I thought I was worshiping my Father who is in Heaven. Now I know that it was myself who I was worshiping.

Sorry for the sarcasm, but I just don’t understand your reply. Please send me something that states clearly that the Vatican and Bishops do not recomend this.
 
Just wanted to crawl out from under my rock to say something…
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davy39:
Personally, as an OLD cradle Catholic, I haven’t gotten used to the prayer after the Our Father. "For thine is the kingdom, the power, etc, yet. I reminds me of an old Mennonite minister that used to speak at school years ago.
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Actually, this prayer (“For the kingdom, the power, and the glory are yours, now and forever”) originates from the Didache (newadvent.org/fathers/0714.htm, see Chapter 8). The CCC’s also got some stuff to say about it
(vatican.va/archive/catechism/p4s2.htm, see 2760)
(vatican.va/archive/catechism/p4s2a4.htm, see 2855).

So try to think of the Apostles or early Christians saying this instead of picturing that Mennonite minister.

As for hand-holding and raising, I’m against it. There isn’t much of this at my parish, but it occasionally happens amongst families… As it’s been said, it doesn’t really have a place in the Mass. And as for the orans position, I always give a chuckle… The first homily I heard at the parish I currently attend was on how it was inappropriate for the laity/congregation to assume the orans position (I’ll never forget it, God bless Monsignor) mostly because it symbolizes the priest gathering the prayers of his flock and presenting them to the Lord. Well, it was much better said the first time, but anyway. Unfortunately, a few people were either sleeping or not there when he expounded on this, so a random orans pops up once in a while. However, at the university chapel where I attend during the week this happens a lot. :ehh:

And I realize that apparently it is normative in the Eastern or at least Byzantine rites, but like it was said, we take a slightly different approach to things even though both are Catholic.
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EddieArent:
So, here’s something new. When praying the Our Father, can we get more people to look UP to Heaven? We’re addressing the prayer to our creator. Might as well look up to Him.
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Maybe I’m just weird, but it wouldn’t feel right to look up… I usually bow my head and look down when we say the Our Father. Looking up would feel too aggressive or irreverent, for me at least. :o
 
Holding hands is normative in a lot of parishes during the Our Father. Raising hands in the orans position as well, is part of the liturgical life in other parishes, probably more so in those with a lot of people who have come over from the eastern and byzantine rites.

I don’t think this is something that is really worth fighting over, particularly as its just part of the acculturation of the mass to the people.
 
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JMJ_Pinoy:
We have joined and raised hands during the Our Father at every Mass I have attended. Then we shake hands and say to each other “Peace Be With You.” Is there anything wrong with this?
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We do this in my parish, too, and as a wannabe Catholic who is currently attending RCIA, I don’t have any problem with it. I do agree that sometimes it injects a moment of indecision into the Mass as you try to discern whether or not your neighbors wish to participate. That can be a bit distracting.

But only a bit and only for a moment and then the payoff comes as the congregation sings the most beautiful version of the “Our Father” that I have ever heard! We sing it in “round” fashion, men first, ladies next and it sounds like a choir of angels. Especially the doxology!

I have read all the arguments against the practice but none of them seem very convincing in light of what I have seen and felt and heard in my parish. Singing the “Our Father” this way is one of the highlights of Mass for me and I love it.
In His love,
Rhonda
 
Ohhh is that so, then why do the priests now face the people during mass, the entire purpose of the Latin rite TLM that is was for the priest to have his back and perform various readings at different sides of the altar to worship God (Ie The East, etc). The priest now face us and give us that cute little nod when they walk past us, sort of like they are worshipping the laity and not God.
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misericordie:
This is NOT recomended by THE VATICAN AND BISHOPS. We go to Mass to worship God not ourselves.
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CrusaderNY:
Ohhh is that so, then why do the priests now face the people during mass, the entire purpose of the Latin rite TLM that is was for the priest to have his back and perform various readings at different sides of the altar to worship God
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Why does God need the Bible read to Him? God wrote it: has He forgotten it? :whacky:
 
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Mysty101:
I have never seen a prohibition of the laity praying in the orans position, and even though this was not adopted by the USCCB, the fact that it was considered would indicate that it is allowable.
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This seems to me a reasonable approach.

For those still uncertain about use of the orans in the eastern churches, here’s a little documentation from the Maronite Eparchy of Brooklyn:
**The Lord’s Prayer
**The congregation either recites or sings the Lord’s Prayer, with extended hands. It is placed in the Qurbono, for through it, we ask for bread and forgiveness: “Give us our daily bread and forgive us our trespasses”. The Lord’s Prayer is truly a complete act of contrition. The extending of hands is a sign of supplication and petition for pardon. The following prayer has the same meaning.
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I am one of the people who has adopted the raising of my hands in Mass. It is a way of adoring God. In the past I have held hands and I am not against this practice.

With regard to the holding of hands, I was told a few years ago that this is a practice in the Church at Milan. We are in a universal Church, not just the USA, (I live in Australia) and if the practice is not frowned upon in Milan then there is no prohibition against the practice of raising hands.

Does it imitate the priest? Not exactly. First of all, we are all reciting the prayer together, not with the priest leading us. Secondly, and I have been carefully observing this, the position of the hands of the priest when they are raised for the Our Father is more out to the side than my own hands that are raised in front of me.

When raising my hands like this I am opening myself to the Lord in prayer. It is hard to explain what I mean about this. I know that I feel the urge to raise my hands like this, not just in the Our Father, but when we pray or sing the Alleluia verse (on the Sunday) as well as when singing the Gloria. This might not be liturgically correct but there is nothing to stop me from raising my hands in praise of God. It is not a Protestant gesture.

On the other hand when it comes to the sign of Peace, I would prefer not extending my hand. This is not a result of fearing germs, rather it is a case of having very sore hands due to arthritis. The reason that I am reluctant is due to the practice of people in squeezing my fingers and hurting me too much. Yes, I have winced in pain from this kind of thing. Whether or not you approve, I participate in the sign of peace by doing more of a high five so that my fingers are not being squeezed. I should point out here that even when I wore a brace on my hand one person ignored the fact that I had sore fingers and squeezed rather hard, and another person squeezed a spot near my thumb that sent the pain rivetting through my body. That is why I prefer not to make the sign of peace.

MaggieOH
 
debbie m.:
(Some bishops and liturgists had objected to hand-holding, however, a gesture that originated in Alcoholics Anonymous meetings and was popularized by some charismatic groups.)
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Had to smile when I read this since I am a former AA member who no longer attends meetings but by the grace of God has been sober almost 6 years. I also was a charismatic in my past Protestant life who has not gotten involved in the Catholic charismatic movement and most likely never will.

Even though I was aware that my almost irresistable urge to raise my hands in worship during some portions of the Mass stemmed from my past experience as a charismatic, I had not yet made the connection between holding hands for the “Our Father” and AA. No wonder the gesture feels so “natural” to me! 😉

I appreciate your concern for the Liturgy and I share your desire to obey the Church in all things. However, like Katherine, I didn’t find anything in your Adoremus documents that supported your contention that the practice had been **rejected **and therefore was prohibited. The only thing that was rejected was making the practice a part of the rubics and mandatory.

What do I know, though? :whacky: I am not even an “official” Catholic yet and even though I have been studying the Church and Church teachings for over a year and a half, I still have much to learn! All I know for sure is that the Pastor of my parish is as reverent and orthodox as they come and if he allows the practice in his parish, then I don’t see any reason to question his judgment. 🙂
In His love,
Rhonda
 
Well, some of you have helped me to make a decision that I need to get a letter of to Rome requesting explicit instructions for the faithful to NOT hold hands and to NOT assume the priest’s gesture of the orans during the Our Father. I will be encouraging other faithful Catholics to do send in this request as well. The most concerning being that some parishes have actually adopted the hand holding abuse as a liturgical norm which puts a burden on those who do not wish to do so - this has become evident from the comments on this forum.

**I guarantee at some point the Holy See will instruct that these abuses cease. **It’s only a matter of time…in fact, I am **sending a letter off to the Congregation for Divine Worship, in Rome, today **stating how common these practices have become.

Thank you all for making me so aware of these abuses and misunderstandings of the Sacred Liturgy.

In reality, you can stand when the instructions say sit…you can sit when the instructions say stand…you can kneel for the entire Mass if you so choose…there is nothing saying** DON’T **do this or that in regards to postures and gestures. You can do whatever suits YOU. Although it is NOT recommended.

This same sort of issue came up in regards to priests inviting the faithful to stand around the altar during the consecration and their mantra was, “it doesn’t say anywhere that we are NOT allowed to do it therefore we’re doing it.” Yet in the instructions from the Church it was very clear who was to be in the sanctuary and who was not. (the faithful who were assuming a liturgical role were permitted and the priests, that’s it!) Many faithful Catholics wrote letters of complaint about this liturgical abuse and now Rome is saying STOP bringing and inviting the faithful into the sanctuary during Mass.

It really doesn’t matter what a priest or bishop thinks on these two matters it is up to the HOLY SEE in Rome. We all know there are priest’s and bishop’s who are heretics and do whatever they want to. No wonder some of the faithful think they don’t have to follow the instructions from the Church.
 
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Livnlove55:
What do I know, though? :whacky: I am not even an “official” Catholic yet and even though I have been studying the Church and Church teachings for over a year and a half, I still have much to learn! All I know for sure is that the Pastor of my parish is as reverent and orthodox as they come and if he allows the practice in his parish, then I don’t see any reason to question his judgment. 🙂
In His love,
Rhonda
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God bless you on your journey. What a great attitude!!! Your Pastor is blessed with wonderful support (as should all Pastors be.) Of course it is possible for a Pastor to be in error, but this is the exception rather than the rule. Most often it is best to let the Pastor do his job, and we do ours, which is to be supportative and obedient.
 
For those who love the Sacred Liturgy and want to protect it from abuses. **Please write to Rome and ask that they put forth explicit instructions for the faithful stating they are to NOT hold hands or assume the orans posture during the Our Father. **Explain the wide scope of these abuses and the mindset of the faithful and priests who encourage these in their parishes.

Here is the address:

His Eminence Francis Cardinal Arinze
Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments
Piazz Pio XII, 10
VATICAN CITY

God bless all of you who send in a letter for helping to protect the Sacred Liturgy. 🙂

His unworthy servant,
Debbie
 
debbie m.:
God bless all of you who send in a letter for helping to protect the Sacred Liturgy. 🙂

His unworthy servant,
Debbie
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The Sacred Liturgy is protected
(or is the Holy Spirit on vacation???)
 
Obviously Satan is attacking from within. Of course, the Holy Spirit does not force Himself upon each individual, we must be open to receive His guidance. Obviously some of the faithful and priests have closed their hearts and are doing their own thing rather than what God intends…which is obedience to His Church. Yes, He does protect the Sacred Liturgy but humans have to be obedient to do His work.

It is the Holy Spirit which guides and prompts the faithful to speak out about abuses and inform the Holy See, therefore, bringing about correction. So here we have the Holy Spirit guiding me and others to assist in protecting the Sacred Liturgy - unworthy as I am I will do it, out of love and obedience. 🙂

God bless,
Debbie
 
debbie m.:
Obviously Satan is attacking from within. Of course, the Holy Spirit does not force Himself upon each individual, we must be open to receive His guidance. Obviously some of the faithful and priests have closed their hearts and are doing their own thing rather than what God intends…which is obedience to His Church. Yes, He does protect the Sacred Liturgy but humans have to be obedient to do His work.
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Am I understanding you correctly? Are you saying that satan is prompting people to raise their hands in prayer, or hold hands during the Lord’s Prayer??? :bigyikes:

And this is a top priority in abuses to be corrected?
 
What I am saying is that Satan tempts people, with their cooperation, to be disobedient to Christ and His Holy Church’s authority. Satan is the master of pride and he tempts people into doing what “I” want to do because “I” like it, rather than even if “I” like it I will be obedient to Christ and His Church.

All of this is about obedience - obviously, the postures themselves are not evil.

I find something interesting about you Mysty101: ** I read your other posts about kneeling for Communion and you state that people should follow the normative posture in order to be united as a community rather than centring themselves out and doing what they want. ** I’m confused here when you then on this thread imply we should just do what we want for the posture during the Our Father…** Don’t you think that’s a little contradictory?**

His unworthy servant,
Debbie
 
Holding hands or raising the hands is part of the longstanding traditions of some liturgical communities.

I can’t see what the problem is in allowing it to continue, much less making it a top priority.
 
"Maybe I’m just weird, but it wouldn’t feel right to look up… I usually bow my head and look down when we say the Our Father. Looking up would feel too aggressive or irreverent, for me at least. "

AMEN!
From what I have found, it is a very “LOOK AT ME!” thing to do. “I am so pious and you are not because I pray looking to God.”
When they started it at my old parish, just those people in the congregation who thought they were something did it (AND looked to see who was looking at them). As time wore on, more people started because it looked like the thing to do. As I left, the whole holding hands and lifting them had become the norm. I held my seven year old’s hands and told her to close her eyes to pray. I prefer that she be humble than go with the crowd.

I just have to say, Thank God for my new parish and a very pious congregation! We don’t socialize, we don’t discuss at the homily, we have some Latin and Greek in our Mass. Our Priest is a living saint who will not allow communion in the hand. I and many of the ladies in our church still cover our heads. And yes, we are under Rome and pray for Our Pope.

Okay so I’m weird and I will need a flame suit at this time, but the word “Community” to me is just a code for the modernists. I don’t need a community to love the Lord. The priest does not need you to co-celebrate (which is what it looks like to me, in fact those that started this, could always be heard muttering along with the priest during Mass, sheesh!)

Which every way you need to come to God is great for you. But please understand that it is human nature to just do what everyone else is doing. If you think that this posture is loved at your church, you may well be incorrect. Done, yes. Loved?

Talk to the seniors. I have at my old parish. They hated it.
 
When I attended Mass in Fresno, quite a few people would do the hand holding thing during the “Our Father”. In my Placerville Parish, I was told the Bishop of the Sacramento diocese does not allow it. To be honest, I do not miss having my hand clasped during the prayer. Some people still raise their hands during the Our Father in the Placerville parish, but they no longer have their hands clasped together when doing so.

When one of the leaders of “Re-Membering” (a series of voluntary meetings for those returning to the Catholic Church after being away from it for a year or more) seemed to indicate that she missed the “hand holding” during the Our Father but the Bishop of Sacramento ordered that the hand holding stop. I didn’t consider asking why at the time.
 
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