Raising taxes on the rich

  • Thread starter Thread starter valentino
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
I’m definitely not happy with the corruption and abuses in government. ** I just think the lesser of the two evils is to have the government regulation.** In this case, I don’t know how much downright corruption there was, but I think it was in the political interest to make it look like the government punished BP and everything was cleaned up. The spill isn’t good for BP or the government, but at least the government has some pressure from the citizens.

Sorry I brought it up… I think I’ve been taking this thread off-topic.
Actually, it has been demonstrated repeatedly that the government regulation is the GREATER of the two evils.

And capitalism/ free market economics/ open and free competition isn’t an evil at all.

Most everything you use each day is a product of the free market … even if controlled somewhat by the government.

You will notice that people flock to the United States illegally taking incredible death-defying risks.

Relatively few people head off to Sweden or to Nigeria or to Russia.
 
:

“The government made them do it,” is a poor argument, even by BP’s own admission. The better argument is to show that the government wasn’t doing its job or had too little regulation. Or do you think without the government oil spills would never happen, and if they did BP would be even more concerned citizens of the community? They have a fiduciary responsibility to their shareholders to make money. As long as you accept that premise, I will contend that the market can never accurately build a desirable society without external rules.
Actually, whatever admissions they made was after being bludgeoned by President Obama repeatedly. And BP retained an attorney who may or may not have been working in their interests.

The BP attorney was Jamie Gorelick … if you look up “mistress of disaster” on google, you will see why … if you don’t already know.

And BP was bludgeoned also into paying $20 billion into a special fund. And that money has disappeared.

Under Miranda Rules, you are not allowed to be bludgeoned into a confession or thrown down a flight of stairs or walked head first into a door.
 
Actually, it has been demonstrated repeatedly that the government regulation is the GREATER of the two evils.
Tell that to the people who lived in the early 1900’s.
And capitalism/ free market economics/ open and free competition isn’t an evil at all.
Capitalism is what it is. I don’t attribute malice to the desire to make money. But the rules of that game are just one: make as much money as you can. And I probably don’t have to explain to you how having money gives you an advantage over others in that game. So without regulation what ends up happening is you end up with these huge conglomerates that end up being the de-facto government. Now you’ve come full-circle.

Seriously, if I was Walmart, I’d just start setting up housing for my workers around the back side of each store. I would subsidize their healthcare, housing, and any other things they needed to live in order to keep costs low and provide great value to the employees. If I did a good enough job, I’d be the only game in town. And there you have it, Walmart without any regulations whatsoever, becomes your government.
Most everything you use each day is a product of the free market … even if controlled somewhat by the government.
Good. No one is against free markets, or capitalism. There just needs to be rules to the game so that they remain free. Even Alan-freaking-Greenspan admits the economic collapse was caused by lax regulation.
You will notice that people flock to the United States illegally taking incredible death-defying risks.
Relatively few people head off to Sweden or to Nigeria or to Russia.
I think you’re just throwing spaghetti at the wall to see if it sticks.

Side question for you: I’m guessing you’re a Libertarian if you haven’t stated so explicitly. What do you think about unions? Should people be allowed to form unions?
 
Actually, whatever admissions they made was after being bludgeoned by President Obama repeatedly. And BP retained an attorney who may or may not have been working in their interests.

The BP attorney was Jamie Gorelick … if you look up “mistress of disaster” on google, you will see why … if you don’t already know.

And BP was bludgeoned also into paying $20 billion into a special fund. And that money has disappeared.

Under Miranda Rules, you are not allowed to be bludgeoned into a confession or thrown down a flight of stairs or walked head first into a door.
So with the truth and the law on their side, BP lied and said it was their fault? And other investigations are all lying too, probably because Obama called them personally to threaten them. Come on now, BP’s internal memo was specific about the cause. It wasn’t just some vague admission of guilt.
 
For reasons for NOT raising taxes on the “rich”, visit the Web site of the free market think tank for your state.

SPN has a list of all of the think tanks.

Check out your state:

spn.org/
 
So with the truth and the law on their side, BP lied and said it was their fault? And other investigations are all lying too, probably because Obama called them personally to threaten them. Come on now, BP’s internal memo was specific about the cause. It wasn’t just some vague admission of guilt.
People are tortured all the time into making statements that force them to take blame for something when there is plenty of fault to go around.

You might want to look up whether or not a statement made under duress is a lie or not. [Not YOUR OPINION … what does the **Church say?]

And the Catholic Church is against torture.

Besides they had Jamie Gorelick on “their side”.
 
So with the truth and the law on their side, BP lied and said it was their fault? And other investigations are all lying too, probably because Obama called them personally to threaten them. Come on now, BP’s internal memo was specific about the cause. It wasn’t just some vague admission of guilt.
Suppose I have my neighbor over to fry chicken.
and suppose the frying pan catches fire.

But instead of letting the neighbor cover the pan and stop the fire while it is somewhat controllable I step in and prevent the neighbor from doing so, and the fire spreads to the rest of the house as well as others in the neighborhood.

And now imagine that I place blame on the neighbor for the entire fire, even though the I had stopped the neighbor from doing anything when it could be done.

Seems a little odd. But that is what appears to have gone on.
Yes, BP was responsible. But they cannot be held responsible for the entirety of the problem.
 
The whole issue with “social justice” … the title of this whole topic … is the very subjectiveness of it.

God, the Infinite, can sort it out.

But when we lesser beings attempt to discuss it, we get caught up in our own … preferences and our own ideas of fairness … and things like “envy” … ooooh … he doesn’t deserve that money … so I will take it away from him.

One of my Russian friends said there is an old Russian saying, “I hope your cow dies.”

Social justice. Don’t trouble me with facts. I don’t care if your cow dying benefits me at all as long as YOU are hurt. I don’t like you and I want you to be hurt regardless of the cost to me.

This just came to my inbox today. It’s about social justice and it’s well written.

humanevents.com/article.php?id=44391
 
Hi Rtumer76,

You certainly have a lot of material here … and some of it is valid.

Regan was not successful - remember the Late Tip ONeal tell Regan that Regan’s budget was dead on arrival? Much of what we attribute to any President (pro or con) has little to do with that particular man - rather it what actually gets through the Congress. There are exceptions, of course, FDR is cassic for his 100 days … which was more smoke and mirrors but, it was a psychological stimulus and that is what the country needed - and the real credit goes to Roosevelt moreso thatn the Congress. Clinton was pounding on the podium about how he was going to get the health care bill he had decided he would get (and with a Democratic Congress no less) or he would veto any poor substitute. He got nothing. It would be odd not to credit the Republicans in their Contract with America concerning welfare reform - but, yes, Clinton did sign it, so that and a balanced budget with a surplus that we can look back on: Here is an interesting link: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Revenue_and_Expense_to_GDP_Chart_1993_-_2008.png

It really is not as simplistic as you are presenting… and that is a major issue. The solutions are not going to be simplistic, either. Income re-distribution looks good to those on the receiving end … and not so good on those who are having their property taken. But, where is there a model where such a program would work - Marx tried and tried to get the industrial English to accept this - but, it failed to gather hardly any traction. The agricultural Russians tried to adopt it … as did China, Cuba and N. Korea. Look at the results.

Scraming about the inustices between the classes (‘rich getting richer…’) is really hollow because we all want at least sufficient wealth to enjoy leisure. The hollowness comes in when you look at the so-called ‘poor getting poorer’. Since 1945 those considered poor have enjoyed yearly increases in their standard of living - the US economy (people investing in goods and services) skyrocketed. When you compare things like food, automobiles, housing, health care - things are much better then they were after WW II. The poor have NOT gotten poorer.

For the past 5 years we have had a significant economic depression. But, unlike the Great Depression - we do not see shut down factories becuase no one is buying items (many are shut down because of US laws and companies moving to other countries) or bread lines, or ‘Hoovervilles’. While anyone can come up with a ‘my Aunt Emma’ type example - what I am saying is true for the majority in the country.

Seriously, if you want to do something significant for the economy … offer to take a rich man to lunch! Over lunch, find out what drives him to do what he does and to outperform his competors. Sure you may find greed - but, I guarantee it does not stop there. You will find genuine interest and determination and enthusiasm for what he does - and he looks to his employees as not so many ants to step on - but, as valuable assets to accomplish his mission. They may see him as a paycheck - but, the truly motivated employee will also see the boss’ dream as their dream, too.

You know, no one really understands this economy … and they really did not understand it in 1776, either. There are a lot of aspects the Blind Men and the Elephant poem by John Godfrey Saxe (1816-1887) hits the nail on the head … a lot of us have ideas about what makes it work - but, none of guys have really identified an elephant. 🙂

God bless
The stats you are talking about do not exist. Regan was NOT successful. He created the first trillion dollar deficit then ran it up multi trillions. Bush1 added more more to it. The Clinton administration balanced the budget. The fact they had a republican house 1 year of 2 balanced terms means nothing. They passed the Clinton plan. It’s just more of holding on to the lie of a theory that NEVER actually worked. It;s a farce, a boondoggle. Trikledown or “Reganomics” NEVER worked, not even one year. I figure it must be more comfortable for people to believe that lie than than to admit you could possibly be wrong about making the rich richer and the poor poorer.

I didn’t think I called any one a name, I certainly didn’t mean to and I apologize if anyone took in that way. I wasn’t trying to disrespect anyone’s opinion, just state my opinion as clearly as possib;e. So I want to apoligize also if anyone is offended by any expression I am making however my opinion I don’t believe can be found offensive. Just unpopular.
 
Hi, Valentino,

I think it would be helpful to define your terms when you state, “…and lower classes.it didn’t improve their economic situations…” just what do you mean?

While I guess it is easy to beat up on /Gates or other such billionaires and destroyers of the econom, tormentors of widows and orphans and a return to the Robber Baron days - I do not think such a description would stand up to serious examinaiton. By the same token, one could criticize Henry Ford for all of the wheelwrights and buggy whip makers he put out of business with his automobiles. And, make no mistake about it - those jobs quickly became nearly extinct! But, look at how many more he provided employment to while making these same cars.

Most discussion on the economy are like trying to talk about what we are seeing in our rear view mirror as we drive our cars into the future. There is this gap … and we really can not quite get a handle on it. We have seen (or at least read about) the Great Depression - and we do not know if a default by Greece will trigger such a new event - so we are busy looking in our rear-view mirror and wondering what to do. Are there enough rich in Greece to float their economy back to solvency - without massive belt-tightening? I do not know. My concern is what kind of future awaits SS and Medicare & MedicaiD?

God bless

Tom
Yes,I agree.But how did it really benefit the middle and lower classes.it didn’t improve their economic situations.It may have put more people to work but the classes were just as poor as before and Gates got much wealthier.Aren’t we trying to find a way that the other classes are better off than before?
 
Hi, MarkInOregon,

I get the impression that no business anywhee in the US is really being regulated enough! Obviously, the current ‘Captains of Industry’ are just as greedy and decietful as their forefathers the Robber Barons!

This is not to say that regulations are bad or misplaced or non-productive - I honestly think that there would still be some form of child labor if there were not laws against it, that there would be even more unsafe mines (recent disasters are good examples today) if there weren’t regulations. The issue in my mind is how to come up with a balance - an area where owners and investors can create and develop and the their workers still be safe. I do not know if such a place really exists - but, we will not arrive their by some fyple of fiat. It will be the give and take between the regulated and the regulator (Congress) that will make it happen.

God bless

Tom
Monte RCMS;8017722:
You are absolutely correct. But the idea that because things have improved they can never go back to the way they were - leads to a complacency in the general public that I find worrisome. And were their demands unreasonable? The mine owners thought so–thought they all were.

Why isn’t it 1913 anymore? (aside from the passage of time of course) Do you think regulation and labor law played no part? You never answer these questions.

The history of business practices up to the present day should tell us that if they could–they’d still have us shopping at the company store and buying patent medicine if they were allowed to.

The idea that we should just junk all regulation and let business go and do what it wants to because it will treat workers fairly and sell safe products because its not 1913 anymore–is not born out by the historical record of human existence. It is always 1913 if you aren’t vigilent.

From where I sit those who want to throw out all regulation are no better than the rabid environmentalists in my area who if they could would stop all logging and remove all the dams and if I lived in WV stop all mtn top mining. They never ask do the benefits outweigh the costs because as far as they are concerned they don’t view navigation, flood control, recreation, energy and jobs as a benefit. For them it is more important that we have wolves than cattle to feed people–probably because a good percentage of them don’t think we should eat meat. For the no regulation folks they don’t see the benefits of forcing an employer to take safety precautions or in keeping them from poluting. What’s wrong with exposing workers to DDT? It kills bugs and I can always get more workers. There’s no benefit to the business–you’re costing me profits. Love canal it was nothing. People getting cancer from contaminated ground water–lies all lies–our chemicals are safe and besides we don’t dump them. Cigarettes? Hey they are healthy! You can’t believe those cancer studies–all lies–trust us.

So on one side I’ve got those who want me to eat dandilions and be eaten by wolves–so the world can return to its natural state and on the other I’ve got those who want me living in brownfields and don’t care if my living or working conditions are safe just as long as businesses make the profits they desire.

Now before I get tarred and feathered–I am not against protecting the enviroment and I am not against profits both are important and I don’t see why they can’t coexist. I have issues with extemists at both ends of the spectrum.

So Monte–I got the message–yes I know regulation bad, business good. Rich good, workers praise the rich for allowing you to make profits for them and thank them for the crumbs they give you. Taxes bad. Government bad. I have seen the light. Absolutely no benefit has been derived from regulation and labor law. Our food and workers are not safer because of it. Got it.

Thanks,
Mark
 
Hi, Mark David,

Picking on Paris Hilton …? 😃 Without a doubt she is (or, at least was, serving as the bad example for spoiled rich kids - of whatever age!) a classic example. But, I think it would be more challenging if you were to address Conrad Hilton - the driving force who was significant in building the Hilton Hotel chain … with Paris only inheriting her grandfather’s and father’s wealth (without their brains).

While there are other examples of Conrad Hiltons in every indrustry - the issue is that without such men and women our economy would be much poorer.

God bless

Tom
That’s a wild generalization; some wealthy people are clearly none of those things. Paris Hilton?

Nice pun. As for whose business it is - are you saying that how much a person earns, and how they earn it, is never a social issue? No man is an island.
 
If I screw up and fail to submit one of the many many forms that the government requires, then the fines start at $10,000 and rise steeply from there. One of my friends started a framing shop and messed up on a two cent tax. Cost them $20,000 in fines.

Could I ask you where you got these numbers and what forms you are talking about? I am sure you are correct with regard to some fines (FBAR reporting for example, but if it is inadvertant you can get that waived–if it’s assessed). I’d be currious about the two cent tax and the $20,000–I am sure there is a lot more to the story. I deal with businesses and these government forms daily and something doesn’t smell right about what your saying–in my experience. For example most penalties relating to tax are based on a percentage of the tax due or underpaid–not a flat fine.
I surfed the net and found a lot of places where the penalties are posted.

The most explicit official statement is one that I found is in New Jersey:

“The consequences for failure to provide workers’ compensation
coverage can be very significant, even without a work-related injury.
Specifically, the law provides that failing to insure is a disorderly persons
offense and, if determined to be knowing, a crime of the fourth degree.
Moreover, penalties for such failure can be assessed up to $5,000 for
the first 10 days with additional assessments of $5,000 for each 10-day
period of failure to insure thereafter. In the case of a corporation, liability
for failure to insure can extend to the corporate officers individually.
Penalties assessed for failure to insure are not dischargeable in
bankruptcy.”

So, if I screw up and fail to fill out the forms for workers compensation, then that’s what happens. If I focus on getting the actual work task done and somehow the workers comp paperwork is done incorrectly or not at all, then I am screwed.

Which is a good reason to hire a payroll service such as PayChex or ADP and / or hire a temp agency and get them to function as my human resources and payroll departments.
 
Hi, MarkInOregon,

I get the impression that no business anywhee in the US is really being regulated enough! Obviously, the current ‘Captains of Industry’ are just as greedy and decietful as their forefathers the Robber Barons!

This is not to say that regulations are bad or misplaced or non-productive - I honestly think that there would still be some form of child labor if there were not laws against it, that there would be even more unsafe mines (recent disasters are good examples today) if there weren’t regulations. The issue in my mind is how to come up with a balance - an area where owners and investors can create and develop and the their workers still be safe. I do not know if such a place really exists - but, we will not arrive their by some fyple of fiat. It will be the give and take between the regulated and the regulator (Congress) that will make it happen.

God bless

Tom

Hello Tom,

Sorry if that is the impression you got and I’m not sure why got it. I have repeatedly acknowledged that there is plenty of bad and worthless regulation. I’ve not been arguing for more regulation. What I have said is that I get the impression that some in this discussion think that any and all regulation is bad. My position is and has been that some regulation is needed. My position is and has been that we have seen improvements in worker and consumer safety because of regulation and labor law. I get the impression that some here don’t believe that any of the improvement is due to law & regulation. I don’t think history warrants that conclusion. Because I have felt attacked and my questions have not been answered accept with non answers, anecdotes, accusations, and conservative spin pieces–I got a bit sarcastic and hyperbolic–regarding those who want no regulation at all and those who want to regulate all business out of existence in the name of returning the world to some natural state.

As I have acknowledged in previous posts–there are good and decent employers–I work for one. In the 1980’s I think my father was one–during that recession we often went with very minimal paychecks because we had to pay our employees first. But a look through business safety records will show you many employers who willfully and repeatedly put their employees at risk in the name of profits. A look at Wall Street will show you some who are worse than the robber barrons of old–at least the robber barrons produced something. You can still find the greedy and deceitful employers today (not all employers respect their employees and value them) just as you could find good and decent employers in the past. My argument is with those who think we are in some new employer paradim and that things can never take a step back. They remind me of those who thought the market could only go up.

What you say in your second paragraph has been my point–its just been met with jeers–as if it is not a valid or reasonable position to hold.

I don’t know how you come up with the balance. However, I do think just scrapping all labor law and regulation is dangerous–at least for the public and for employees.

Peace,
Mark
 
I surfed the net and found a lot of places where the penalties are posted.

The most explicit official statement is one that I found is in New Jersey:

“The consequences for failure to provide workers’ compensation
coverage can be very significant, even without a work-related injury.
Specifically, the law provides that failing to insure is a disorderly persons
offense and, if determined to be knowing, a crime of the fourth degree.
Moreover, penalties for such failure can be assessed up to $5,000 for
the first 10 days with additional assessments of $5,000 for each 10-day
period of failure to insure thereafter. In the case of a corporation, liability
for failure to insure can extend to the corporate officers individually.
Penalties assessed for failure to insure are not dischargeable in
bankruptcy.”

So, if I screw up and fail to fill out the forms for workers compensation, then that’s what happens. If I focus on getting the actual work task done and somehow the workers comp paperwork is done incorrectly or not at all, then I am screwed.

Which is a good reason to hire a payroll service such as PayChex or ADP and / or hire a temp agency and get them to function as my human resources and payroll departments.
Monte,

The penalty is for “failing to insure” not for screwing up the paperwork. The penalties “can” be assessed. In states that I am familiar with ADP and Paychex don’t handle workers comp quarterly or annual filing requirements and you are required to seek the original coverage policy yourself. The NJ website does make it clear that all employers are required to obtain coverage.

I guess my issue is that you throw this out there and make it sound like the most minor paperwork screw up gets you fined $10,000 to start. In what you cite it a possible $5,000 for failing to insure (not for makiing a mistake on your paperwork) with additional penalites for continuing to fail to insure thereafter–basically for failing to comply with the law after you’ve been notified of the need to comply. There is a difference.

In 22 years I have yet to see one of our clients assessed a workers comp penalty like the above penalty. I will grant that New Jersey is one of the worst states to do business in and once you get nexus there they make it hard to get out–and I encourage clients to avoid nexus there if at all possible.

I’d still like to know more about the $20,000 your frame shop friends paid and how long ago it was. That,s a large dollar amount and it sounds funny. We have good success getting penalties waived if there is reasonalbe cause–they need to know how to ask.

Peace,
Mark
 
What I have said is that I get the impression that some in this discussion think that any and all regulation is bad. My position is and has been that some regulation is needed. My position is and has been that we have seen improvements in worker and consumer safety because of regulation and labor law. I get the impression that some here don’t believe that any of the improvement is due to law & regulation. I don’t think history warrants that conclusion.
👍 Exactly.
 
But when we lesser beings attempt to discuss it, we get caught up in our own … preferences and our own ideas of fairness … and things like “envy” … ooooh … he doesn’t deserve that money … so I will take it away from him.
Who do you think is being envious?

The right to private property is not absolute and unconditional.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top