Raising taxes on the rich

  • Thread starter Thread starter valentino
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Hi, Jerry-Jet,

I think Monte RCMS gave an excellent response. Really. If everyone - real and corporate - paid 10% straight off the top, there would be an whole new approach to taxation. But I am curious as to why you think it is necessary to tax wealthy persons more?

God bless
If Jesus were to set the highest tax rate what would He put it at?

It is hard for me to believe that Jesus would tax anyone more than 1/2 of whatever they earned?

Am I wrong about that? I can see taxing wealthy people more–I just think it is wrong for the government to take more than 1/2 of whatever one earns in taxes.

Is that right or wrong?
 
Wealthy people can pay more than 10% which is good for the society as a whole and it will not hurt them.

On the other hand–the bible as far as I know never has endorsed a progressive tax system.

I would think that extremely wealthy people who are able to do much good for God’s kingdom–and don’t do that good and keep their wealth–I’m sure that they will go to Hell in the end.

On the other hand it certainly isn’t wrong to be RICH!

Job was rich and God blessed him and he was a good righteous man. And after all his goods were taken away at the end of the book of Job God restored all his weath and even more!

God could have given that wealth to the poor but he wanted Job to have it!

And in the parable of the talents the individual who made the most talents was given the talent that was buried–not the person who made two talents more.

And the scriptures say “To him who has much much will be given but to him who has little even what little he has will be taken away!”

Course in the end the rich man wound up Hell but the poor man whom the dogs licked his sores–he wound up in Abraham’s bosom!

So if you’re asking me what the perfect percentage of taxation is–I don’t know–I could certainly live with everyone being taxed 10%.

I would just pray that if I lived in a society like that-- that people of all income levels that were able would give to the poor and give to furthering God’s Catholic Church and kingdom.

The one thing I do know is this–if you give to others as if they were Jesus–that is the best course. And if you don’t envy or covet what rich people have but thank God that he blesses people with wealth and pray that God will work his will with Heaven–and I bet that you could live with any tax system and would probably advocate a just tax system for all.
 
When Jesus did the miracle of the loaves & fishes, His disciples at the time said it would cost a year’s pay to feed them. So then He did the miracle.

So, how much in current dollars would that have been?
So, anybody want to take a stab at how much Jesus and His friends earned in their “day jobs”?

If there were 20,000 people … men, women, and children … and if catering in a lunch costs $20 per person … this was far away from town. Then you’re looking at $400,000.
 
If Jesus were to set the highest tax rate what would He put it at?

It is hard for me to believe that Jesus would tax anyone more than 1/2 of whatever they earned?

Am I wrong about that? I can see taxing wealthy people more–I just think it is wrong for the government to take more than 1/2 of whatever one earns in taxes.

Is that right or wrong?
Honest answer, I think Jesus wouldn’t get into politics. Giving Ceasar what is Ceasar’s is not really an endorsement of any political ideology as it is just telling you not to worry about that kind of stuff.

Also personally, I think a 50% cap is really an absolute maximum you should be able to tax someone on anything. Anything over 50% just sounds way too unfair. Realistically, I think the cap should be 30-35%
 
Hi, Copperbladfe,

This is truly an interesting concept - and one which I really do not have serious clue how to apply it.

If “…private property is not absolute and unconditional…” what on earth is? Seriously, how does one live their life if they are unsure if they have ownership - we can discuss just what is absolute and unconditional.

Maybe with the specific focus we can get a better understanding of just what is meant.

God bless
I don’t think it means that the government can just take everything and redistribute it. If you read what Pope Leo XIII wrote that is referenced, it emphasizes the point Monte is trying to make about the rights of property. So it isn’t a simple case of “you have no say over private property” but more of a case of where is the balance? I think the Popes are coming out against extreme positions which lead to either Communism (extreme left) or Fascism (extreme right). I know Libertarians don’t think their ideas lead to Fascism, but realistically they probably will unless there’s strong government regulation and enforced trust busting laws.

Think about this: if the U.S. government budget was only a fraction of what a corporation made, what could happen? Warren Buffet already helped the government out by agreeing to certain warrants with certain banks. When you have that kind of money, you have a lot of power even if you’re not using it to lobby.

But who am I kidding? I really can’t predict the future.
 
Here is the text of an Old Testament partial set of the Ten Commandments:

4 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.
5 “Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long upon the land which the Lord your God is giving you.
6 “You shall not murder.
7 “You shall not commit adultery.
8 “You shall not steal.
9 “You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
10 “You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor’s.”

I highlighted the parts that mention specific examples of private property … servants might have been indentured servants or slaves at that time and place. If the servants were “free” men and women, then they would not be included in the “covet” thing.

And the part in red is pretty specific.

It is possible that in desiring to raise taxes on the rich, you may be coveting their wealth.
It is possible, but certainly not probable if you’re rich. But whether we should or not shouldn’t be based on whether or not some people are covetous, right? I don’t want to make an assumption of bad-will here, so I’m just going to ask as this is the second time you’ve mentioned it: are you saying some people on this forum are covetous and that’s why they want to raise taxes for the rich?

As far as stealing goes…
vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s2c2a7.htm
The following are also morally illicit: speculation in which one contrives to manipulate the price of goods artificially in order to gain an advantage to the detriment of others; corruption in which one influences the judgment of those who must make decisions according to law; appropriation and use for private purposes of the common goods of an enterprise; work poorly done; tax evasion; forgery of checks and invoices; excessive expenses and waste. Willfully damaging private or public property is contrary to the moral law and requires reparation.
Which I hope we can both agree on. Notice how tax evasion is a form of stealing, not taxation. Before you think I’m just coming out against you 100%, Pope Leo XIII did speak against unfair redistribution.
 
Hi, Jerry-Jet,

I think Monte RCMS gave an excellent response. Really. If everyone - real and corporate - paid 10% straight off the top, there would be an whole new approach to taxation. But I am curious as to why you think it is necessary to tax wealthy persons more?

God bless
Sure and the U.S. could just default on its loans, and everyone’s dollars could just devaluate on the market. Realistically if we just dropped the tax rate to 10% we’d all lose more due to national failure than just paying our approx 30% that (as I’ve pointed out before) is the real tax rate just about everyone in the U.S. pays.

And keep in mind, I’m in favor of a flat or at least flat-ish tax rate because it still means the rich pay more. I don’t mind giving people on the extreme bottom a break on necessities. But I think a lot of us in this country have to acknowledge the fact that almost everyone in this country is “rich” compared to most of the world.

Check to see where you rank: globalrichlist.com/
 
2424 - A theory that makes profit the exclusive norm and ultimate end of economic activity is morally unacceptable. The disordered desire for money cannot but produce perverse effects. It is one of the causes of the many conflicts which disturb the social order.
I’m starting to think (economic) libertarianism is incompatible with Catholicism. I should have realized that by the way a lot of libertarians look up to Rand.
 
I don’t think it means that the government can just take everything and redistribute it. If you read what Pope Leo XIII wrote that is referenced, it emphasizes the point Monte is trying to make about the rights of property. So it isn’t a simple case of “you have no say over private property” but more of a case of where is the balance? I think the Popes are coming out against extreme positions which lead to either Communism (extreme left) or Fascism (extreme right). I know Libertarians don’t think their ideas lead to Fascism, but realistically they probably will unless there’s strong government regulation and enforced trust busting laws.

Think about this: if the U.S. government budget was only a fraction of what a corporation made, what could happen? Warren Buffet already helped the government out by agreeing to certain warrants with certain banks. When you have that kind of money, you have a lot of power even if you’re not using it to lobby.

But who am I kidding? I really can’t predict the future.
Folks, we keep forgetting the facts here:

The top 10% of wage earners pay over 60% of this nations taxes and also give more to charity than any other income group

There are over 30% of our population today that pays absolutely NO income tax.

So please, when one begins to speak of “rich” or “poor” , please keep these numbers in mind.

Now, the underlying question here seems to be that if you understand the above ratios, then why do you continue to question the fair share giving of the upper 10% as a group. (Don’t itemize as examples, individual upper earners who have “gamed” the system to pay nothing…as a group they pay the most).

The real question is: “Is there a moral salary cap???” That’s what much of the underlying dialog here is hinting at…including the Magisterium’s documents. If there is a moral salary cap, then why work anymore after you reach it?..to contribute more of your work value to others?

Again, I say…if that’s your position, then I want to see a counter, offsetting position regarding responsibility and accountability for those that are not truly metally or physically handicaped.

For those posters who say the answer is more free education at early years…I say fine. Then let’s prioritize that over free health care. After all, if more education begits more employable Americans that can pay more taxes, they can then afford minimum health care.

BUT…if one is actually of the belief that we should have full redistribution so that the difference between us all is minimum, we have, by definition a Communist State. It really is that simply. And I don’t state that obtusely. Truly, today our country is asking itself if Capitalism as identified in our Constitution with minimal Federal intervention should give way to Socialism or a Hybrid Social-Capitalist State, then we need to vote that immense very basic change into our Consitution and move on.

Greece, Spain, Portugal, Ireland…here we come
 
The top 10% of wage earners pay over 60% of this nations taxes and also give more to charity than any other income group
Of course the appropriate follow-up question how much of the total income do the top 10% make? If the answer is 60% then that would be a flat tax, right? Simply stating that the top 10% pay 60% of the taxes really doesn’t mean much by itself, except that naturally people who make more money pay more taxes.

Also, is that in terms of real taxes paid after filing, or taxes based on income brackets?
There are over 30% of our population today that pays absolutely NO income tax.
So please, when one begins to speak of “rich” or “poor” , please keep these numbers in mind.
Are you saying that’s the bottom 30% or is that 30% across the board of people who are evading taxes, etc? It’s pretty tough to get out of paying any taxes if you’re honest unless you’re really dirt poor. Are 30% of Americans that poor?
 
A few more comments on your interesting post…
(Don’t itemize as examples, individual upper earners who have “gamed” the system to pay nothing…as a group they pay the most).
I guess you’re right about that–when we’re talking about government policy and taxation it really isn’t appropriate to base this on individuals.
The real question is: “Is there a moral salary cap???”
Maybe if it’s relative to some other metric. Like maybe the moral salary cap for any one person in the U.S. should be 50% of the GDP? Whatever it is, I think it must be too high for us to be reasonably concerned about. Also I’m not convinced that this morality should be enforced via legal means.
That’s what much of the underlying dialog here is hinting at…including the Magisterium’s documents.
I didn’t get that impression…
If there is a moral salary cap, then why work anymore after you reach it?..to contribute more of your work value to others?
Well, that’s what the Church seems to be saying–that we work in order to be of service to others, and to establish progress for all humans. It definitely says that the pursuit of profit as an ends is immoral, as you would expect would coincide with Greed.
 
Hi, Jerry-Jet,

Of course, wealthy people can pay mroe than 10% … the issue is just how much more - and, who decides. There are 2 major snags with efforts at income re-distribution is that:
1.) it does not work except in theory (there isn’t one example out there with everyone making the same amount enjoying some type Utopian ideal)

2.) it takes away incentives for people to make improvements - and, without incentives there would be little to keep anyone focused.

Do you honestly think that if someone determined that the median yearly income was $x and those who made $x+1 would be taxed so that all those who were at $x-1 would have their income rise to $x - that this would solve one real problem? Every economy is complex - and, such a simplistic approach is going to do profound violence to the society. For an in-depth review of such an attempt, Look at the various 5-year plans implemented by Stalin (here is a link: johndclare.net/Russ11.htm ) It isn’t that progress can not be made under such conditions - it is at what cost, especially with a mass murderer like Stalin at the helm.

In my view, everyone making the same amount is the atheistic communist’s dream. It reduces the human spirit to an economic machine and exploits it with a ruthlessness that we have seen in Russia, China and North Korea.

Ah, but before you get carried away in condemning the ‘rich’ to hell - consider your own net worth. If compared with the rest of the world, no matter what you net worth may seem to you - you would be ‘RICH’! So, do you think you are now hell-bound because so many others think you are wealthy? The issue is not net worth - but, just what do you do with your money? Selfishness and greed do not come with dollar thresholds - they can exist at any income level. So can generosity.

Instead of apparently coveting the wealth of others - turning them in to the Tax Man and then turning them over to Charon for a one-way boat trip… why not think of ways that the wealthy in the society can be encouraged (rewarded) for helping the poor. Why do we indeed need government to do this? Look at the mess King Henry VIII made of his own kingdom after he took over the monesteries - thousands were severely punished, (Here is a link: catholic.com/thisrock/2006/0612tbt.asp) The idea that government can do a better job of caring for the poor is simply not true - just look at the ‘welfare class’ that has been created by such a monsterous government.

I find your analysis lacking in several areas - but, the major problem is a continuation of a totally discredited myth: that income redistribution works and it is the solution. Nothing could be farther from the truth.

God bless
Wealthy people can pay more than 10% which is good for the society as a whole and it will not hurt them.

On the other hand–the bible as far as I know never has endorsed a progressive tax system.

I would think that extremely wealthy people who are able to do much good for God’s kingdom–and don’t do that good and keep their wealth–I’m sure that they will go to Hell in the end.

On the other hand it certainly isn’t wrong to be RICH!

Job was rich and God blessed him and he was a good righteous man. And after all his goods were taken away at the end of the book of Job God restored all his weath and even more!

God could have given that wealth to the poor but he wanted Job to have it!

And in the parable of the talents the individual who made the most talents was given the talent that was buried–not the person who made two talents more.

And the scriptures say “To him who has much much will be given but to him who has little even what little he has will be taken away!”

Course in the end the rich man wound up Hell but the poor man whom the dogs licked his sores–he wound up in Abraham’s bosom!

So if you’re asking me what the perfect percentage of taxation is–I don’t know–I could certainly live with everyone being taxed 10%.

I would just pray that if I lived in a society like that-- that people of all income levels that were able would give to the poor and give to furthering God’s Catholic Church and kingdom.

The one thing I do know is this–if you give to others as if they were Jesus–that is the best course. And if you don’t envy or covet what rich people have but thank God that he blesses people with wealth and pray that God will work his will with Heaven–and I bet that you could live with any tax system and would probably advocate a just tax system for all.
 
Arguments and discussions that incorporate “tax brackets” are grossly misleading … not intentionally, but an “inconspicuous” tax “bracket” has taken over and supersedes the things that discussers use as “tax brackets”.

And that super tax bracket is the Alternative Minimum Tax.

Originally, the AMT was intended to snare a dozen or so super wealthy people who invested in municipal bonds whose interest is tax exempt.

Instead, now it has gotten so complicated and also NOT adjusted for inflation, that millions of middle income people are hooked and snared into it. And it is unavoidable.

If you and your spouse make together over a certain amount, then you must do the calculations.

Strongly suggest you look at IRS Form 6251 and the Instructions for IRS Form 6251.

The tax tables don’t really apply beyond a certain point.

AND, it is fun the read the form and the instructions because they are masterpieces of bafflegab. If you can figure them out, then you are a better man than I am, Gunga Din.
taxes.about.com/od/1040/a/minimum_tax.htm

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternative_Minimum_Tax

Significant excerpt:

Growth of the AMT

Although the AMT was originally enacted to target 155 high-income households, it now affects millions of middle-income families each year. The number of households that pay the tax has increased significantly in the last decade: In 1997, for example, 605,000 taxpayers paid the AMT;[20] by 2008, the number of affected taxpayers jumped to 3.9 million, or about 4% of individual taxpayers.[52] A total of 27% of households that paid the AMT in 2008 had adjusted gross income of $200,000 or less.[53]

The primary reason for AMT growth is the fact that the AMT exemption, unlike regular income tax items, is not indexed to inflation. This means that income thresholds do not keep pace with the cost of living.[54] As a result, the tax affects an increasing number of households each year, as workers’ incomes adjust to inflation and surpass AMT eligibility levels. While not indexed for inflation, Congress has often passed short term increases in exemption amounts. The Tax Policy Center (a research group) estimated that if the AMT had been indexed to inflation in 1985, and if the Bush tax cuts had not gone into effect, only 300,000 taxpayers—instead of their projected 27 million—would be subject to the tax in 2010.[55] President Barack Obama included indexing the AMT to inflation in his FY2011 budget proposal, which did not pass. AMT raised $26 Billion of $1,031 Billion total individual income tax in 2008.[52]

Another important reason for the recent expansion of the AMT is the effect of the 2001–2006 Bush tax cuts.[54] The tax cuts decreased marginal tax rates for all income tax brackets without making corresponding changes to AMT rates. The lower tax liabilities triggered AMT eligibility for many households, eliminating the incentive effect of the tax cuts and subjecting more households to the tax. Economists often refer to this as the “take-back effect” of the Bush tax cuts.[20]

As the AMT has expanded, the inequalities created by the structure of the tax have become more apparent. Taxpayers are not allowed to deduct state and local taxes in calculating their AMT liability; as a result, taxpayers who live in states with high income tax rates are up to 7 times more likely to pay the AMT than those who live in states with lower income tax taxes.[56] Similarly, taxpayers are not allowed to deduct personal exemptions in calculating their AMT liability; as a result, taxpayers with large families—and specifically families with 3 or more children—are more likely to pay the AMT than smaller families.[57]
 
And to all you mine mine mine mine I did it by myself, no help form anybody, my workers this or that. You believe you should not pay taxes because you provide a job and the worker of that job pays taxes.
Staw Man.

No one here has suggested that people should be exempt from tax.
 
Originally, the AMT was intended to snare a dozen or so super wealthy people who invested in municipal bonds whose interest is tax exempt.

Instead, now it has gotten so complicated and also NOT adjusted for inflation, that millions of middle income people are hooked and snared into it. And it is unavoidable.
Thanks for posting that Monte. I agree that it is inappropriate for the tax code not to be inherently adjusted for inflation in general. Maybe it’s job security for the legislators?
 
Staw Man.

No one here has suggested that people should be exempt from tax.
…ahhh, but over 35% of our population is current exempt from paying ANY income tax. And as the minimum bracket is raised, just like as minimum wage for Medicad is raised, more people qualify.

You see, that’s the core of the matter. The more people that do not have the means (for a number of reasons) to earn more than the poverty line…or now 150% of the poverty line, the more people we have who don’t pay taxes and do get the free entitlement programs.

This is why I keep asking about minimum accountability and responsibility for the community to engage all of its physically and mentally capable members to become all that they can be. But without advanced education (technical or professional), and with two generations of entitled families as their examples, to brake that trend is very very difficult.

So…what is the Progressive option? Social Justice that includes redistributing the wealth of this nation from whomever has it, regardless of how they worked, sacrificed, etc. to get it to the rest of the population. That means providing more entitlements to those in the lower income brackets with virtually nothing expected in return. One could easily see that as the lower income birth rate out paces the higher earners birth rate, that we would be back to 90% tax brackets on the higher earners.

Of course we ALL need to take care of each other within reason. We need to use our Time, Talent and Treasure to contribute to our communities. We need especially to help those who are truly trying to improve their situation, during a defined timeline to get the improvement in place. But, this is the reasponsibility of the ENTIRE community, and not just the higher earners paying for Governement programs that allow the community at large to NOT invest its Time and Talent…and a little of its Treasure.

See the sublte difference there. It’s an entire community solution devoid of Class Warfare implications
 
If everyone were taxed at the same percentage what percentage opf taxation would be necessary to cover our current level of spending? I ask just to see how much we’d need.

I would never make the case that we’rwe spending the right amount of money–I think we’re overspending–but by how much I do not know.

If everyone were taxed the same percentage would the wealthy feel freer to give to the poor or disavataged. If that were so I think it would be a good thing.
 
Hi, Jerry-Jet,

We surely can get lost in the meaning of meaning when it comes to taxes. Now, if you want to have something to concern yourself about we have 37 days to go before the debt limit will either be met, or not met. Not meeting it will probably throw the entire concept of taxes into another crisis!

God bless

QUOTE=Jerry-Jet;8038868]If everyone were taxed at the same percentage what percentage opf taxation would be necessary to cover our current level of spending? I ask just to see how much we’d need.

I would never make the case that we’rwe spending the right amount of money–I think we’re overspending–but by how much I do not know.

If everyone were taxed the same percentage would the wealthy feel freer to give to the poor or disavataged. If that were so I think it would be a good thing.
 
Hi, Jerry-Jet,

We surely can get lost in the meaning of meaning when it comes to taxes. Now, if you want to have something to concern yourself about we have 37 days to go before the debt limit will either be met, or not met. Not meeting it will probably throw the entire concept of taxes into another crisis!

God bless

QUOTE=Jerry-Jet;8038868]If everyone were taxed at the same percentage what percentage opf taxation would be necessary to cover our current level of spending? I ask just to see how much we’d need.

I would never make the case that we’rwe spending the right amount of money–I think we’re overspending–but by how much I do not know.

If everyone were taxed the same percentage would the wealthy feel freer to give to the poor or disavataged. If that were so I think it would be a good thing.
Good question … about what is the right level of spending.

The next logical question is “what IS the right amount of spending”?

The government will not publish actual spending and actual tax revenues.

If they issued an annual report written the way every corporation MUST write theirs, then there would be five or ten years of history. And you could see at a glance how they are doing and what the trend(s) are.

Both annual and quarterly.

The Federal government doesn’t publish any such annual report and none of the states do either.

Sometimes, If you get very lucky, when a state issues bonds, then the Official Statement that must accompany every bond issue will have that tabulated data … but it is often buried very deeply.

There two ways to determine the “right” amount of spending.

One is a zero-based budget: Start with the absolute basics. One function at a time. Start with the Enumerated Powers of the Constitution, which is mostly military spending and the post roads. Instead they give you some bogus stuff with broad categories such as “personnel” and “purchasing”, which is not helpful.

Here is a really good and helpful article:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero-based_budgeting

Two is to look at the annual report data and see at what year spending and revenues matched up. And cut off spending at that level. With some fudging, because the budgets have not balanced in decades … you would need to look at the ACTUAL numbers … not easy to find … and the Feds use a LOT of “off-balance sheet financing” … and probably freeze actual spending at a 2005 level of dollars.

And you can’t use the word “budget” because the way the Federal government uses the word “budget” is in a different way from the way you or I or any corporation would use the word.

The Federal “budget” is a wish list. Ten trips to Vegas and a new G-V, that kind of thing. And it is “incremental” … you start with last year’s proposed budget and add the kitchen sink onto it.

Your budget and mine would be should we fix the old dryer or talk about getting a new one or is the reason why the thing won’t start is that the voltage dropped too low.

There IS some useful actual Federal spending stuff, but not from the Feds. It’s on the “Chart Page” of the Air Force Association. Keeper stuff. Look especially for the chart of defense spending as a percent of GDP. It might shock you. Only around 4%, which is historically not a high percentage.

airforce-magazine.com/MagazineArchive/Pages/ChartPageArchive.aspx
 
Arguments and discussions that incorporate “tax brackets” are grossly misleading … not intentionally, but an “inconspicuous” tax “bracket” has taken over and supersedes the things that discussers use as “tax brackets”.

And that super tax bracket is the Alternative Minimum Tax.

Originally, the AMT was intended to snare a dozen or so super wealthy people who invested in municipal bonds whose interest is tax exempt.

Instead, now it has gotten so complicated and also NOT adjusted for inflation, that millions of middle income people are hooked and snared into it. And it is unavoidable.

If you and your spouse make together over a certain amount, then you must do the calculations.

Strongly suggest you look at IRS Form 6251 and the Instructions for IRS Form 6251.

The tax tables don’t really apply beyond a certain point.

AND, it is fun the read the form and the instructions because they are masterpieces of bafflegab. If you can figure them out, then you are a better man than I am, Gunga Din.
Posters and readers interested in the OP issue of taxation of the “rich” should read this:

irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/i6251.pdf

See if you can make heads or tails out of it.

AND, here is the actual form:

irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/f6251.pdf

How “just” is this level of financial reporting for the average working person who earns a decent salary, maybe highly educated, and who is going out of their mind with work schedules and their kids’ stuff and etc. Not hardly rich … truly “rich” people are not like “Joe Lunch Box”, who HAVE to work to pay their bills.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top