Raising the level of discussion on NFP

[The_Bucket]

Bucket,
BEL is closer to the truth about female sexuality than you are, I am afraid. I read a lot of stereotypes and misconceptions in your last couple of posts here. No offense intended. I generally appreciate your contributions to threads, as well as admire your honesty. But I don’t want to perpetuate stereotypes that cage men and women in gender-based role playing. In a healthy woman in love, her ability to be loved and to give love physically in her marriage is every bit as important and vital to the core of her being and her identity as a person as it is for a man. Female sexual needs and expression is not an optional nice thing for a married woman in love. It can be that a destructive marriage relationship might make her withdraw, or societal brainwashing makes her believe she should not want what she really does want, or health/medical reasons might lower her libido, but these are the anomalies. A woman who desperately wants to make love to her husband (how often varies from person to person and is not as gender-related as stereotypes suggest) regularly and in a satisfying and loving fashion, and who would struggle with the idea of abstinence, IS actually the norm, despite the perpetual and exhausting stereotypes we are bombarded with today. Try reading the OT with an eye for female sexuality and see if it opens your eyes to how misguided our current notions on female sexuality are. Especially pay attention to the spoken words and actions of the wives of the OT patriarchs. It is very enlightening. Reading St. Paul’s exhortation to husbands and wives to not deprive each other, when read in the light of the realities attested to in the OT, becomes much more interesting and understandable.

mommamaree,

I’m not making any presumptions about whether it would be easier or harder for a woman to abstain than it is for a man. I was simply talking about how men are attached to their sexuality in terms of their very personal identity. Men and women from time to time have different needs or approaches to sex and that’s perfectly OK. Sometimes, of course, their minds are alike. That makes sense since we’re both human!

I assure you I’m well aware of the misguided notions of popular culture. Like I said, the idea that women, especially wives, should use the prospect of sex to “get something” out of their husbands is disgusting. It’s offensive on multiple levels, including implying that wives really don’t want to be physically intimate with their husbands for the sake of being intimate. I always keep in mind that Hebrew law refers to men making love to their wives as being a mitzvah. That is, a man is doing a good deed for another when he is intimate with his wife.

And I have an up-close view in my own life. I don’t know how “high” my drive is but I daresay that I’d be up for intimacy twice a day, every day. I have no idea if that’s high or low for a man. I know that my wife is lower than that on her non-fertile days but on her fertile days… well… we have to stay physically apart if we’re TTA. A kiss on the mouth is too much of a tease for her. So yeah, I know that the female sex drive is plenty strong and it’s a good thing that it’s strong. I can say with confidence that it ebbs and flows more than men generally do as a result of hormones, but when it’s “on”… yeah it is “ON” for real.

Sex is important for both spouses and abstinence for any period of time is hard for both. There is zero doubt about that. Men and women’s approach to sex can and frequently is different because men and women have different perspectives. That doesn’t make it any easier for one or the other to “go without” but it can mean that the emotional and mental damage of abstinence without the proper disposition to God’s will may be more severe for men if they don’t have other ways of connecting on deep levels with their wives.

 

[Usige]

And how do you respond to those specific questions?

I’ll answer your question then I’m out (getting too toxic for my blood).

We simply state that a couple should ask themselves each month if they are ready for a child. They should also pray and ask God what he wants of them. If the answer after prayer is “no” then fine. All we state is we should not start from a default position of “no” without consideration. In other words we should never say “we have 2 kids and we are done” instead we should say “right now 2 is all we can handle, we’ll see next month.” In essence we should never close the door absolutely. If we don’t ask God every month how can we listen for his answer?

Alas based on later comments this is a pharisaic view point from someone who sees sex as a means solely of sexual pleasure. I am so glad this has raised the level of discourse on NFP.

 

[Rico_S]

I

We simply state that a couple should ask themselves each month if they are ready for a child. They should also pray and ask God what he wants of them. If the answer after prayer is “no” then fine.

Excellent. Then you don’t tell anyone that x or y is selfish, but that it is up to the couple to determine whether or not to they have just reason to avoid…with God’s help of course. Sounds perfect and in line with church teaching afaik.

I think the problem lies when others judge whether someone else has just reason. It is not for us to determine.

In essence we should never close the door absolutely. If we don’t ask God every month how can we listen for his answer?

I don’t necessarily disagree, but I do think there are lots of situations where a couple can discern that the door should be closed absolutely and permanently–a perfect example exists in this forum now. But for most who decide to delay due to stress/money/etc, yeah I think an ongoing assessment is the correct move.

I am sure you are a fantastic NFP teacher!

 

[maryjk]

Forum, there is a serious problem with the way NFP concerns are handled here. Last night I couldn’t sleep and, hoping to do something productive in advance of my coming wedding, read pretty much every thread with “NFP” in the title made in the last two years.

I saw threads made by men and women who were venting, complaining, and pouring out their hearts. Regardless of the words they used, the underlying message visible to anyone with the sense God gave to a goat was “Help me make sense of this suffering.” Often these people were suffering out of love of Christ, the Church, and their spouses, without being able to articulate why.

The most common themes of the responses they received were:
-You’re only suffering because you’ve been sinful in the past.
-You’re only suffering because x,y, and z are wrong with your marriage.
-Your reasons for avoiding pregnancy are probably insufficient.
-Stop whining, it’s not that hard.
-My problems are worse than yours.
-If you had read Humanae Vitae, you would have no problems.
-You’re just being emotional.
-Ugh, this topic again.

If you see a thread about NFP and consider responding with one of these sentiments, please do everyone a favor and donate your keyboard to a local thrift shop. For many people, the pursuit of chastity is how they most emulate Christ crucified. When you spit on their struggles, you are spitting on the one they’re trying to be like. They come here asking for an ounce of compassion (which some precious few commenters did express) and for the most part they receive judgment.

Suffering is an inherent part of Christian life and of NFP. Let’s be real about that and help each other see the value of and virtue in suffering for love.

Most of the time, when a new poster posts about NFP, it seems, that their thread runs something like this.

OP: My wife REALLY can’t get pregnant.

Response: I’m so sorry. Learn NFP

OP: But you don’t understand, she REALLY can’t get pregnant. (Then he posts her entire medical history.) SEE. She really really can’t get pregnant. It will kill her.

Response: I’m so sorry. That sounds bad. Learn NFP, use the most stringent rules. Or abstain.

OP: You’re not getting this. She REALLY can’t get pregnant. I think we should use (fill in the blank.) Because I NEED sex.

Response: Yes, I get it. My wife is in a similar spot. Learn NFP. You will have a better chance of not getting pregnant AND you won’t be sinning by using ABC .

OP: I NEED SEX. (then choose one: God made me this way or All men are this way)

Response: (Well at this point, the thread normally devolves into one side telling him that he should love his wife regardless of her medical problems or to find a priest (hoping that he will tell the OP the facts.)Or they just tell him to grow up, since they are also using the strictest rules)

So, I think most people start out with compassion, but loose it after a while. We sit here thinking about those 6 months, just a year ago, when we had relations once. We think about the loving couple we saw at Mass last Sunday, where she is in a wheelchair and he hovers over her as her caregiver, both of them so much in love. We think of all of those couples we know with small children, running a small business, caring for a sick parent and obviously not spending any time alone and we wonder does the OP never see anyone like that?

And we loose patience. We wonder if the OP is a troll, just trying to prove that the Catholic church isn’t understanding or wants to dictate what happens in your bedroom. Or we wonder if the OP has really ever looked at NFP as an option. We feel sorry for the spouse, be it the husband or the wife, because generally the OP leaves with the attitude they came in with, NFP isn’t for them.

At least that is how I see most NFP threads started by a new member.

 

[silentfactor80]

mommamaree,

I’m not making any presumptions about whether it would be easier or harder for a woman to abstain than it is for a man. I was simply talking about how men are attached to their sexuality in terms of their very personal identity. Men and women from time to time have different needs or approaches to sex and that’s perfectly OK. Sometimes, of course, their minds are alike. That makes sense since we’re both human!

I assure you I’m well aware of the misguided notions of popular culture. Like I said, the idea that women, especially wives, should use the prospect of sex to “get something” out of their husbands is disgusting. It’s offensive on multiple levels, including implying that wives really don’t want to be physically intimate with their husbands for the sake of being intimate. I always keep in mind that Hebrew law refers to men making love to their wives as being a mitzvah. That is, a man is doing a good deed for another when he is intimate with his wife.

And I have an up-close view in my own life. I don’t know how “high” my drive is but I daresay that I’d be up for intimacy twice a day, every day. I have no idea if that’s high or low for a man. I know that my wife is lower than that on her non-fertile days but on her fertile days… well… we have to stay physically apart if we’re TTA. A kiss on the mouth is too much of a tease for her. So yeah, I know that the female sex drive is plenty strong and it’s a good thing that it’s strong. I can say with confidence that it ebbs and flows more than men generally do as a result of hormones, but when it’s “on”… yeah it is “ON” for real.

Sex is important for both spouses and abstinence for any period of time is hard for both. There is zero doubt about that. Men and women’s approach to sex can and frequently is different because men and women have different perspectives. That doesn’t make it any easier for one or the other to “go without” but it can mean that the emotional and mental damage of abstinence without the proper disposition to God’s will may be more severe for men if they don’t have other ways of connecting on deep levels with their wives.

As a man I am gravely troubled by this conversation. Saying your male identity is tied to you having sex with your wife and giving her pleasure so “you can feel good about yourself” is in a word SELFISH. It is like doing charity because you feel good about it and not because you really care about a fellow human beings suffering. What you are describing is the societal expectation that ties masculinity to lots of sex (even if with just 1 person). It has nothing to do with Catholicism or God. You make it sound as if a man cannot live without sex and it is his handicap. Priests don’t have sex (usually) and they get by just fine!

Yes, men are often doers. Here’s what you can do with your wife when you are abstinent that will deepen your relationship just as much.

1. Do the dishes for her
2. Cook a meal for her
3. Bring her flowers
4. Massage for those bunched up muscles (kids can stress a person)
5. Clean the house for her
6. Write a her something in reflection about her / your relationship with her
7. Plan a family activity
8. Dance with her

Seriously I could go on and on but do you get the point. Would you let another guy give your wife flowers out of love or write her a spicy love poem? There are things aside from sex that husbands / wives only do for each other. Sure you could pay someone to do SOME of those things but its the fact that YOU did it for HER that makes it special.

I am also sad to here that women think sex is all about the man’s “needs.” Sex is a means to garner intimate knowledge of each other. In fact in the Bible it does not say “Adam had sex with Eve” is say “And Adam KNEW his wife.” If you take the attitude that sex is all about the “mans needs” then how are you giving him the knowledge he seeks? If I get married I expect my wife to be a person who has desires and ways about her that she will let me know. To be quite honest if sex was all about me I would be bored as heck and that is a HUGE turn off.

 

[mommamaree]

As a man I am gravely troubled by this conversation. Saying your male identity is tied to you having sex with your wife and giving her pleasure so “you can feel good about yourself” is in a word SELFISH. It is like doing charity because you feel good about it and not because you really care about a fellow human beings suffering. What you are describing is the societal expectation that ties masculinity to lots of sex (even if with just 1 person). It has nothing to do with Catholicism or God. You make it sound as if a man cannot live without sex and it is his handicap. Priests don’t have sex (usually) and they get by just fine!

Yes, men are often doers. Here’s what you can do with your wife when you are abstinent that will deepen your relationship just as much.

1. Do the dishes for her
2. Cook a meal for her
3. Bring her flowers
4. Massage for those bunched up muscles (kids can stress a person)
5. Clean the house for her
6. Write a her something in reflection about her / your relationship with her
7. Plan a family activity
8. Dance with her

Seriously I could go on and on but do you get the point. Would you let another guy give your wife flowers out of love or write her a spicy love poem? There are things aside from sex that husbands / wives only do for each other. Sure you could pay someone to do SOME of those things but its the fact that YOU did it for HER that makes it special.

I am also sad to here that women think sex is all about the man’s “needs.” Sex is a means to garner intimate knowledge of each other. In fact in the Bible it does not say “Adam had sex with Eve” is say “And Adam KNEW his wife.” If you take the attitude that sex is all about the “mans needs” then how are you giving him the knowledge he seeks? If I get married I expect my wife to be a person who has desires and ways about her that she will let me know. To be quite honest if sex was all about me I would be bored as heck and that is a HUGE turn off.

SilentFactor,
Thank you for your thoughtful response. I read Bucket’s response to me earlier this morning and it troubled me so. I had decided to just not respond, because the many assertions he made disturbed my peace too much. I knew they were not true, but I am too weary of these stereotypes and assertions to be able to do anything other than feel sad and walk away from the conversation. You were able to articulate so much of what was in my heart. It greatly relieved me to see that others share my perspective. I have worked so hard to sift fact from fiction, Truth from societal conditioning, God’s plan from the ways of the world. I don’t want to lose what gains I have made, with God’s help, due to being exposed once again to those same assertions repackaged in Catholic wrapping paper. Thank you again from my heart.

 

[The_Bucket]

As a man I am gravely troubled by this conversation. Saying your male identity is tied to you having sex with your wife and giving her pleasure so “you can feel good about yourself” is in a word SELFISH. It is like doing charity because you feel good about it and not because you really care about a fellow human beings suffering. What you are describing is the societal expectation that ties masculinity to lots of sex (even if with just 1 person). It has nothing to do with Catholicism or God. You make it sound as if a man cannot live without sex and it is his handicap. Priests don’t have sex (usually) and they get by just fine!

When did I say that men have to have lots of sex to feel like men? I said that men are closely tied to their sexuality in ways that are different from how women are tied to their sexuality. That’s all I said. And we are indeed closely tied to our sexuality; why do we call it “intimacy”? As you yourself said, why does Bible refer to a patriarch “knowing” his wife? Because our sexual nature is one of the deepest parts of ourselves and can be a window into our souls. And please do keep in mind the nature of a mitzvah. It’s doing good for another person for the sake of the other person.

So I think we just got our wires crossed here. I’m not saying that men and women cannot live without sex. I’m saying that it can be hard to live without sex. But guess what? Live can be hard sometimes! Priests are called to celibacy yes, but I know they have struggles just like the laity. Even those who have been faithful to those vows their whole lives still have temptations. I’m merely acknowledging how using the gift of sexuality properly is difficult. I’m not saying that it is a “need” and that without it we’re not “real men” or something like that. We should not be slaves to our desires, even if those desires have a good end such as the sexual desire in marriage.

Yes, men are often doers. Here’s what you can do with your wife when you are abstinent that will deepen your relationship just as much.

1. Do the dishes for her
2. Cook a meal for her
3. Bring her flowers
4. Massage for those bunched up muscles (kids can stress a person)
5. Clean the house for her
6. Write a her something in reflection about her / your relationship with her
7. Plan a family activity
8. Dance with her

Seriously I could go on and on but do you get the point. Would you let another guy give your wife flowers out of love or write her a spicy love poem? There are things aside from sex that husbands / wives only do for each other. Sure you could pay someone to do SOME of those things but its the fact that YOU did it for HER that makes it special.

I totally concur with all of these things.

I am also sad to here that women think sex is all about the man’s “needs.” Sex is a means to garner intimate knowledge of each other. In fact in the Bible it does not say “Adam had sex with Eve” is say “And Adam KNEW his wife.” If you take the attitude that sex is all about the “mans needs” then how are you giving him the knowledge he seeks? If I get married I expect my wife to be a person who has desires and ways about her that she will let me know. To be quite honest if sex was all about me I would be bored as heck and that is a HUGE turn off.

And again, you’re quite right! I don’t see how we disagree. If I was leading you or mommamaree to think we did not agree on this matter, I sincerely apologize. I don’t know how I did it but I had no intent to do so. I was just trying to say that men and women are different but their sexual natures are both powerful and intimate.

 

[silentfactor80]

When did I say that men have to have lots of sex to feel like men? I said that men are closely tied to their sexuality in ways that are different from how women are tied to their sexuality. That’s all I said. And we are indeed closely tied to our sexuality; why do we call it “intimacy”? As you yourself said, why does Bible refer to a patriarch “knowing” his wife? Because our sexual nature is one of the deepest parts of ourselves and can be a window into our souls. And please do keep in mind the nature of a mitzvah. It’s doing good for another person for the sake of the other person.

So I think we just got our wires crossed here. I’m not saying that men and women cannot live without sex. I’m saying that it can be hard to live without sex. But guess what? Live can be hard sometimes! Priests are called to celibacy yes, but I know they have struggles just like the laity. Even those who have been faithful to those vows their whole lives still have temptations. I’m merely acknowledging how using the gift of sexuality properly is difficult. I’m not saying that it is a “need” and that without it we’re not “real men” or something like that. We should not be slaves to our desires, even if those desires have a good end such as the sexual desire in marriage.

This is the part that you are not quite clear. Men and women are equally tied to their sexuality. Have you been watching the latest contraception debate waging in US? It is not being fought by men! It is women that want it and they want it because they want to have sex! Women are sexual beings too. The difference between men and women is that women are more easily distracted. Men’s brains tend to compartmentalize meaning we can focus on 1 thing and all the other things going wrong in our lives don’t affect our performance in that 1 thing. For women however, everything is connected. If she had a bad day at work there is a good chance she will not be interested in sex that evening. Likewise, if the kids drove her crazy all day the last thing she may want is to have fun in the covers.

I don’t think its any harder or easier for women to be abstinent. If all is going well in a woman’s life she’s at no more an advantage than a man. I think a couple who is in tune with each others inner most person find it manageable to be abstinent. I am not saying it is easy but either man or woman can manage it equally. The danger in your thinking is that it quietly ok’s infidelity if a woman is not giving sex. Most guys that have an affair say its because they don’t feel emotionally connected to their wives, not the sex. Myth busted! men.webmd.com/features/why-men-cheat

 

[Rico_S]

maryjk

There is no doubt some truth to what you say. Threads can develop in the manner you describe, although I could offer reasons they head that way

And we loose patience.

I lose my patience with my kids too often. I am terrible about it. My oldest is not a teenager and she is as stubborn as her mother (which is ridiculously stubborn). She is can be so wrong about something and will argue until she is blue in the face that my view is absurd and she is correct. When I lose my cool I almost never reach her. I will say harsh things to get her attention and it serves only to entrench her deeper in her…wrongness. Once I have lost patience and start down that path, I have lost the battle.

I would propose that when people lose their patience on the forums a similar thing happens. You simply aren’t going to make headway with harsh, in your face pronouncements…no matter how much truth they contain.

Also, I think people that come here looking for advice are not nearly as developed in their faith life as most here. They do not have the same understanding of church teachings and alignment of conscience with those teaching as people like yourself. It may be difficult to deal with such differences—from either side. I think it is helpful to remember that there is often a big gap and that you cannot bridge this gap by simply stating church teaching. People arrive to where you are via a process.

 

[The_Bucket]

This is the part that you are not quite clear. Men and women are equally tied to their sexuality. Have you been watching the latest contraception debate waging in US? It is not being fought by men! It is women that want it and they want it because they want to have sex! Women are sexual beings too. The difference between men and women is that women are more easily distracted. Men’s brains tend to compartmentalize meaning we can focus on 1 thing and all the other things going wrong in our lives don’t affect our performance in that 1 thing. For women however, everything is connected. If she had a bad day at work there is a good chance she will not be interested in sex that evening. Likewise, if the kids drove her crazy all day the last thing she may want is to have fun in the covers.

Yeah I think we’re pretty close to being on the same page here. We’re tied to our sexuality in different ways. That’s all I’m saying. And I’m also noting that the male identity frequently is attached to virility and the female identity is tied to fertility. They’re slightly different things but they’re all quite powerful.

The danger in your thinking is that it quietly ok’s infidelity if a woman is not giving sex. Most guys that have an affair say its because they don’t feel emotionally connected to their wives, not the sex. Myth busted! men.webmd.com/features/why-men-cheat

I certainly never intended to quietly OK infidelity and I don’t think I was doing that. I’m quite aware that men cheat because they lose the emotional connection; it’s why most people, men or women, cheat. In many cases, sex is extremely important to that emotional connection. When a man is “shot down” by his wife for sex, he feels emotionally rejected. Infidelity caused by a lack of sex is frequently not caused by a man believing he’s not “getting enough” from his wife but more that he feels totally emotionally disconnected from her. It’s not about physical pleasure but emotional connection. Men take rejection from sex really, really personally. I have no earthly idea about what it’s like for a woman to be rejected sexually by her husband so I will not try to make a comparison or even guess which gender generally takes it harder.

 

[silentfactor80]

Yeah I think we’re pretty close to being on the same page here. We’re tied to our sexuality in different ways. That’s all I’m saying. And I’m also noting that the male identity frequently is attached to virility and the female identity is tied to fertility. They’re slightly different things but they’re all quite powerful.

I certainly never intended to quietly OK infidelity and I don’t think I was doing that. I’m quite aware that men cheat because they lose the emotional connection; it’s why most people, men or women, cheat. In many cases, sex is extremely important to that emotional connection. When a man is “shot down” by his wife for sex, he feels emotionally rejected. Infidelity caused by a lack of sex is frequently not caused by a man believing he’s not “getting enough” from his wife but more that he feels totally emotionally disconnected from her. It’s not about physical pleasure but emotional connection. Men take rejection from sex really, really personally. I have no earthly idea about what it’s like for a woman to be rejected sexually by her husband so I will not try to make a comparison or even guess which gender generally takes it harder.

This is the cause of men not being direct with our feelings because society says its unmanly to do so. After all, who wants emotional men if you want to send them off to war to protect the land? Societies interest in secular gender roles is VERY selfish and oftentimes damaging to both men and women. If you feel emotionally rejected then there it is likely something is wrong under the hood and you need to fix it if you can. Do you really want to keep having sex with a woman that just plays the part for you? That’s like living a lie.

I saw an article not to long ago by a woman whose husband said no once. She said she felt so hurt by it she would never say no again. In fact I have a friend whose wife was freaking out thinking they lost the spark because he wasn’t into sex for a few months. I think it affects women the same but since men are expected to initiate the rejection is obviously directed at us. They have even done studies on dating that when women approach men, the men are more picky.