Rally at archdiocese backs ousted Eastside Catholic High School vice principal Mark Zmuda

[stewstew03]

“Demonstrators held signs and chanted slogans such as ‘Love always wins,’ turning what started as one school’s personnel decision [to terminate a gay man who married his partner] into a rallying cry for changes in the Catholic church’s stance on gay and lesbian issues, including same-sex marriage.”

More here.

 

[Lost_Sheep]

Every one of those protesting students should be expelled permanently and not be allowed to return.

 

[TRH1292]

It might not be lack of catechesis so much as it is unbelief.

 

[Coatimundi]

80 people showed up at the rally. But how many of those people are actually students at the Catholic high school? According to the news article, a co-organizer of the rally is named Shaun Knittel. He is well past high school age, and identifies himself as “an openly gay leader in Seattle’s LGBTQ community”
socialoutreachseattle.com/about/leadership/

 

[RPRPsych]

It might not be lack of catechesis so much as it is unbelief.

True. Some of these young people may know the truth, but willfully reject it.

 

[RPRPsych]

80 people showed up at the rally. But how many of those people are actually students at the Catholic high school? According to the news article, a co-organizer of the rally is named Shaun Knittel. He is well past high school age, and identifies himself as “an openly gay leader in Seattle’s LGBTQ community”
socialoutreachseattle.com/about/leadership/

Once again, I’m impressed by your ability to get to the facts in a case.

Given what you’ve posted, it’s possible that the “LGBTQ” movement (it sounds like some sort of magic word from a text game, like “XYZZY” or “ZRBLM” ) may be intentionally whipping up “outrage” (= astroturfing) to embarrass the Church or make it seem like Catholics are on their side.

 

[SuperLuigi]

Any Catholic at that rally is showing a lack of being properly catechized, or maybe they are just fine with going along with grave matter and even committing mortal sin.

 

[Ender]

“Demonstrators held signs and chanted slogans such as ‘Love always wins,’ turning what started as one school’s personnel decision [to terminate a gay man who married his partner] into a rallying cry for changes in the Catholic church’s stance on gay and lesbian issues, including same-sex marriage.”

It is generally a mistake to believe that any secular newspaper has even the smallest understanding of Catholicism, and this article is no exception to that generalization. It displays a colossal ignorance to assert that the church has a position on “gay and lesbian issues” that she could change.The knowledge which the Church offers to man has its origin not in any speculation of her own, however sublime, but in the word of God which she has received in faith. (Fides et Ration #45)

As Teacher, she never tires of proclaiming the moral norm… The Church is in no way the author or the arbiter of this norm. (Veritatis Splendor #95)
It is perhaps unsurprising that the secular media doesn’t understand this point given that there are apparently a sizable number of Catholics who don’t understand it either.

Ender

 

[robert_chacon]

80 people showed up at the rally. But how many of those people are actually students at the Catholic high school? According to the news article, a co-organizer of the rally is named Shaun Knittel. He is well past high school age, and identifies himself as “an openly gay leader in Seattle’s LGBTQ community”
socialoutreachseattle.com/about/leadership/

Wow! Only 80 people? Assuming everyone of those people were school students, that still does not seem to be an overwhelming or significant show of support for this teacher who broke his contract.

So, more likely, a number of these protestors were non Catholic , non students. And of the students , some were probably non Catholic students who simply dont accept the Churchs teaching on much of anything.

This protest may have had very little to do with the nature of the catechetical instruction, and more likely a pathetic effort by the LGBT community to try again to portray a negative and split Church. Look at the recent desecration by LGBT activists at Christmastime Mass at the Cologne Cathedral! Absolute evidence that such activists completely destroy their own credibility in being able to even suggest what is right and just for anyone! The fact they attempt to judge the Church as being unjust is perverse and laughable!

 

[MacBP]

Wow! Only 80 people? Assuming everyone of those people were school students, that still does not seem to be an overwhelming or significant show of support for this teacher who broke his contract.

So, more likely, a number of these protestors were non Catholic , non students. And of the students , some were probably non Catholic students who simply dont accept the Churchs teaching on much of anything.

This protest may have had very little to do with the nature of the catechetical instruction, and more likely a pathetic effort by the LGBT community to try again to portray a negative and split Church. Look at the recent desecration by LGBT activists at Christmastime Mass at the Cologne Cathedral! Absolute evidence that such activists completely destroy their own credibility in being able to even suggest what is right and just for anyone! The fact they attempt to judge the Church as being unjust is perverse and laughable!

Oh, I don’t think 80 people is as insignificant as you might believe. Between part time jobs, after school activities, and general apathy, I think getting 80 high school kids to protest anything is an accomplishment. Furthermore, there was an internet petition circulating a little while ago that has over 30, 000 petitions (found here). I would be a mistake to see anything but an overwhelming show of support for the gentleman in question.

I can’t speak for the situation in the US, but in Canada, assuming that Catholic High School students have a lack of cathechesis is a fairly safe assumption. Recently I was talking to a young woman on a local Catholic High School’s student council who was in charge of coordinating the student masses (finding lectures, ushers, servers, etc). I asked her if she offered confession before the mass, and she told me that she didn’t know the Catholic Church still did confession. Now, this may be an anomaly, but I do believe the Catholic school system needs a lot of work.

I think is a a perfect teaching moment. How great would it be if someone actually sat down with these young people and explained what the Church actually teaches about homosexuality, marriage, and people with homosexual inclination (Catholic school or no, I bet this is the first time they’ve heard it). They’ll probably disagree, but I honestly think that anyone who actually listens to what the Church teaches on the issue would know that the Catholic Church is not teaching from a place of hate. The fact that the Advocate could give Pope Francis the person of the year award despite acknowledging his opposition to homosexual activity signals to me that we can do this. These kids are thirsting for justice. There hearts are in the right place, if not their heads.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

I used to live in seattle. Eastside Catholic is academically an amazing school but is only nominally “Catholic”

And this is part of the problem. This person was a Vice Principal and swim coach. And one who married his “partner.” Why is it that Catholic institutions hire someone like this in the first place? IT isn’t like they hired a Catholic in good standing, based on character and morals and were blindsided by this turn of events. They probably patted themselves on the back for making such an inclusive and “progressive” hire. Well, perhaps hire a good Catholic person next time to be the VP of one of the most prestigious Catholic High Schools in the west.

 

[Viewer]

First things first, don’t shoot the messenger. I’ve made an account purely to comment on this, because I would hope to clear up a misconception.

Though I may not be in the USA and base my views on Europeans, very often when I encounter of young catholics expressing doubt or disapproval of Church teaching regarding same sex marriage poor catechism is rarely the cause. Certainly, there are those who are deficient in some areas (The Immaculate conception especially ) but their understanding of marriage as the Church teaches is without flaw.

Ironically it’s not because the Catholic church has taught them it, but because it’s been quoted by various LGBT movements with nothing short of glee in full form along with one particular quote from the now Pope Emeritus, the one describing practicing homosexuals as intrinsically disordered and morally evil. The LGBT movement hardly needs to lift a finger beyond sharing that here, many of my students are outraged and disgusted by it. A couple have gay relatives, while others have seen the discrimination homosexuals suffer at the hands of the rest of the community at times. They see a minority within todays secular society campaigning for what seems to be equal standing within the law, only to be under what incessant attack by a variety of native and foreign faith organizations

I ran an anonymous survey along a few of my classes along with a youth group I used to run about a year ago. Nothing too challenging on it, but enough to identify if the taker knew church teaching and their personal stances on a variety of issues.

On many topics the church has had outstanding success in youths (14-18) accepting it’s teaching, abortion was condemned unanimously but for one reply (out of roughly 280-300 responses) but one issue stuck out .

89%. 89% were in favor of same sex marriages. They know the teaching, and they unashamedly reject it. I won’t bore you with a list of reasons but summarized it is deemed “repugnant”, “backwards”, “hate inspiring”, “insane” and “tyrannical”.

“The Church is out of touch with any sense of reality, they must lose their minds sat in the Vatican all their lives. It’s [The Catholic Church] more than happy to tolerate usury and go against it’s own teaching when it suits itself so why not queers?” was one that struck a cord with me, because the girl in question was of a devout family in regular church attendance.

Don’t think for one moment youths do not know the Churches stance, where I am it is impossible to have not heard it screeched at high pitch across social media, schools, churches and an increasingly vocal inter-denominational ministry. Futile of course, since that in itself only seems to vilify the Church further and push people into greater favor with the SSM movement.

The overwhelming majority of the laity within the UK are in opposition to church teaching over this matter. Don’t think it’s poor catechism, because they likely know the sections regarding marriage better than you do.

Note: I’m an RE teacher within a Catholic school, and the sheer level of pro-gay sentiment has made many of my colleagues within the subject area wary of raising the topic.

 

[CarolNoel]

Guess they need to start letting the so called Catholic schools that call themselves Catholic and don’t teach and practice the faith lose their designation as being Catholic like some Catholic Colleges and Universities have.

 

[Lormar]

Once again, I’m impressed by your ability to get to the facts in a case.

Given what you’ve posted, it’s possible that the “LGBTQ” movement (it sounds like some sort of magic word from a text game, like “XYZZY” or “ZRBLM” ) may be intentionally whipping up “outrage” (= astroturfing) to embarrass the Church or make it seem like Catholics are on their side.

Don’t forget that they are very well organized. My thought when I read this is: who whipped up this protest? When it comes to the young people, it doesn’t take much to rally them to hop on a bandwagon.

 

[irishpatrick]

First things first, don’t shoot the messenger. I’ve made an account purely to comment on this, because I would hope to clear up a misconception.

Though I may not be in the USA and base my views on Europeans, very often when I encounter of young catholics expressing doubt or disapproval of Church teaching regarding same sex marriage poor catechism is rarely the cause. Certainly, there are those who are deficient in some areas (The Immaculate conception especially ) but their understanding of marriage as the Church teaches is without flaw.

Ironically it’s not because the Catholic church has taught them it, but because it’s been quoted by various LGBT movements with nothing short of glee in full form along with one particular quote from the now Pope Emeritus, the one describing practicing homosexuals as intrinsically disordered and morally evil. The LGBT movement hardly needs to lift a finger beyond sharing that here, many of my students are outraged and disgusted by it. A couple have gay relatives, while others have seen the discrimination homosexuals suffer at the hands of the rest of the community at times. They see a minority within todays secular society campaigning for what seems to be equal standing within the law, only to be under what incessant attack by a variety of native and foreign faith organizations

I ran an anonymous survey along a few of my classes along with a youth group I used to run about a year ago. Nothing too challenging on it, but enough to identify if the taker knew church teaching and their personal stances on a variety of issues.

On many topics the church has had outstanding success in youths (14-18) accepting it’s teaching, abortion was condemned unanimously but for one reply (out of roughly 280-300 responses) but one issue stuck out .

89%. 89% were in favor of same sex marriages. They know the teaching, and they unashamedly reject it. I won’t bore you with a list of reasons but summarized it is deemed “repugnant”, “backwards”, “hate inspiring”, “insane” and “tyrannical”.

“The Church is out of touch with any sense of reality, they must lose their minds sat in the Vatican all their lives. It’s [The Catholic Church] more than happy to tolerate usury and go against it’s own teaching when it suits itself so why not queers?” was one that struck a cord with me, because the girl in question was of a devout family in regular church attendance.

Don’t think for one moment youths do not know the Churches stance, where I am it is impossible to have not heard it screeched at high pitch across social media, schools, churches and an increasingly vocal inter-denominational ministry. Futile of course, since that in itself only seems to vilify the Church further and push people into greater favor with the SSM movement.

The overwhelming majority of the laity within the UK are in opposition to church teaching over this matter. Don’t think it’s poor catechism, because they likely know the sections regarding marriage better than you do.

Note: I’m an RE teacher within a Catholic school, and the sheer level of pro-gay sentiment has made many of my colleagues within the subject area wary of raising the topic.

Thank you for a detailed response.

I will say that it is easy to “know” certain teachings and passages from the Catechism and the Bible, without truly understanding the reasons for those passages and teachings. I know many non-Catholic Christians who “appear” to be Bible experts, yet they miss so many deeper meanings and passages that help illuminate what Scripture is saying.

I trust what you are saying is true, that those young people can recite the teachings quite well–yet that does not mean they truly understand. There is a difference between knowing something exists (for example: electricity exists), and actually understanding how and why it exists (how many know how electricity works). It takes deeper study to understand why God set marriage to be one man and one woman, and why that is the best for all concerned…it cannot be learned from simply knowing the facts of what the Church teaches…it must be studied in depth to understand fully, and I believe that is where much catechesis has failed–we are not providing the “why” to the teachings and the full depth to the “why” of these teachings.

 

[Ender]

“The Church is out of touch with any sense of reality, they must lose their minds sat in the Vatican all their lives.”…Don’t think for one moment youths do not know the Churches stance…

If people believe “the church” (e.g. those sitting in the Vatican) decides these issues then it is no wonder they don’t accept this teaching. The wonder is that they accept any teaching at all, believing as they apparently do that church teaching can be whatever the current pope and his advisers want it to be.

There are two claims at work here: (1) the church is guided by the Holy Spirit in determining God’s will, and (2) God has condemned homosexual behavior. The problem for dissenters is that if they reject #2 then by default they have rejected #1, but if the first claim is false then it is illogical to be Catholic.

The problem is not with the church being out of touch with reality but of the students being out of touch with rational thinking.

Ender

 

[McCall1981]

If people believe “the church” (e.g. those sitting in the Vatican) decides these issues then it is no wonder they don’t accept this teaching. The wonder is that they accept any teaching at all, believing as they apparently do that church teaching can be whatever the current pope and his advisers want it to be.

There are two claims at work here: (1) the church is guided by the Holy Spirit in determining God’s will, and (2) God has condemned homosexual behavior. The problem for dissenters is that if they reject #2 then by default they have rejected #1, but if the first claim is false then it is illogical to be Catholic.

The problem is not with the church being out of touch with reality but of the students being out of touch with rational thinking.

Ender

This is really well said

 

[Viewer]

I will say that it is easy to “know” certain teachings and passages from the Catechism and the Bible, without truly understanding the reasons for those passages and teachings. I know many non-Catholic Christians who “appear” to be Bible experts, yet they miss so many deeper meanings and passages that help illuminate what Scripture is saying.

I can agree with the sentiment. Knowledge of the bible itself has never been very strong amongst the students other than a select few “clobber quotes” (condemnations of various activities, not exclusively LGBT by any means) but the teachings they produce, tradition or Papal statements are known very well.

I trust what you are saying is true, that those young people can recite the teachings quite well–yet that does not mean they truly understand. There is a difference between knowing something exists (for example: electricity exists), and actually understanding how and why it exists (how many know how electricity works). It takes deeper study to understand why God set marriage to be one man and one woman, and why that is the best for all concerned…it cannot be learned from simply knowing the facts of what the Church teaches…it must be studied in depth to understand fully, and I believe that is where much catechesis has failed–we are not providing the “why” to the teachings and the full depth to the “why” of these teachings.

You may be right here to an extent, and I can see this in some children. Even the least gifted amongst them can tell me that abortion is deemed a terrible sin (albeit not always described why very well).

Homosexuality and contraception however?:dts: They see the evidence, they have it explained to them but they still reject it. It’s not so much a sense of moral relativism but rather a rejection of absolutism. Homosexual teachings are routinely deemed as hateful and oppressive (The Spanish Inquisition burning “Sodomites” often comes up ), Contraception is deemed a “lesser evil” (“Soon as God starts giving me a pay packet I’ll start pumping out more kids” was one response the parish priest received from a parent! ) . Divorce is a bit different and disinterest seems to overtake any approval or condemnation

The past ten years have seen some incredible shifts in mindset I certainly never saw coming. It looks like it’s not only the UK experiencing it.

 

[Viewer]

There are two claims at work here: (1) the church is guided by the Holy Spirit in determining God’s will, and (2) God has condemned homosexual behavior. The problem for dissenters is that if they reject #2 then by default they have rejected #1, but if the first claim is false then it is illogical to be Catholic.

Ender

I belive what she was getting at wasn’t so much the source of the instruction, but rather the churches (perceived) selective interpretation. I actually spoke to this girl at great length on the topic (I was rather surprised to say the very least to hear it come from her).

The Church being guided by the holy spirit is a concept that is lost on a very small number of my students (Not rejected, they just don’t seem to grasp it easily with the number of different church schools within the area probably don’t help any claims to authority). More stunningly for myself is a good number of the older ones rejecting Papal Infallibility outright uch: (I would love to know who it is that’s been passing around Kung’s “Infalliable?” and “The Borgias”, they don’t bloody look at my recommended reading except under duress!). “He’s only a man, in a line of succession yeah but just human” or something of the sort usually backing up the refutal.

It’s not so much the authority or hierarchy they are objecting to, it’s the concept that homosexuality is anything other than morally neutral that seems to spark a riot and invite doubt on other things.

I’m under no illusion if the church had said “We love the gays” (Clearly I know it can’t) there would be less if any objection to other matters.

 

[irishpatrick]

I can agree with the sentiment. Knowledge of the bible itself has never been very strong amongst the students other than a select few “clobber quotes” (condemnations of various activities, not exclusively LGBT by any means) but the teachings they produce, tradition or Papal statements are known very well.

You may be right here to an extent, and I can see this in some children. Even the least gifted amongst them can tell me that abortion is deemed a terrible sin (albeit not always described why very well).

Homosexuality and contraception however?:dts: They see the evidence, they have it explained to them but they still reject it. It’s not so much a sense of moral relativism but rather a rejection of absolutism. Homosexual teachings are routinely deemed as hateful and oppressive (The Spanish Inquisition burning “Sodomites” often comes up ), Contraception is deemed a “lesser evil” (“Soon as God starts giving me a pay packet I’ll start pumping out more kids” was one response the parish priest received from a parent! ) . Divorce is a bit different and disinterest seems to overtake any approval or condemnation

The past ten years have seen some incredible shifts in mindset I certainly never saw coming. It looks like it’s not only the UK experiencing it.

Those are very good points, and they must be resolved in a productive manner. It is my belief that most people who say those things really do not have a deep understanding of the “why.” I also believe they just do not understand what is at stake, and they most certainly do not seem to understand that the Catholic faith truly is the one full faith as Christ gave the world. Everyone knows they cannot step in front of a moving bus, and they know why–they will get struck by the bus. In these matters of faith people in a modern world cannot “see” the consequence, so they rationalize and ignore the many reasons why.

I would be willing to guess that most of those people do not understand why Christ had to die on the cross (other than the usual: to save us from our sins teachings). They also will not likely understand why the existence of Purgatory is both real, and a sign of God’s mercy and love, etc. Again, it is easy to know and remember certain facts…quite another thing to understand why. When people understand the “why,” a true conversion takes place.