Rally at archdiocese backs ousted Eastside Catholic High School vice principal Mark Zmuda

[Hoosier_Daddy]

First things first, don’t shoot the messenger. I’ve made an account purely to comment on this, because I would hope to clear up a misconception.

Though I may not be in the USA and base my views on Europeans, very often when I encounter of young catholics expressing doubt or disapproval of Church teaching regarding same sex marriage poor catechism is rarely the cause. Certainly, there are those who are deficient in some areas (The Immaculate conception especially ) but their understanding of marriage as the Church teaches is without flaw.

Ironically it’s not because the Catholic church has taught them it, but because it’s been quoted by various LGBT movements with nothing short of glee in full form along with one particular quote from the now Pope Emeritus, the one describing practicing homosexuals as intrinsically disordered and morally evil. The LGBT movement hardly needs to lift a finger beyond sharing that here, many of my students are outraged and disgusted by it. A couple have gay relatives, while others have seen the discrimination homosexuals suffer at the hands of the rest of the community at times. They see a minority within todays secular society campaigning for what seems to be equal standing within the law, only to be under what incessant attack by a variety of native and foreign faith organizations

I ran an anonymous survey along a few of my classes along with a youth group I used to run about a year ago. Nothing too challenging on it, but enough to identify if the taker knew church teaching and their personal stances on a variety of issues.

On many topics the church has had outstanding success in youths (14-18) accepting it’s teaching, abortion was condemned unanimously but for one reply (out of roughly 280-300 responses) but one issue stuck out .

89%. 89% were in favor of same sex marriages. They know the teaching, and they unashamedly reject it. I won’t bore you with a list of reasons but summarized it is deemed “repugnant”, “backwards”, “hate inspiring”, “insane” and “tyrannical”.

“The Church is out of touch with any sense of reality, they must lose their minds sat in the Vatican all their lives. It’s [The Catholic Church] more than happy to tolerate usury and go against it’s own teaching when it suits itself so why not queers?” was one that struck a cord with me, because the girl in question was of a devout family in regular church attendance.

Don’t think for one moment youths do not know the Churches stance, where I am it is impossible to have not heard it screeched at high pitch across social media, schools, churches and an increasingly vocal inter-denominational ministry. Futile of course, since that in itself only seems to vilify the Church further and push people into greater favor with the SSM movement.

The overwhelming majority of the laity within the UK are in opposition to church teaching over this matter. Don’t think it’s poor catechism, because they likely know the sections regarding marriage better than you do.

Note: I’m an RE teacher within a Catholic school, and the sheer level of pro-gay sentiment has made many of my colleagues within the subject area wary of raising the topic.

That is an interesting post. I would disagree that they “know” Church teaching on marriage. If you asked. What marriage is they would give you a variety of things but mostly two people in love committing to each other would be the standard answer.

People do not even understand marriage itself anymore. So they certainly do not understand Church teaching on the matter. They may have been told by some biased organizations or media what the Church teaches but they almost never understand “why”.

With that post I see a vague description of the problem and some inference. But I do not really see the point. What is it that you are trying to say.

The Church needs to be more vocal about this issue?
The Church is wrong on this issue because so many people disagree?
The Church should avoid the issue?

What. What is your observation with the data you compiled.

With divorce and contraception so prevalent in our world, marriage has gotten twisted and misunderstood. This is manifesting itself in this “battle” of gay rights but ultimately it touches so many other issues as well.

It is demonic and should be fought as such.

 

[Lormar]

It is demonic and should be fought as such.

No truer words. What would you suggest doing?

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

No truer words. What would you suggest doing?

Clearly and emphatically stating Gods Will. Standing up in the public square and calling a spade a spade without fear of being judged a bigot. And you will be. And in america you could lose your job or your friends or family for it. But historically people have DIED to proclaim the gospel. Now, we worry about being called a homophobe, we cower, we have no rebuttal to the idiotic rhetoric of the demonic side. We are told to keep our faith in our own homes, we are told to keep it even out of the pews. Churches are threatened with fines, taxes and protests if they dare speak the Holy Truth.

Priests:
Preach about it.
Bishops:
Support the priests.
Catechists:
Teach Why!
Catholics:
LIVE the faith both personally and vocally.

USE the sacrament of marriage to not only show others what it is but to create life.

And finally, pray. Fall down in adoration and pray. Arm yourself with the holy armour of God, use the sacraments often and pray!

 

[livingwordunity]

If people believe “the church” (e.g. those sitting in the Vatican) decides these issues then it is no wonder they don’t accept this teaching. The wonder is that they accept any teaching at all, believing as they apparently do that church teaching can be whatever the current pope and his advisers want it to be.

There are two claims at work here: (1) the church is guided by the Holy Spirit in determining God’s will, and (2) God has condemned homosexual behavior. The problem for dissenters is that if they reject #2 then by default they have rejected #1, but if the first claim is false then it is illogical to be Catholic.

The problem is not with the church being out of touch with reality but of the students being out of touch with rational thinking.

Ender

Very well said!

 

[Lormar]

Clearly and emphatically stating Gods Will. Standing up in the public square and calling a spade a spade without fear of being judged a bigot. And you will be. And in america you could lose your job or your friends or family for it. But historically people have DIED to proclaim the gospel. ** Now, we worry about being called a homophobe, we cower, we have no rebuttal to the idiotic rhetoric of the demonic side. We are told to keep our faith in our own homes, we are told to keep it even out of the pews. Churches are threatened with fines, taxes and protests if they dare speak the Holy Truth. **

Priests:
Preach about it.
Bishops:
Support the priests.
Catechists:
Teach Why!
Catholics:
LIVE the faith both personally and vocally.

USE the sacrament of marriage to not only show others what it is but to create life.

And finally, pray. Fall down in adoration and pray. Arm yourself with the holy armour of God, use the sacraments often and pray!

It is going to get much worse this year too. They have gained a lot of strength and, as I said on another thread, they are well, very well, organized.

 

[Viewer]

Those are very good points, and they must be resolved in a productive manner. It is my belief that most people who say those things really do not have a deep understanding of the “why.” I also believe they just do not understand what is at stake, and they most certainly do not seem to understand that the Catholic faith truly is the one full faith as Christ gave the world. Everyone knows they cannot step in front of a moving bus, and they know why–they will get struck by the bus. In these matters of faith people in a modern world cannot “see” the consequence, so they rationalize and ignore the many reasons why.

Ah…Thankfully universalism hasn’t really caught on within our community (I really do not need any more “alternative views” to argue against). The “why” as you call it has always been very difficult to transmit, some of the students do seem to get it if they haven’t already from their families but that number has nosedived in the past few years (in direct proportion with increasingly vitriolic statements against homosexuals no less), and some of those who did seem to know the “why” like that girl I mentioned…Well…She either doesn’t or rejects it anyway. I don’t know.

I would be willing to guess that most of those people do not understand why Christ had to die on the cross (other than the usual: to save us from our sins teachings). They also will not likely understand why the existence of Purgatory is both real, and a sign of God’s mercy and love, etc. Again, it is easy to know and remember certain facts…quite another thing to understand why. When people understand the “why,” a true conversion takes place.

Original sin and purgatory are suprisignly something that doesn’t seem to raise any eyebrows and goes unquestioned for the most part in my experience (The only time I believe it was ever questioned was by a Russian Orthodox student who used to attend, who of course do not accept these doctrines).

 

[Viewer]

That is an interesting post. I would disagree that they “know” Church teaching on marriage. If you asked. What marriage is they would give you a variety of things but mostly two people in love committing to each other would be the standard answer.

Nailed it, “Love is all you need to have a marriage”.

People do not even understand marriage itself anymore. So they certainly do not understand Church teaching on the matter. They may have been told by some biased organizations or media what the Church teaches but they almost never understand “why”.

I did think this, until I started getting 13 year olds quoting the Pope Emeritus word for word at me. It’s rather difficult for me to call their source biased when they’re technically telling the truth and directly quoting a statement.

With that post I see a vague description of the problem and some inference. But I do not really see the point. What is it that you are trying to say.

Sorry, I’m on my phone doing this at the moment, not exactly great for writing lengthy responses. . My intent was to disprove this myth that we’re not teaching our children the “party line” so to speak. Our children know the church teachings, and they don’t reject it out of ignorance, they reject it because they think it backward and cruel.

The Church needs to be more vocal about this issue?

Dear Almighty God no! Everything the Church has come out with so far has made it millions and millions of times worse! It’s not the Bible or tradition that’s causing the most outrage, it’s official Vatican and papal statements!

The Church is wrong on this issue because so many people disagree?

That is how it is viewed yes. The UK is democratic, and while it has a monarch (with no real power, note) it does not like taking orders from one, especially a foreign one who’s values stand at a polar opposite to present society.

The Church should avoid the issue?

What. What is your observation with the data you compiled.

In my honest opinion?..I think it’s too late for that. The Church has dug a massive hole for itself on this front, one which I don’t think it will be able to salvage. Silence would have rattled a few cages and caused some resentment (no more than usual) but it’s statements have done something very different this time. They’ve offended non-catholics without a doubt, but even within the faith youths (and more than a good few of the adults) are…I don’t know to describe it…Saddened? Appalled? One student described it in his response to my questionnaire that “The Church he loved and that did so much good was inspiring so much hate for something that does no harm to us”.

The Church can prevent this hole from turning into a grave without a doubt, but in the UK at least the battle against Same Sex Marriage is lost. Most of the faithful don’t even support the Church position anymore, and it’s only a very loud minority within a minority that still does.

With divorce and contraception so prevalent in our world, marriage has gotten twisted and misunderstood. This is manifesting itself in this “battle” of gay rights but ultimately it touches so many other issues as well.

Exactly. We it not for this doubt I can’t imagine I would be finding copies of “Infallible?” or “The Gay Gospels” being quoted at me by my students objecting to some of the core established tenants of our faith.

I don’t know what to suggest, but I do know this. With Same Sex Marriage becoming law (Under a CONSERVATIVE led government no less! ) in only a few months time, and with the prospect of a case forcing the Church of England to marry homosexual couples likely to win…

The Catholic Church is going to have a huge task on it’s hands no matter what path it takes next. Acceptance may not be an option for it, but outright denial isn’t either anymore.

I don’t envy the clergy’s position one bit, put it that way.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

It is going to get much worse this year too. They have gained a lot of strength and, as I said on another thread, they are well, very well, organized.

One of the ways that one can tell that this is sooooo demonic is the level of organization for such a small “group” And the fact that one cannot really explain it. The Pope has admitted that there is a “gay” lobby in the Church. And how powerful it is outside of the CHuch as well.

Look at us. With the economy, wars, future wars, and just the problems of running a country it is THE issue dominating our world. How did it come to this?

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Nailed it, “Love is all you need to have a marriage”.

I did think this, until I started getting 13 year olds quoting the Pope Emeritus word for word at me. It’s rather difficult for me to call their source biased when they’re technically telling the truth and directly quoting a statement.

Sorry, I’m on my phone doing this at the moment, not exactly great for writing lengthy responses. . My intent was to disprove this myth that we’re not teaching our children the “party line” so to speak. Our children know the church teachings, and they don’t reject it out of ignorance, they reject it because they think it backward and cruel.

Dear Almighty God no! Everything the Church has come out with so far has made it millions and millions of times worse! It’s not the Bible or tradition that’s causing the most outrage, it’s official Vatican and papal statements!

That is how it is viewed yes. The UK is democratic, and while it has a monarch (with no real power, note) it does not like taking orders from one, especially a foreign one who’s values stand at a polar opposite to present society.

In my honest opinion?..I think it’s too late for that. The Church has dug a massive hole for itself on this front, one which I don’t think it will be able to salvage. Silence would have rattled a few cages and caused some resentment (no more than usual) but it’s statements have done something very different this time. They’ve offended non-catholics without a doubt, but even within the children (and more than a good few of the adults) are…I don’t know to discribe it…Saddened? Appalled? One student described it in his response to my questionnaire that “The Church he loved and that did so much good was inspiring so much hate for something that does no harm to us”.

The Church can prevent this hole from turning into a grave without a doubt, but in the UK at least the battle against Same Sex Marriage is lost. Most of the faithful don’t even support the Church position anymore, and it’s only a very loud minority within a minority that still does.

Exactly. We it not for this doubt I can’t imagine I would be finding copies of “Infallible?” or “The Gay Gospels” being quoted at me by my students objecting to some of the core established tenants of our faith.

I don’t know what to suggest, but I do know this. With Same Sex Marriage becoming law (Under a CONSERVATIVE led government no less! ) in only a few months time, and with the prospect of a case forcing the Church of England to marry homosexual couples likely to win…

The Catholic Church is going to have a huge task on it’s hands no matter what path it takes next. Acceptance may not be an option for it, but outright denial isn’t either anymore.

I don’t envy the clergy’s position one bit, put it that way.

When you say things like

Acceptance may not be an option for it,

And talk about how the CHurch should NOT be more vocal. And that outright denial is not an option I wonder about your intentions.

Perhaps it is best to just come out and say what you want to say. I still have trouble reading between the lines of your post.

It is interesting that you note they quote BXVI but not THIS Pope, who has said way more controversial things as Pope and cardinal than the previous one. He has said homosexual adoption,is child abuse. He has said it is demonic. And just recently he told a Bishop to speak out against it basically as loud as he could.

If you are indeed a leader and teacher of the faith to youth. And you think Dear almighty God no!!! About being more outspoken on this issue then I wonder if that is really a good way to be practicing the responsibility of faith formation.

Honestly, if at my parish a religious educator had that response I would question their own ability to teach authentic faith.

It just shocked me is all.

And you are still vague. How about this one.

You are Pope, what would you suggest we do?

 

[Lormar]

One of the ways that one can tell that this is sooooo demonic is the level of organization for such a small “group” And the fact that one cannot really explain it. The Pope has admitted that there is a “gay” lobby in the Church. And how powerful it is outside of the CHuch as well.

Look at us. With the economy, wars, future wars, and just the problems of running a country it is THE issue dominating our world. How did it come to this?

The Church is the greatest single force left in this world and the only true obstacle to their agenda and plans. The media is determined to divide and conquer us. Judging from too many threads on this forum, a good job is being done. We mustn’t let them turn us against each other.

Also, this organized group make no bones about coming on to forums such as this and they are very skilled in how to turn an argument to their advantage or how to disrupt it.

 

[Viewer]

And talk about how the CHurch should NOT be more vocal. And that outright denial is not an option I wonder about your intentions.

I know HoosierDaddy…But I signed up here today just to share my observations. They are not without reflection and review, but I only have one intention. I want my students to feel the same love of God I do, and understand and take to their hearts what we are as Catholics. It’s not only a faith which is important enough reason to know, but it’s part of who they are and what they should be looking towards.

It literally pains me to see their hostility.

Perhaps it is best to just come out and say what you want to say. I still have trouble reading between the lines of your post.

My opinions are irrelevant really, I’m just sharing my observations to try and dispel some confusion (rather than create more).

It is interesting that you note they quote BXVI but not THIS Pope, who has said way more controversial things as Pope and cardinal than the previous one.

“Who am I to judge?”…Oh yes, that’s practically a slogan slapped everywhere these days. I’ve found him to be more controversial than Benedict ever was, but for some reason that doesn’t seem to gave caught on with the students yet.

He has said homosexual adoption,is child abuse. He has said it is demonic. And just recently he told a Bishop to speak out against it basically as loud as he could.

…Eeeeexcept stuff like this. BXVI merley has more material out there in print (and stockled by our library) than Francis does (Yet, I’f I’m still here in a few months I might update if they do move onto him).

Are people disgusted? Yes, thankfully this doesn’t seem to be as well known as Homosexuals being “morally evil”.

If you are indeed a leader and teacher of the faith to youth. And you think Dear almighty God no!!! About being more outspoken on this issue then I wonder if that is really a good way to be practicing the responsibility of faith formation.

Honestly, if at my parish a religious educator had that response I would question their own ability to teach authentic faith.

It just shocked me is all.

No…I understand totally I have an obligation to teach the faith, that is without dispute. I teach to share what I hold dear, but at the same time I am watching sentiments change. I am watching the world view change every year and it is changing regardless to how I may wish it to be. It used to be only a few years ago that teaching Catholicism to youth born into the faith was a fairly streamlined and manageable affair, now I have more progress and less resistance with foreigners from other faiths to whom Catholicism is totally alien!

I obey my duties as they are ascribed to me, but that does not mean I cannot observe how they are revived or accepted.

You are Pope, what would you suggest we do?

This is a question I ask myself nearly every day after I teach the older students, and as of yet I do not know.

I cannot speak for the rest of the world but in the UK we are at a crossroads, that I cannot doubt. Homosexual marriage is to be recognized and protected by law, that much is certain now beyond any doubt and (in my opinion, judging from the church of England case in progress) it will come a time that religious institutions are forced to acknowledge these marriages. It may not be in the next few years, or even the next decade, but I see it on the horizon.

Much of the laity is in agreement with the government on Same Sex Marriage. The Church cannot (or will not in some eyes) compromise what it believes in yet to me it seems too late to sway public opinion on the matter. All of the more recent attempts have done is fan the flames and portray the LGBT lobby as more and more reasonable while we appear as rabid fanatics from a bygone age…

I don’t want to be a prophet of doom, I don’t believe things will end as badly as it might sound. I just don’t want to make a suggestion that even I lack certainty of.

Perhaps this indecision is another problem we have as an organization

 

[Viewer]

Actually, why should I lie? I said it earlier on and as of yet it appears true.

The Church doesn’t need to accept gay marriage, but it does need to stop ranting about it. When the average gay moans about his plight nobody cares, when Christ’s Vicar comes out and proclaims them to be pederasts and demonic it makes the headlines and makes readers think ill of the church.

I suggest pacifism. We do not fight this losing battle anymore by voicing our displeasure, but neither do we support it.

It is the least concession that comes to mind. It will not win the Catholic Church much favour, but it will dispell much of the growing hostility towards official teaching if it goes quiet on the matter. Treat the subject as “Don’t ask, Don’t tell” unless directly questioned in private.

 

[Holly3278]

The fact that so many Catholics reject the Church’s teaching on issues such as “gay marriage” really deeply saddens me.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Actually, why should I lie? I said it earlier on and as of yet it appears true.

The Church doesn’t need to accept gay marriage, but it does need to stop ranting about it. When the average gay moans about his plight nobody cares, when Christ’s Vicar comes out and proclaims them to be pederasts and demonic it makes the headlines and makes readers think ill of the church.

I suggest pacifism. We do not fight this losing battle anymore by voicing our displeasure, but neither do we support it.

It is the least concession that comes to mind. It will not win the Catholic Church much favour, but it will dispell much of the growing hostility towards official teaching if it goes quiet on the matter. Treat the subject as “Don’t ask, Don’t tell” unless directly questioned in private.

Have you thought that maybe it is your view that should conform to this Pope and the Church. Not the other way around. At any rate I am glad you just came out and said it instead of beating around the bush. Perhaps, since you seem to disagree with the Pope and the Church about this issue and how it is being addressed you should refrain from teaching CCD classes about this subject. Especially since 13 year olds are quoting things that you cannot explain to them.

If you think for one minute that the Church is subordinate to the “popular” winds and must quietly conform or keep silent then not only are you not up to speed on the theology of the faith but also of the history of the Church.

That any country passes a demonic anti christian law has NEVER swayed Her. And perhaps, instead of focusing your attention on how the Church needs to change Her way of dealing with the issue, you should focus on how the PEOPLE of governments need to change how they talk of this issue.

It is the ultimate hypocrisy, when one expects the Church to reform her speech and Public stance on this issue but not hold that idea with regards to those who wish to have sodomy become a sacrament.

For the third time, lets try this again. With this as your mantra.

]Actually, why should I lie?

What do you wish the Church, and by extention Jesus himself say about this issue? Can you put it in a truthful non vague, more direct way?

What I am hearing is “She should be quiet”. But what is it that you really wish?

You have stated that the Church could somehow be made to recognize these “marriages”

Why are you saying something the Church could never do might happen?

 

[Viewer]

Have you thought that maybe it is your view that should conform to this Pope and the Church.

I try to keep my own thoughts and wills out of the process as much as I possibly can. My occupation and duties ascribed to me require me to fulfill certain obligations. I meet this obligations to the very best of my abilities., and leave my own opinions to the side.

At any rate I am glad you just came out and said it instead of beating around the bush. Perhaps, since you seem to disagree with the Pope and the Church about this issue and how it is being addressed you should refrain from teaching CCD classes about this subject. Especially since 13 year olds are quoting things that you cannot explain to them.

Do you expect me to deny a direct quote from the [then] Pope as being authentic? Do you expect me to lie and say some sweet nothings to appease my students?

Within the school that I work at I am the only teacher qualified and willing to address this subject anymore. I have observed the Vatican’s plan of action put into effect over the past few years and I have come to knowledge what a spectacular failure it has been. We do not need the LGBT movement, Stonewall or any other organization to make us appear as hysterical bigots, we do a fine job ourselves by proclaiming people to be pederasts, and comparing them to necrophiliacs and Zoophiliacs.

If you think for one minute that the Church is subordinate to the “popular” winds and must quietly conform or keep silent then not only are you not up to speed on the theology of the faith but also of the history of the Church.

My knowledge of the history of the church is nothing out of the ordinary and I care little for what has been. I care for carrying on a set of values and beliefs entrusted to us so long ago. I see today what our attempts have led to within the UK and I do not like what I see.

I am proposing a salvage mission of those who claim to follow Catholicism in the aftermath of the venomous spew and scandal that has destroyed any respectability we may have once had, little more.

If we are to be taken seriously here again, it is not by hellfire and brimstone rants it will happen as appears to be the weapon of choice.

That any country passes a demonic anti christian law has NEVER swayed Her.

I am hardly an ally of the LGBT movement, but this is too far. I surprise myself by resorting to this but as my student once told me, the church has rethought it’s opinion upon usury and slavery before.

And perhaps, instead of focusing your attention on how the Church needs to change Her way of dealing with the issue, you should focus on how the PEOPLE of governments need to change how they talk of this issue.

As I have mentioned it is far beyond that stage now, whatever chance there was to change the course of history has gone now. Gay Marriage is becoming legal in a mater of months, and here we are to respect and render it equal to our own in secular society,

It is the ultimate hypocrisy, when one expects the Church to reform her speech and Public stance on this issue but not hold that idea with regards to those who wish to have sodomy become a sacrament.

At which point did I say that? Quote me on it, where did I say sodomy was a sacrament?

I suggested a retreat, and nothing more. Within the UK the Catholic church has lost the battle against same sex marriage, it is done, case closed. I am not suggesting we aknowledge it as a sacrament, I suggest we stop our public psychopathic frothing-at-the mouth rants (and there are plenty of those here) that are so violent in execution we are scaring our own children away from the faith!

For the third time, lets try this again. With this as your mantra.

What do you wish the Church, and by extention Jesus himself say about this issue? Can you put it in a truthful non vague, more direct way?

What I am hearing is “She should be quiet”. But what is it that you really wish?

I have suggested the only thing that comes to mind, I myself do not enjoy his holiness’s infallibility on these matters and am unsuited to offer such council.

We have lost the battle, and all further attacks on this matter so far have only blackened our name further. There is nothing to win here, pitch our cannons on another battlefield.

You have stated that the Church could somehow be made to recognize these “marriages”

Why are you saying something the Church could never do might happen?

I did not say this, I said I foresee an attempt within secular society and civil law to force all religious institutions to accept gay marriage, as the Church of England is being brought to bear as the Church of Denmark already has.

I do not know exactly when this attempt will come in the UK, it might be in five years, in ten years or perhaps even in twenty years time but it will come. The Catholic Church will either have to accept the notion or close it’s doors, as it has done with it’s adoption agencies.

My own opinions are irrelevant in this matter. This is merely something that will come, regardless of what we may wish.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

I try to keep my own thoughts and wills out of the process as much as I possibly can. My occupation and duties ascribed to me require me to fulfill certain obligations. I meet this obligations to the very best of my abilities., and leave my own opinions to the side.

Do you expect me to deny a direct quote from the [then] Pope as being authentic? Do you expect me to lie and say some sweet nothings to appease my students?

Within the school that I work at I am the only teacher qualified and willing to address this subject anymore. I have observed the Vatican’s plan of action put into effect over the past few years and I have come to knowledge what a spectacular failure it has been. We do not need the LGBT movement, Stonewall or any other organization to make us appear as hysterical bigots, we do a fine job ourselves by proclaiming people to be pederasts, and comparing them to necrophiliacs and Zoophiliacs.

My knowledge of the history of the church is nothing out of the ordinary and I care little for what has been. I care for carrying on a set of values and beliefs entrusted to us so long ago. I see today what our attempts have led to within the UK and I do not like what I see.

I am proposing a salvage mission of those who claim to follow Catholicism in the aftermath of the venomous spew and scandal that has destroyed any respectability we may have once had, little more.

If we are to be taken seriously here again, it is not by hellfire and brimstone rants it will happen as appears to be the weapon of choice.

I am hardly an ally of the LGBT movement, but this is too far. I surprise myself by resorting to this but as my student once told me, the church has rethought it’s opinion upon usury and slavery before.

As I have mentioned it is far beyond that stage now, whatever chance there was to change the course of history has gone now. Gay Marriage is becoming legal in a mater of months, and here we are to respect and render it equal to our own in secular society,

At which point did I say that? Quote me on it, where did I say sodomy was a sacrament?

I suggested a retreat, and nothing more. Within the UK the Catholic church has lost the battle against same sex marriage, it is done, case closed. I am not suggesting we aknowledge it as a sacrament, I suggest we stop our public psychopathic frothing-at-the mouth rants (and there are plenty of those here) that are so violent in execution we are scaring our own children away from the faith!

I have suggested the only thing that comes to mind, I myself do not enjoy his holiness’s infallibility on these matters and am unsuited to offer such council.

We have lost the battle, and all further attacks on this matter so far have only blackened our name further. There is nothing to win here, pitch our cannons on another battlefield.

I did not say this, I said I foresee an attempt within secular society and civil law to force all religious institutions to accept gay marriage, as the Church of England is being brought to bear as the Church of Denmark already has.

I do not know exactly when this attempt will come in the UK, it might be in five years, in ten years or perhaps even in twenty years time but it will come. The Catholic Church will either have to accept the notion or close it’s doors, as it has done with it’s adoption agencies.

My own opinions are irrelevant in this matter. This is merely something that will come, regardless of what we may wish.

Why? Why is it that you have chosen this issue to create an account with. That this thread, this post, made you do it? Is this issue a big one for you? And if so how so?

I think you have expressed yourself enough that I know what it is you are saying. I think you are mistaken and uninformed on the Church as a whole when you say statements like this

The Catholic Church will either have to accept the notion or close it’s doors, as it has done with it’s adoption agencies.

and

Within the school that I work at I am the only teacher qualified and willing to address this subject anymore.

and

We do not need the LGBT movement, Stonewall or any other organization to make us appear as hysterical bigots, we do a fine job ourselves by proclaiming people to be pederasts, and comparing them to necrophiliacs and Zoophiliacs.

There is obvious misinformation here. And while we could have an intellectually honest discussion that might lead to some understanding I believe you have an agenda.

I cannot continue this conversation with you as I believe it is not truthful.

Thank you for your time.

 

[Viewer]

There is obvious misinformation here. And while we could have an intellectually honest discussion that might lead to some understanding I believe you have an agenda.

I cannot continue this conversation with you as I believe it is not truthful.

Thank you for your time.

Of course, be well sir/ma’am

For the benefit of other readers however I will admit I do have an agenda. My agenda is the survival of the Catholic faith within my community and the United Kingdom, I do not know how best to go about this, and I only suggested the most viable thing that came to mind, a solution where no-one compromises fully.

Why? Why is it that you have chosen this issue to create an account with. That this thread, this post, made you do it? Is this issue a big one for you? And if so how so?

I think you have expressed yourself enough that I know what it is you are saying. I think you are mistaken and uninformed on the Church as a whole when you say statements like this

Then you know my mind better than I do sir/ma’am. These are but observations and a single opinion.

I have been moved to speak on this topic since it is a headline issue in my vicinity, both in the local community and the national headlines. Gay rights are not a hushed-up thing you have to seek out online, they are loudly proclaimed and applauded within mainstream media and supported by a majority of the public. It is unavoidable now, and within a matter of months all shall be made to acknowledge the validity of a civil law homosexual marriage if they approve or not.

I see the chaos that has been left in the wake of recent thinking, and I have merely tried to highlight the spark, the mitochondria, the root cause of much of the present turbulence and doubt.

It is a big issue for me, because I see the parish tearing itself to pieces over it. The youth approve of it almost unanimously, while the older members are at each others throats over it. I want peace, I want a united church again but as long as this lost cause keeps raging on this cannot happen.

The worms escaped from the tin and we screwed up dealing with it. If anyone has a viable, realistic and better alternative for dealing with the situation trust me, I am all ears.

 

[McCall1981]

Of course, be well sir/ma’am

For the benefit of other readers however I will admit I do have an agenda. My agenda is the survival of the Catholic faith within my community and the United Kingdom, I do not know how best to go about this, and I only suggested the most viable thing that came to mind, a solution where no-one compromises fully.

Then you know my mind better than I do sir/ma’am. These are but observations and a single opinion.

I have been moved to speak on this topic since it is a headline issue in my vicinity, both in the local community and the national headlines. Gay rights are not a hushed-up thing you have to seek out online, they are loudly proclaimed and applauded within mainstream media and supported by a majority of the public. It is unavoidable now, and within a matter of months all shall be made to acknowledge the validity of a civil law homosexual marriage if they approve or not.

I see the chaos that has been left in the wake of recent thinking, and I have merely tried to highlight the spark, the mitochondria, the root cause of much of the present turbulence and doubt.

It is a big issue for me, because I see the parish tearing itself to pieces over it. The youth approve of it almost unanimously, while the older members are at each others throats over it. I want peace, I want a united church again but as long as this lost cause keeps raging on this cannot happen.

The worms escaped from the tin and we screwed up dealing with it.** If anyone has a viable, realistic and better alternative for dealing with the situation trust me, I am all ears.**

How about boldly proclaim the Truth of the Gospel, with charity, and be more concerned about the will of God than the will of the world?

Compromising the Faith is never the right answer. Simply be an authentic Catholic who tells the Truth with charity and leave the rest to God. God only asks that you proclaim the Gospel, leave the results to Him.

There’s a Mother Theresa quote where she says “God doesn’t ask us to be succesful, He asks us to be faithful.” That’s the answer.

 

[JimG]

. . .
I said I foresee an attempt within secular society and civil law to force all religious institutions to accept gay marriage, as the Church of England is being brought to bear as the Church of Denmark already has.

Yes, it could come to this. It wouldn’t be the first time the Church was ordered by the State to reject its core beliefs or get out of business. (We face the same thing on a lesser level with the HHS mandate.)

If the battle over same sex ‘marriage’ is lost, and it may well be, the loss was years in the making. Catholics pretty much guaranteed the emergence of gay marriage once they rejected Humanae Vitae.

The embrace of contraception unlinked sex from child bearing; it unlinked marriage from children. It made children into optional accessories, to be chosen or rejected, and only perfect specimens need apply.

With childbearing no longer linked to marriage, neither was marriage linked to sex. Promiscuity of every variety followed as a natural consequence. And contraception is not perfect, so abortion became a necessity too.

Well, if marriage isn’t about procreation, then it can be about anything, and if it isn’t fulfilling, divorce is also a necessity. And why should only married couples get to have sex? Sex is for everybody, at any time, in any way they want it, and marriage equality for all.

The domestic family inevitably entered a state of decline, in which it still remains. Without the domestic family as its bedrock, society also entered a state of decline and social chaos. We are seeing the effects even now. The full results have yet to play out. (But a good documentation of the disastrous social effects to date can be found in the book “Adam and Eve After the Pill.”)

I think perhaps that your students don’t just reject historic Christian teaching about same sex marriage. I hope I am wrong about this, but they likely hold to a wholesale rejection of Catholic sexual morality. One thing flows from another. And why not? Their parents rejected it before them. They divorced, aborted their brothers and sisters, enjoyed sexual libertinism as much as anyone. Why would they expect their children to hold to traditional marriage?

I ought not to condemn prior generations in such a wholesale manner. Certainly many have held fast to the faith. But many have not. It began with a rejection of Humanae Vitae.

 

[Viewer]

How about boldly proclaim the Truth of the Gospel, with charity, and be more concerned about the will of God than the will of the world?

Considering most in my community view the will of God as being totally neutral on this topic they now view the will of God as desiring love of himself and acceptance of everyone around them regardless to lifestyle for the most part. (There’s an almost Red-Letter Christian feel on the matter, along with various re-interpretations of situations such as Sodom or the Roman centurion who sought Jesus’s aid).

Compromising the Faith is never the right answer. Simply be an authentic Catholic who tells the Truth with charity and leave the rest to God. God only asks that you proclaim the Gospel, leave the results to Him.

There’s a Mother Theresa quote where she says “God doesn’t ask us to be succesful, He asks us to be faithful.” That’s the answer.

If his holiness continues to declare people to be pedophiles (and he must know surely that this will make world news and portray the Church as some sort of ancient monster) there won’t be any faithful left! When our infallible leader comes out and says things like this it is calling grave doubt (within the youth especially) other aspects of the faith, his position especially. I’m not questioning the messages authenticity, I can merely see the method and language chosen to disseminate it has done more harm than good.

By all means lets not condone it, I’m not suggesting we start celebrating gay weddings within our parishes. I’m suggesting shutting up and not giving the media/LGBT movements more ammo until, we can actually formulate a statement that does not compromise our beliefs or use terms such as “Pederast”, “Evil” or “Disordered” which non-catholics love to chastise us for using.