Rally at archdiocese backs ousted Eastside Catholic High School vice principal Mark Zmuda

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TEPO said:
This is world news and that is a troll. BTW, I didn’t call anyone any names. Until now. :cool:
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I have not seen any uncharitable posts by TEPO. Just because someone makes a claim doesn’t make it true.
 
I heartily disagree.

That was contemptible Tepo, comparing homosexuals to Downs Syndrome. Regardless as to what side of the fence you are sat upon, you’re being grossly insulting to one or both groups.

If you wonder why non-catholics might not like you or think you and the faith (as you portray it) as bad…Well you don’t have to look very far.

It was about as charitable as punching a blind leper.
 
TEPO said:
We’re not in apologetics we’re in world news. I can give a personal opinion here.
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I understand that, but the logical consequence of your opinion would be that a homosexual would have no moral culpability for their actions. Is that your belief?
 
Brendan said:
I understand that, but the logical consequence of your opinion would be that a homosexual would have no moral culpability for their actions. Is that your belief?
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No. Actions are always controllable, but as for their inclination, possibly yes. It may be possible that there is a genetic defect in human genetics that causes SSA. The same might be said for other sinful inclinations.

Someone who is bipolar for example, might become angry at someone and feel disgust for them. For that, they may not be held accountable… But to act on that disgust, in a hateful way, is a controllable sin.
 
Hoosier_Daddy said:
I used to live in seattle. Eastside Catholic is academically an amazing school but is only nominally “Catholic”

And this is part of the problem. This person was a Vice Principal and swim coach. And one who married his “partner.” Why is it that Catholic institutions hire someone like this in the first place? IT isn’t like they hired a Catholic in good standing, based on character and morals and were blindsided by this turn of events. They probably patted themselves on the back for making such an inclusive and “progressive” hire. Well, perhaps hire a good Catholic person next time to be the VP of one of the most prestigious Catholic High Schools in the west.🤷
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Hoosier Daddy - that is the problem. The “they” you speak of are themselves progressive liberals. Their hiring decisions would seem to suggest that they are not interested in the catholicity of the school.

Ishii
 
TEPO said:
No. Actions are always controllable,.
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That is not true. If it was, an elliptic would have control over their seizers. And, for a person with bipolar, by definition, that person would not have the ability to control when and with him they experience anger.

As such, there would be no moral culpability.
 
Brendan said:
That is not true. If it was, an elliptic would have control over their seizers. And, for a person with bipolar, by definition, that person would not have the ability to control when and with him they experience anger.

As such, there would be no moral culpability.
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I don’t think the poster was referring to Epileptics when he said people can control their actions - wasn’t he referring to homosexuals?

Ishii
 
ishii said:
I don’t think the poster was referring to Epileptics when he said people can control their actions - wasn’t he referring to homosexuals?

Ishii
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TEPO was claiming that homosexual was a mental disorder. And I noted, that if it was the case, the logical consequence was that homosexuals would not be morally culpable for their actions.

I instead noted that the Church’s position was that homosexuality is a MORAL disorder and makes no claims one way or the other regarding a biological source for the inclination.

The originating posts to that subtopic have seemingly been deleted, so I am content to let this subtopic rest
 
No, when I said “actions are always controllable” I was referring to homosexuality and bipolar disorder. I can see how that may not have been 100% clear though, so I’m also willing to drop the whole thing.

I may have come off a bit harshly earlier, but I know we’re all really on the same side on this issue.
 
Brendan said:
Which ones can you think of where what the inclinations themselves are ordered towards a false object?
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I’ve never quite understood this. Is the object supposed to be an action – anal sex, oral sex, masturbation? In that case, there is nothing special about homosexuality. All inclinations toward these things – and they are extremely common among heterosexuals – are objectively disordered. Teach that accurately, and teens will have less righteous indignation.

But maybe the object is something like “sexual oneness with a person of the same sex”. If that’s what the Catechism means, then there are plenty of other objective disorders. Idolatry, in all its forms, comes to mind as an objective disorder. The desire to rape is objectively disordered. The desire to steal is objectively disordered – though the desire to possess is not. I don’t see how you can make a cogent distinction here. Perhaps you can explain it to me?
Even in alcoholism, the inclinations are not ordered towards a false moral object, the consumption of alcohol. The alcoholic only sins when then give into the inclinations in excess. While in homosexuality, the object itself is morally wrong.
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Cocaine addiction? Meth addiction? Porn addiction? Serial adultery? These all seem like objective moral disorders. There is no morally appropriate way to pursue any of these things.
Part of the misunderstanding resides in a lack of understanding by which the Church looks at ‘being ordered’ towards. Very few have the correct Thomistic understanding of the term, and instead see it in the light of how medicine and psychology use the term.
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Enlighten me. 🙂

And explain to me why we should believe St. Thomas instead of science. I’m not disagreeing that we should, but – in the spirit of Aquinas – I think we ought to inquire about reasons why we should.
 
Ender said:
Here is what was actually said:Although the particular inclination of the homosexual person is not a sin, it is a more or less strong tendency ordered toward an intrinsic moral evil; and thus the inclination itself must be seen as an objective disorder. (Cardinal Ratzinger, Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, 1986)

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_19861001_homosexual-persons_en.html
There are several points being made here:
  • An inclination to homosexuality is not a sin.
  • That inclination is ordered toward an intrinsic evil,
  • Therefore the inclination is objectively disordered.
With which of those points do you disagree?

Ender
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I will second Ender on this one. If this is the quote your students are up in arms against, Viewer, then I think they’re listening to the press’s spin on the quote, not to the words of the Pope himself.
 
If they wanted to avoid this drama, they school should have included in the policies that clearly stated how employees should act in their personal lives if they wanted to work at that school.
 
GeorgetownGirl said:
If they wanted to avoid this drama, they school should have included in the policies that clearly stated how employees should act in their personal lives if they wanted to work at that school.
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You mean if “Mr Z” wanted to avoid the drama he shouldn’t have signed an employment agreement indicating that he would uphold Catholic doctrine?
 
GeorgetownGirl said:
If they wanted to avoid this drama, they school should have included in the policies that clearly stated how employees should act in their personal lives if they wanted to work at that school.
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I’m sure they did.
 
GeorgetownGirl said:
If they wanted to avoid this drama, they school should have included in the policies that clearly stated how employees should act in their personal lives if they wanted to work at that school.
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A valid point.
stewstew03 said:
You mean if “Mr Z” wanted to avoid the drama he shouldn’t have signed an employment agreement indicating that he would uphold Catholic doctrine?
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I wonder, though. How much was upholding Catholic doctrine stressed to the staff? Was it just some fine print on the contract that the vice principal signed that was not mentioned by anyone? My point is that I don’t think even the administrations of many of these Catholic schools make it a point to highlight this expectation. Guys, this is the archdiocese of Seattle.

Ishii
 
Prodigal_Son said:
But the Church does not explicitly describe any of these other things as “objective disorders”. It singles out homosexuality.

Personally, I think that’s a problem that the Church can easily fix without changing doctrine. Just modify the Catechism a little, to mention the other objective disorders. 🤷
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Viewer said:
👍 I think it would be a good start.
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No, the Church does not single out homosexuality. Homosexuality as a topic is in the public discourse today because of the movement toward legalising homosexual marriage, and the Church has had to respond.

Look at what the Catechism refers to as disordered. The difference is we don’t have things like Masturbating Pride parades.
2351 Lust is disordered desire for or inordinate enjoyment of sexual pleasure. Sexual pleasure is morally disordered when sought for itself, isolated from its procreative and unitive purposes.
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2352… "Both the Magisterium of the Church, in the course of a constant tradition, and the moral sense of the faithful have been in no doubt and have firmly maintained that masturbation is an intrinsically and gravely disordered action."138 “The deliberate use of the sexual faculty, for whatever reason, outside of marriage is essentially contrary to its purpose.”
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2357 … Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity,141 tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered."142 They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.
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2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. …
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2385 Divorce is immoral also because it introduces disorder into the family and into society. This disorder brings grave harm …
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Catechism, Part Three, Life in Christ
 
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