Ralphy's Questions for Catholics

[ralphy]

Sorry Ralphy. Wrong again. How real the Presence was is shown by the words of institution. They can be understood only in the literal sense. “This is my body . . . This cup is the new covenant in my blood” (Luke 22:19-20).

Time for you to put your Scofield’s away. You are taking the interpretation from an extra-biblical source which defeats the (your) bible alone premise.

So when Christ said “I am the vine and you are the branches”,He was a tree, right. Ralph

 

[tmac1956]

I did say we are destined for Hell, (not predestined). Ever since Adam sinned, this is the way it is. But Christ has provided a way for us to go to heaven when He died on the cross of Calvary and shed His blood to take away our sins. If you read my earlier email you would have seen that I said that as far as I can understand all children who pass away befor the age of reason go to heaven. As far as the mentally handicapped are concern (and I have a grandson like that) they probably never reach the age of reason, so they will go to heaven. When a person is able to discern for themselves, they will have to make a decision to follow Christ or not. Ralph

Ralphy:
As you state, these are your opinions; but upon what are they based? Hopes? Personal revelation? Scripture? It sounds to me like a TRADITION held by your denomination.

 

[jmcrae]

So when Christ said “I am the vine and you are the branches”, He was a tree, right. Ralph

He never created a ceremony about the vine, or insisted in a graphic manner that he has roots and leaves, in the way that he insisted that we must gnaw his flesh and drink his blood, or else we cannot become saved.

(However, it is still true that for us to become separated from “the vine” is a sure death sentence for “the branch” - lack of unity with His Church is, therefore, not a good thing, even if the vine image is only a metaphor.)

 

[CentralFLJames]

So when Christ said “I am the vine and you are the branches”,He was a tree, right. Ralph

Ralphy, you sounds like a broken phonograph stuck on a single record track. You keep repeated the same things over and over ad-nauseum to everything we tell you. Are you really here to learn or are you here to stonewall the Holy Spirit and resist the truth? You are stuck in a rut Ralphy and its time to grow in your faith since God has other plans for you and there is much more for you to learn.

The Holy Spirit Demands growth Ralph - time to get to the mature food:

That you may walk (live and conduct yourselves) in a manner worthy of the Lord, fully pleasing to Him and desiring to please Him in all things, bearing fruit in every good work and steadily growing and increasing in and by the knowledge of God [with fuller, deeper, and clearer insight, acquaintance, and recognition]. Colossians 1: 10

You, therefore, must be perfect [growing into complete maturity of godliness in mind and character, having reached the proper height of virtue and integrity], as your heavenly Father is perfect. Matthew 5: 48

In His [Christ’s] days shall the [uncompromisingly] righteous flourish and peace abound till there is a moon no longer. Psalm 72: 7

The [uncompromisingly] righteous shall flourish like the palm tree [be long-lived, stately, upright, useful, and fruitful]; they shall grow like a cedar in Lebanon [majestic, stable, durable, and incorruptible].
Psalm 92: 12

I planted, Apollos watered, but God [all the while] was making it grow and [He] gave the increase. 1 Corinthians 3: 6

So neither he who plants is anything nor he who waters, but [only] God Who makes it grow and become greater. 1 Corinthians 3: 7

But the Word of the Lord [concerning the attainment through Christ of salvation in the kingdom of God] continued to grow and spread. Acts 12: 24

He who leans on, trusts in, and is confident in his riches shall fall, but the [uncompromisingly] righteous shall flourish like a green bough. Proverbs 11: 28

And there shall come forth a Shoot out of the stock of Jesse [David’s father], and a Branch out of his roots shall grow and bear fruit. Isaiah 11: 1

Planted in the house of the Lord, they shall flourish in the courts of our God.
Psalm 92: 13

[Growing in grace] they shall still bring forth fruit in old age; they shall be full of sap [of spiritual vitality] and [rich in the] verdure [of trust, love, and contentment]. Psalm 92: 14

Which has come to you. Indeed, in the whole world [that Gospel] is bearing fruit and still is growing [by its own inherent power], even as it has done among yourselves ever since the day you first heard and came to know and understand the grace of God in truth. [You came to know the grace or undeserved favor of God in reality, deeply and clearly and thoroughly, becoming accurately and intimately acquainted with it.] Colossians 1: 6

Behold, * Assyria, a cedar in Lebanon, with fair branches and with forestlike shade and of high stature, with its top among the thick boughs [even among the clouds]. The waters nourished it; the deep made it grow tall; its rivers ran round about its planting, sending out its streams to all the trees of the forest [the other nations]. Ezekiel 31: 3-4

And on the banks of the river on both its sides, there shall grow all kinds of trees for food; their leaf shall not fade nor shall their fruit fail [to meet the demand]. Each tree shall bring forth new fruit every month, [these supernatural qualities being] because their waters came from out of the sanctuary. And their fruit shall be for food and their leaves for healing. Ezekiel 47: 12

He who speaks in a [strange] tongue edifies and improves himself, but he who prophesies [interpreting the divine will and purpose and teaching with inspiration] edifies and improves the church and promotes growth [in Christian wisdom, piety, holiness, and happiness]. 1 Corinthians 14: 4

You foolish man! Every time you plant seed, you sow something that does not come to life [germinating, springing up, and growing] unless it dies first. Nor is the seed you sow then the body which it is going to have [later], but it is a naked kernel, perhaps of wheat or some of the rest of the grains.
1 Corinthians 15: 36-37

In Him the whole structure is joined (bound, welded) together harmoniously, and it continues to rise (grow, increase) into a holy temple in the Lord [a sanctuary dedicated, consecrated, and sacred to the presence of the Lord]. Ephesians 2: 21

And say to him, Thus says the Lord of hosts: [You, Joshua] behold (look at, keep in sight, watch) the Man [the Messiah] whose name is the Branch, for He shall grow up in His place and He shall build the [true] temple of the Lord. Zechariah 6: 12

And other seed [of the same kind] fell into good (well-adapted) soil and brought forth grain, growing up and increasing, and yielded up to thirty times as much, and sixty times as much, and even a hundred times as much as had been sown. Mark 4: 8

We do not boast therefore, beyond our proper limit, over other men’s labors, but we have the hope and confident expectation that as your faith continues to grow, our field among you may be greatly enlarged, still within the limits of our commission.
2 Corinthians 10: 15

And not holding fast to the Head, from Whom the entire body, supplied and knit together by means of its joints and ligaments, grows with a growth that is from God.
Colossians 2: 19

For as the earth brings forth its bud, as the garden causes the things that are sown in it to spring forth, so the Lord GOD will cause righteousness and praise to spring forth before all the nations. ~ Isaiah 61:11(NKJV)

James*

 

[cazayoux]

I continue to wait for Ralphy to respond to the scripture I use to refute his claims. What Ralphy claims is not in the bible.

michel

QUOTE from Ralphy:
I have only been corresponding in this catholic forum for a short time. My intent in joining this forum was to inject the bible into any conversation that I may have to further the kingdom of Christ,that is to let God do the speaking through His word. I am convinced at this point that Roman catholics value “tradition” taught by the Roman catholic church as being more correct than scripture and therefor tend to follow that teaching. I came out of the Roman catholic church after I started reading the bible and found out what Christ required of me and now I try to live by His word. I will leave you with a few verses that I believe you should read and pray that god will open your eyes. Read Matthew Chap 15:verses 1-9. And may God bless you. Ralph

Quote from Michel:
Hehehehe … so you read Matt 15:1-9 as against all tradition.
It is actually against man-made tradition that is contrary to the Word of God.

Tradition as a whole is not forbidden.
In fact Paul tells us to hold to the traditions that we have learned from him.

1 Cor 11:2
[2] I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I have delivered them to you.

2 Thes 2:15
[15] So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter.

2 Thes 3:6
[6] Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you keep away from any brother who is living in idleness and not in accord with the tradition that you received from us.

What Catholic Tradition can you name that is (1) man-made and (2) against the Word of God?

We ARE discussing scripture.
You keep stating what Catholics believe … but are wrong in your statements.
It is possible that as a Catholic, you have not learned what the church ACTUALLY teaches about many, many things.
I don’t mind you disagreeing with what the church teaches … but disagree with what the church ACTUALLY teaches, not your incorrect understanding of what the church teaches.

You are pretty much stating that tradition should not be MORE important than scripture.
CATHOLICS AGREE!!!
So your beef with the church in this regard is misplaced … you and I are actually on the same side of the table for this point.

… and I doubt that you only read the bible yourself to find out what Christ wants of you … at least in that ONLY the bible told you this. I’ll bet that you had a guide of some sort SHOW YOU what the bible is telling you. In other words, you are looking at scripture through somebody else’s eyes and therefore, THEIR INTERPRETATION of that scripture. The points you bring up are from a very overused list of typical (misplaced) beefs with the Catholic Church.

If you ARE a scripture lover … then let’s get at it.
You are surrounded by Catholics that are neck deep in scripture … SURPRISE.
We are all here because we LOVE God.

When you bring up scripture… we will address it.
When we bring up scripture … please address it.

You might find that some of the interpretations of scripture that you have learned are not actually 100% correct.

It is obvious that you love scripture and Jesus.
Let’s dive in!!!

Cheers!

michel

 

[sodak]

Ralphy:
As you state, these are your opinions; but upon what are they based? Hopes? Personal revelation? Scripture? It sounds to me like a TRADITION held by your denomination.

I asked the same thing in post 333. Don’t hold your breath, when the questions get hard, it seems that no answers are forthcoming.

 

[cazayoux]

So when Christ said “I am the vine and you are the branches”,He was a tree, right. Ralph

ahhh … great point … notice that with all of the analogies Jesus used in referring to himself he said ‘i am this’ … or ‘i am that’ … BUT … with the last supper … even the structure is different … he says ‘THIS IS ME’.

michel

 

[cazayoux]

You are correct my friend, this was a symbol of what was to come (will be shed) and not His actual body and blood at that time. Ralph

Jesus is equating right here what is in the cup and what will be shed.
You can only see what is in the cup as symbolic IF you think that his blood that was shed on the cross was symbolic … but it wasn’t. It was Jesus’ ACTUAL body and blood on the cross. Therefore … what is in the cup is His ACTUAL blood.

michel

 

[paul_c]

I agree with you, lets start here. The Cath.church teaches: Mary was preserved from all stain of original sin from the first instant of her conception. God says: Mary, a decendant of Adam,was born in sin. (Psalm 51:5; Romans 5:12. Ralph

You know Ralph, it is disenguous for you to speak for God. No where does God say as you suggest " Mary, a descendant of Adam, was born in sin". This is not what your scriptural readings say. These are simply your interpolation of what they say. These are very general statements that you are applying to a specifi case.

Scripture doesn’t discuss Mary a lot, but when it does, it has the Archangel Gabriel addressing her as " Hail Mary, full of grace". Do you believe that she could be “Full of Grace.” while simultaneously being in a sinful state? You see, The Catholic Church believes that you gain sanctifying grace through Baptism, which also results in the forgiveness of sins. You, I think, would say you gain grace by your belief in Jesus. But this wouldn’t apply to Mary as she was approached by the Gabriel. When he stated that she was full of grace, he had not asked her whether she would be willing to be the Mother of our lord yet. So at that juncture of her life, the only way she could have been “full of Grace” would be to have been born without original sin and to have refrained from sin thereafter.

Frankly, you should, in all humility, stop speaking for God. When you say, " God says" in this context, you are really saying, My interpretation of what God says is …Recognize that. And you must know that the typical Protestant gambit of parsing together short Scriptural verses is abusive of the context of the original scripture. If you can’t find a whole passage, taken as a whole , to support your statements, then you know you are outside the truth. The smaller the fragment used, the more it can be misused. For instance, if I simply pull our letters or words from the bible and put them together, , I could make it say anything. Putting together phrases or even whole sentences isn’t much different.

 

[cazayoux]

I agree with you, lets start here. The Cath.church teaches: Mary was preserved from all stain of original sin from the first instant of her conception. God says: Mary, a decendant of Adam,was born in sin. (Psalm 51:5; Romans 5:12. Ralph

Let’s check out those verses you reference.

Psalm 51:5
[5] Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Let’s see what one verse taken out of context gets you.
Since the discussion is Mary, you take this verse to be Jesus speaking.
Let’s get some context to see who is the speaker in this verse.

Psalm 51:0-5
[0] To the choirmaster. A Psalm of David, when Nathan the prophet came to him, after he had gone in to Bathsheba.
[1] Have mercy on me, O God, according to thy steadfast love; according to thy abundant mercy blot out my transgressions.
[2] Wash me thoroughly from my iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin!
[3] For I know my transgressions, and my sin is ever before me.
[4] Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done that which is evil in thy sight, so that thou art justified in thy sentence and blameless in thy judgment.
[5] Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Ahh … now we see. This is David speaking.
Unless you would have Jesus speaking verses 2-4, admitting to sin, transgressions, and evil acts.

context, context, context.

So your reference to Psalm 51:5 to mean that Mary sinned is hereby refuted.

michel

 

[cazayoux]

I agree with you, lets start here. The Cath.church teaches: Mary was preserved from all stain of original sin from the first instant of her conception. God says: Mary, a decendant of Adam,was born in sin. (Psalm 51:5; Romans 5:12. Ralph

Let’s continue to look at the verses you reference.

Romans 5:12
[12] Therefore as sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all men sinned

You take this to mean all have sinned.
Do you REALLY believe this?
Have babies sinned?
Have adults that are mentally ‘special’ sinned?

Now for some context.
The whole chapter is about sin and righteousness.
How Adam’s sin brought death and Jesus’ death brought righteousness.
We agree that Jesus saves us from sin, including Mary.
However, we believe He saved Mary from sin at her conception.

Consider this example.
You and a friend are walking along a path, and you fall into a pit.
He pulls you out of the pit. He saved you from the pit.
Now you and your friend are walking along a path, and as you are about to fall in the pit, he holds you back and you do not fall into the pit. He saved you from the pit..

Jesus saved Mary from sin before she fell into the pit, so to speak.

Let’s look at another verse from the same chapter.

Romans 5:19
[19] For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by one man’s obedience many will be made righteous.

many? why not all?
context, context, context.

michel

 

[paul_c]

Let’s continue to look at the verses you reference.

Romans 5:12
[12] Therefore as sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all men sinned

You take this to mean all have sinned.
Do you REALLY believe this?
Have babies sinned?
Have adults that are mentally ‘special’ sinned?

Now for some context.
The whole chapter is about sin and righteousness.
How Adam’s sin brought death and Jesus’ death brought righteousness.
We agree that Jesus saves us from sin, including Mary.
However, we believe He saved Mary from sin at her conception.

Consider this example.
You and a friend are walking along a path, and you fall into a pit.
He pulls you out of the pit. He saved you from the pit.
Now you and your friend are walking along a path, and as you are about to fall in the pit, he holds you back and you do not fall into the pit. He saved you from the pit..

Jesus saved Mary from sin before she fell into the pit, so to speak.

Let’s look at another verse from the same chapter.

Romans 5:19
[19] For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by one man’s obedience many will be made righteous.

many? why not all?
context, context, context.

michel

Well done. I might add that Ralph’s two Roman quotes, taken out of context are contractory to each other. Romans’ 5:12 say all men sinned while Roman’s 5:19, only “many :” were made sinners, implying some were not.

In reality, we believe that most men sin, but there are exceptions as Michel notes, like infants and some of the mentally disabled. And of course, Mary, who was Full of Grace as declared by the Archangel Gabriel. and Jesus, who was God incarnate.

 

[CentralFLJames]

Well done. I might add that Ralph’s two Roman quotes, taken out of context are contractory to each other. Romans’ 5:12 say all men sinned while Roman’s 5:19, only “many :” were made sinners, implying some were not.

In reality, we believe that most men sin, but there are exceptions as Michel notes, like infants and some of the mentally disabled. And of course, Mary, who was Full of Grace as declared by the Archangel Gabriel. and Jesus, who was God incarnate.

Agree. And if Ralphy holds consistent to his own literalistic pattern I would expect him to observe the obvious case that Mary is not a man and is a woman and so there is no scriptural witness saying that ALL women have sinned.

In fact if we want to be literalists then we can’t believe Paul either since Paul is a man and Paul didn’t exempt himself from sin or lieing either. And in the passage where Paul says all men lie how do we even know Paul is telling us the truth? Did Paul lie when he told us all men lie or did he tell us the truth when he admitted he lies?

We seem to have yet another one of those “Fundamentalist Protestant Pickles” that we keep getting into when they want to be literalist everywhere except for in the Lord’s Body and Blood teaching. And this kind of scriptural read make no sense to anyone except to maybe a person who fell out of the cuckoo’s nest and landed on his head … uch:
Romans 3:9-18:

9What shall we conclude then? Are we any better**? Not at all! We have already made the charge that** Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin****. 10As it is written:
“There is no one righteous, not even one;
11there is no one who understands,
no one who seeks God.
12All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one.”[c]
13"Their throats are open graves;
their tongues practice deceit."[d]
“The poison of vipers is on their lips.”[e]
14"Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness."[f]
15"Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16ruin and misery mark their ways,
17and the way of peace they do not know."[g]
18"There is no fear of God before their eyes."[h]

James

 

[Tomster]

So when Christ said “I am the vine and you are the branches”,He was a tree, right. Ralph

Jesus is the Head of the Mystical Body of Christ. Those in the state of sanctifying grace are his members. The Most Holy Eucharist is the life giving food of each member of the Mystical Body.This truth of the Mystical Body of Christ is foreign to those such as yourself due to a very poor understanding of Christology as infallibly taught by the Church. Naturally, when those, such as yourself, reject the teaching authority of the Church and usurp that authority for yourself and set yourself up as an infallible teacher it is understandable how you can be so wrong on so many things.

The vine and the branches passage that you quoted is an analogy of the reality of the Mystical Body of Christ.

 

[ralphy]

He never created a ceremony about the vine, or insisted in a graphic manner that he has roots and leaves, in the way that he insisted that we must gnaw his flesh and drink his blood, or else we cannot become saved.

(However, it is still true that for us to become separated from “the vine” is a sure death sentence for “the branch” - lack of unity with His Church is, therefore, not a good thing, even if the vine image is only a metaphor.)

And the body and blood of Christ in the communion of the Roman catholic is a metaphor also. Ralph

 

[Tomster]

So when Christ said “I am the vine and you are the branches”,He was a tree, right. Ralph

BTW Ralphy, I am sure that if you poll some of your fellow Protestants, High Church Anglicans and Lutherans for example, you will see that your opinion regarding the Real Presence of Christ in the Blessed Sacrament will differ greatly from theirs.

My question to you at this point would be who within Protestatism has the authority to teach the correct doctrine?

Pleasre answer the question Ralphy!

 

[Tomster]

And the body and blood of Christ in the communion of the Roman catholic is a metaphor also. Ralph

What is it that you do not understand Ralphy? Jesus said that those who eat his body and drink his blood have life everlasting. Pretty simple. As for me, I’ll take the Lord’s word for it.

 

[jmcrae]

And the body and blood of Christ in the communion of the Roman catholic is a metaphor also. Ralph

Jesus treats his analogy of his own flesh and blood very differently than the analogy of the vine.

Jesus said, “I am the vine” which is very different than saying, “The bread is my body; the wine is my blood.”

Jesus never said, “the vine is me.”

 

[ralphy]

Agree. And if Ralphy holds consistent to his own literalistic pattern I would expect him to observe the obvious case that Mary is not a man and is a woman and so there is no scriptural witness saying that ALL women have sinned.

In fact if we want to be literalists then we can’t believe Paul either since Paul is a man and Paul didn’t exempt himself from sin or lieing either. And in the passage where Paul says all men lie how do we even know Paul is telling us the truth? Did Paul lie when he told us all men lie or did he tell us the truth when he admitted he lies?

We seem to have yet another one of those “Fundamentalist Protestant Pickles” that we keep getting into when they want to be literalist everywhere except for in the Lord’s Body and Blood teaching. And this kind of scriptural read make no sense to anyone except to maybe a person who fell out of the cuckoo’s nest and landed on his head … uch:

James

My Roman catholic bible say’s in Rom 3:23, for ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God. I really can’t believe that you are serious. Ralph

 

[ralphy]

Jesus treats his analogy of his own flesh and blood very differently than the analogy of the vine.

Jesus said, “I am the vine” which is very different than saying, “The bread is my body; the wine is my blood.”

Jesus never said, “the vine is me.”

If I said “I am Ralph”, is it any different that saying ,“Ralph is me”. Try again! Ralph