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diggerdomer
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Yes. It’s not there. So?
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bradwill911
Guest
And what does the very next verse say?
Verse 10: “For we are his handiwork, created in Christ Jesus for the good works that God has prepared in advance, that we should live in them.”
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CentralFLJames
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CentralFLJames
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[continued]
From Scripture Catholic on Purgatory (continued):
From Scripture Catholic on Purgatory (continued):
James
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PJM
Guest
My dear Brother Ralphy, we either accept the bible as God’s inspired word or put it in the trash. It’s either true or none of its true! (Note please I did not say every passage is “factual.” I only said TRUE! read 2. Tim 3:16
Really
How about these words of Jesus Himself…
Mt. 16: "7* And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven. 18* And I tell you, you are Peter, * and on this rock * I will build my church, and the powers of death * shall not prevail against it. **19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” **
And these:
John 20:**"21* Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.” 22* And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23* If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.” **
Friend you may want to rethink your position.
Purgatory has to do with the Divine and all-good Nature of God. Who because He is “all-good” must be, and certainly is both Fair and Just. Both good, right?
1 John “**13: 16 If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin which is mortal; I do not say that one is to pray for that. 17 All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin which is not mortal.”/COLOR]
So we can prove that all of us comit sins. And that God judges them in “fairness and Justice” as “less serious” or “more serious”.
God cannot and will judge each of us the same! For example you told a small fib, but I killed someone, it would not be fair to us, to be judged the same. So we are judged on our personal choices, what we do that is right and what we do that is wrong.
The more serious sins we call “Mortal” are so serious as to have the power to seperate us from our personal relationship with Jesus. until (God’s fair and just Nature demands that we have an opportunity to make ammends) we Confess, Repent and Convert (change how we live our lives from sinfull to saintly), and should we not do this before we die; we commit ourselvesd to Hell!
If we die with only unConfessed, unrepented LESS SERIOUS SIN, God’s Divine Fairness and Justice Can’t send us to hell, BUT nor can He admit us to heaven until we have “been made Perfect” Like Him. That, my friend in where Purgatory comes in. It is the actualization of God’s fairness and Justice that permits us an opportunity to become Perfected and to get to heaven
:thumbsup:Do you now:shrug:
Christ “redeemed us” He DID NOT SAVE US!
James Ch. 2:14 "What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is ill-clad and in lack of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead. 18 But some one will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith. 19 You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe–and shudder. 20 Do you want to be shown, you shallow man, that faith apart from works is barren? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? 22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works, 23 and the scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness”; and he was called the friend of God. 24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. 26 For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead**.
Ralphy, I could also quote you many other verses including many from Paul. But here again, you either believe that the Bible is the inspired Word of God, or put it in the trash!
**
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cazayoux
Guest
That isn’t what Jesus said.
Matt 9:8
[8] When the crowds saw it, they were afraid, and they glorified God, who had given such authority to men.
notice this is plural.
John 20:21-23
[21] Jesus said to them again, "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you."
[22] And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit.
[23] If ***you ***forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if ***you ***retain the sins of any, they are retained.”
Wow … looks like Jesus DID give men the power to forgive sins.
Who gave the power? Jesus.
What did he give them that they received? The Holy Spirit.
Would you ignore this scripture where Jesus himself is showing HOW men’s sins will be forgiven by God?
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ralphy
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You know what. Having come out the Roman catholic church, I am convinced that Roman catholics come under 1 Peter 4:17. Thay have their own gospel set up for themselves. Ralph
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SteveGC
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And I would offer to you, that the only reason you think that…is BECAUSE you came out of the Catholic Church.
But, may God bless you on your journey outside His Household.
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CentralFLJames
Guest
Ralphy may I ask what the circumstances were in your leaving The Church? Did you get excommunicated or did you just drop out without talking to a priest or sitting down with anyone to ask questions? What prompted it? Did you just wake up one day and say “this is the day I quit being a Catholic” or was it more likely that a Protestant friend or girlfriend talked you into it and gave you special attention and wooed you away?
Based on what you have said in these forums I can’t believe that you were every properly catechized. Were you a cradle Catholic and was your family all going to church or did you have problems at home and not go to Church or Catholic education much?
You only get out of a relationship what you put in Ralphy. I know that “just believing” sounds like its very easy and a simpler “system” but if that is a false doctrine as Catholics here are trying to tell you then its not going to help you one bit in the afterlife.
Let me ask you this: If someone is not of “the elect” but “just believes” can be be saved?
Are you of the elect Ralphy? If you think so, are you sure and how do you know? How do you know that Satan just does not have you on an “easy believism” lie and you took the bait and hook line and sinker?
James
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steve_b
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Based on your posts, you haven’t demonstrated you know anything about Catholicism even though you SAY you were a Catholic for 43 years.
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ralphy
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I was brought up in a catholic family with two parents and 8 brothers and sisters who all went to the catholic church. We all went to mass every sunday, confession about once a week, did our church duties and all that the church required. In those days catholics were advised not to read the bible, so as not to get the wrong meaning. In sunday school we were taught from the catechism (church teaching), no bible study. I continued in the catholic faith until I was 43 yrs old . I was married and had three children and was not a very good husband, I supported my family but drank a lot, having been in the airforce for twenty yrs. In 1977,I was invited to a bible study with about 12 people attending at that time. When I received a bible and began to look into Gods word (nobody said anything about what faith I was in) , we just looked at bible and discussed what it said in there. I realized that what I was reading did not match up to what the church had taught me. This presented a problem, someone was wrong. I was taught that the Roman catholic church was the only true church and everyone else was wrong. God’s word did not tell me that, He said that those who belong to the body of Christ are His church, these are the called out ones of God. I also saw in the bible that we will be judged by the word of God and not by what man say’s. So after many studies in the bible I came to the conclusion that I would do what the word of God told me to do. I will give you some verses as to how I got saved: John 14:6,Acts 3:19,Acts 13:31, Romans 10:13, John 5:24. I know I am saved by the word of God,covered by His blood and will go home to glory when I pass away or when the “rapture” (the taken away occurs). I am so greatful for His saving grace. What a “free” gift I have received from Him, praise His name. RalphRalphy may I ask what the circumstances were in your leaving The Church? Did you get excommunicated or did you just drop out without talking to a priest or sitting down with anyone to ask questions? What prompted it? Did you just wake up one day and say “this is the day I quit being a Catholic” or was it more likely that a Protestant friend or girlfriend talked you into it and gave you special attention and wooed you away?
Based on what you have said in these forums I can’t believe that you were every properly catechized. Were you a cradle Catholic and was your family all going to church or did you have problems at home and not go to Church or Catholic education much?
You only get out of a relationship what you put in Ralphy. I know that “just believing” sounds like its very easy and a simpler “system” but if that is a false doctrine as Catholics here are trying to tell you then its not going to help you one bit in the afterlife.
Let me ask you this: If someone is not of “the elect” but “just believes” can be be saved?
Are you of the elect Ralphy? If you think so, are you sure and how do you know? How do you know that Satan just does not have you on an “easy believism” lie and you took the bait and hook line and sinker?
James
call out by God.
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CentralFLJames
Guest
Well Ralphy, I am not sure what to tell you. I know many career air force officers and I honestly do not know a single one who has a drinking problem - but I am sure some others do. I don’t think we can blame the organization for the defects and weaknesses of the individual responsibilities do you? In the same way we can’t blame the Church for the fact that some people never “get it” and follow what they have been taught. There is such a thing as personal responsibility I think you will agree yes?
I can’t hardly accept that you went to catechism each week and even confession (you went more than 90% of Catholics when I was growing up) and did not get a better understanding of the Catholic Faith. Were you being attentive in class or daydreaming about flying airplanes someday?
None of the scripture verses you quoted seemed to be profound to me - its all pretty standard Catholic teaching. Didn’t you believe that you were saved by being Catholic as long as you confessed your sins when you got off track? You seem to be implying that Catholicism prevented you from being saved? But how is that when God’s Word is read every mass and every 3 years a Catholic will hear the entire bible taught. Catholics live and breath God’s Word. The bible is Catholic - it is our book.
James
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paul_c
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So Ralphy, If I understand the chronology right, you left Catholicism in 1977 at age 43 and you have spent the last 32 years as a Protestant of some type, So this isn’t a recent event. Do I have this correct?
And these are the 5 verses that turned you from Catholicism, right:
John 14:6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
,Acts 3:19 Repent, therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be wiped away,
Acts 13:31, and for many days he appeared to those who had come up with him from Galilee to Jerusalem. These are (now) his witnesses before the people
Romans 10:13 For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
John 5:24. Amen, amen, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes in the one who sent me has eternal life and will not come to condemnation, but has passed from death to life.
.
I always find it interesting when people pull out one verse and ascribe all kinds of meaning to it without considering context. For instance, if you read jsut 3 verses further in John 5 you would get: John 5:28-29 ==>
Do not be amazed at this, because the hour is coming in which all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and will come out, those who have done good deeds to the resurrection of life, but those who have done wicked deeds to the resurrection of condemnation.
Clearly it is more than just believing that gets you eternal life. You need to have done good deeds. Sure, you need to have faith first, but you still have the responsibility to live out that faith. This is basic Catholic teaching.
The same goes for Romans; If you read the entire epistle, you would know that in Chapter 2, verses 1-16 Paul says:
Therefore, you are without excuse, every one of you who passes judgment. For by the standard by which you judge another you condemn yourself, since you, the judge, do the very same things. We know that the judgment of God on those who do such things is true. Do you suppose, then, you who judge those who engage in such things and yet do them yourself, that you will escape the judgment of God? Or do you hold his priceless kindness, forbearance, and patience in low esteem, unaware that the kindness of God would lead you to repentance? By your stubbornness and impenitent heart, you are storing up wrath for yourself for the day of wrath and revelation of the just judgment of God, **who will repay everyone according to his works eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works, but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness. ** Yes, affliction and distress will come upon every human being who does evil, Jew first and then Greek. But there will be glory, honor, and peace for everyone who does good, Jew first and then Greek.
There is no partiality with God. All who sin outside the law will also perish without reference to it, and all who sin under the law will be judged in accordance with it. For it is not those who hear the law who are just in the sight of God; rather, those who observe the law will be justified. For when the Gentiles who do not have the law by nature observe the prescriptions of the law, they are a law for themselves even though they do not have the law. They show that the demands of the law are written in their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even defend them
on the day when,** according to my gospel, God will judge people’s hidden works through Christ Jesus**.
So in both your accounts, you have cherrypicked one verse out of context that seems to contradict the overall message of the gospel. Works are necessary to demonstrate faith and will be the focus of the judgment of whether you are granted eternal life in heaven or not.
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sodak
Guest
This seems to be your standard answer for whenever Scripture is used in these forums to support the Catholic position. Doesn’t it ever bother you that so much evidence points directly to the Church? Whenever someone debates Scripture with you, you have nothing to say except for a few pat responses.
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ralphy
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I believe by your statement (didn’t you believe that you were saved by being catholic), that is pretty far fetched, nobody is saved by being a certain denomination. We are all sinners an must come to Christ for salvation. Catholic means universal. Roman catholic means something far different, it means coming under the teaching of the Pope and whatever he or his followers decide to add to or take away from the word of God. Can you imagine what Peter would think as a poor fisherman (whom you call the first pope) to see all the hierarchy today in the church with all its jewelry,pomp and ceremony and rituals taking place. You say the pope is infallible and call him Holy father (this is blasphemy), only God is in that position. In these days I believe more catholics are reading the bible, this is good, we never had a bible in our house when I was growing up. The Roman catholic church has added and taken away from the bible as it deemed fit to suit it’s purpose, there are so many things followed in the Roman catholic which are not in the bible , I have a list of 62 items that have been altered and do not reflect Gods word. I know from experience that the rituals and ceremonies carried out in the Roman catholic church are based on the teachings of the church. I am not coming from a situation of not understanding where I was (the Roman catholic church), I thought I was in the right place until I was enlightened by the Holy Spirit to follow His writing in the bible. He is my Savior and will not judge me at the judgement seat of Christ to see if I can enter heaven, (for I am covered by His blood) and will enter heaven, but I will be judged for the works I have carried out after salvation to see if they will stand the test of fire, will they all be burned up (stubble or hay),or will some be left after the fire for rewards. I agree we have a personal responsibility as far as everything is concerned and we will stand alone befor God in judgement without excuse. I can only plead the Blood of Christ, as Christ is my advocate. RalphWell Ralphy, I am not sure what to tell you. I know many career air force officers and I honestly do not know a single one who has a drinking problem - but I am sure some others do. I don’t think we can blame the organization for the defects and weaknesses of the individual responsibilities do you? In the same way we can’t blame the Church for the fact that some people never “get it” and follow what they have been taught. There is such a thing as personal responsibility I think you will agree yes?
I can’t hardly accept that you went to catechism each week and even confession (you went more than 90% of Catholics when I was growing up) and did not get a better understanding of the Catholic Faith. Were you being attentive in class or daydreaming about flying airplanes someday?
None of the scripture verses you quoted seemed to be profound to me - its all pretty standard Catholic teaching. Didn’t you believe that you were saved by being Catholic as long as you confessed your sins when you got off track? You seem to be implying that Catholicism prevented you from being saved? But how is that when God’s Word is read every mass and every 3 years a Catholic will hear the entire bible taught. Catholics live and breath God’s Word. The bible is Catholic - it is our book.
James
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ralphy
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Not true, works follow salvation. Works will be judged at the judgement seat of Christ to see if they are worth anything as rewards (not for salvation), are they stubble or hay, or will they come through the fire as refined. Ralph
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SteveGC
Guest
Just wanted you to reflect on something revealed to me in your story (which I thank you for sharing with us, btw - I was an air force officer myself).
You said you “continued in the Catholic faith until I was 43”. What do you mean by “continued”? Was it as devoutly continued the entire 43 years as it was when you were growing up? Would you say you got anything out of the Catholic education you received? If not, why not?
Then you admitted (graciously) to us that you had problems in your life, problems in family life, problems with substance abuse. My assumption is that one doesn’t go from “continuing in the Catholic faith” directly into a lifestyle such as this without a long, gradual falling from your faith and focus on Christ. Can you elaborate on the amount of time that passed from your truly devout Catholic days, to the day you met 12 bible-only Christians? Was there not a gradually increasing turn away from God, and The Church over that span of time, which I would suggest played a huge role in your rejection of The Church?
Would you not agree that it is quite plausible, in fact very possible, that your exposure to these 12 people came at a time when you had let sin overpower your life and steer you away from The Church? And is it not quite possible that these 12 people, who followed the bible only, either did not know the Catholic faith, or had a similar falling away from Her? And lastly, would it not be fair to say that what you experienced was NOT, in fact, the Holy Spirit telling you The Catholic Church is wrong, but rather these 12 people telling you it was, showing you (through carefully extracted scriptural references taken out of context) “proof” that The Church has been wrong for 2000 years? Did you not buy-in to all this “good sounding” theology, ralphy, because you were desperate in your life for a change from your sinful ways (as we all are), and having allowed yourself to fall further outside The Church, latched onto people who “accepted” you and gave you a quick-and-easy ‘just believe in Christ’ answer for the solution to all your problems?
I apologize in advance for anything you read here which offends you. I just am curious if any of this crossed your mind.
God Bless
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CentralFLJames
Guest
Ralphy, there are probably many millions of people who call themselves Christian who will burn in hell. People who believe that all that is necessary for salvation is to say “I believe” then go right on sinning and not repenting or confessing their sins are of the variety of those Jesus warned about that call him “Lord Lord” but do not DO what He commanded. Similarly there are probably millions of people who call themselves Catholics but are Catholic in name only and do not follow the true apostolic teachings or even go to church regularly. So you are correct in saying that no one is saved by calling themselves Christian or Baptist, or Lutheran or any of the other denominations. But as a point of clarification I want to point out that that Catholicism is NOT a denomination it is the One Church - we have no denominations. Denominations are a Protestant concept and it never existed until Protestants invented many different flavors of Christianity. Catholics have always been simply “Catholic” - we are the same Church as existed at Pentecost in the upper room. It is Protestants who started calling Catholics “Roman Catholics” but that is not our name. That is what you all call us. Our name is simply “Catholic Church”. The Pope teaches from Rome but that is just because that is where the Church decided to establish its seat of authority. So what YOU call Roman Catholic is NO different than Catholic. You are not Catholic if you are not a formal member of the Catholic Church. I take that back. Since you were baptised as a Catholic you are forever a Catholic unless you are excommunicated and never come back.
The Pope has not changed a single word of the bible - it is the Protestants who have butchered the bible (removing 10% of the books and by twisting the interpretations to suit their new teachings). The Bible is Catholic and will never contradict The Catholic Church.
Ralphy Peter was Catholic. You act as if he can’t see what we are doing here. Peter IS proud to see how far the infant Church has come since its founding but is very displeased that the Protestants decided to do violence to the word and the divinely appointed authority. Peter like Christ is present now in The Church and speaks through the same spirit through Chair of Peter - The Pope. I don’t know why you never had a bible growing up - everyone I know had one and was taught growing up. But you are wrong about The Church. The Catholic Church has NOT added to the bible or taken away. How dare you make such a claim when the bible was wholely intact for 1400 years until the Protestants TOOK AWAY 7 books and added all new doctrines no one ever heard in the Christian Church (the solas). NONE of the solas are in the bible - except by sola gracia - which IS CATHOLIC! I dare you to prove sola fide and sola scriptura from “the bible alone”. It can’t be done - impossible since its not in there and is an addition of the reformers - a lie.
I am willing to examine your so called list and refute every single one of them - that is how confident I am that the Bible is 100% Catholic and can’t be made to speak against a single Catholic teaching except by distortion of truth and by ignoring some other verses.
Ralphy, if you are teaching a different gospel, as you are here, you are not covered by Christ’s blood but have like Pilot His blood on your hands and that will condemn you since you were given the truth and you let perverse men teach you a lie and have rejected the true words and let others twist it in the same way that Satan tried to twist scripture when he tempted Christ. You need to go look at history Ralphy and see what really happened. To be ignorant of history is to be Protestant and somone else is teaching you the history - but its not the Holy Spirit.
James
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cazayoux
Guest
Regarding men’s (God-given) authority to forgive sins.
I show you from scripture where your theology is flat wrong and contradicts scripture and your response is to say I don’t follow the gospel.
I’m showing you the gospel.
John 20:21-23 shows Jesus giving the power to forgive sins to men.
I need to you please help me understand how this doesn’t mean what it plainly says in scripture to fit your theology.
There is absolutely a new priesthood in the new covenant as I’ve shown from scripture.
I need to you please help me to understand how your theology says otherwise.
Please address the questions rather than this duck-and-weave type of attack-and-run.
You stated a claim.
I showed you from scripture where I think your claim is wrong.
Show me FROM SCRIPTURE where my thinking or interpretation is off.
michel
Regarding your claim that priests are only an old testament thing and not in the new covenant.
That’s your response to scripture?!
I show you from scripture where your theology is flat wrong and contradicts scripture and your response is to say I don’t follow the gospel.
I’m showing you the gospel.
John 20:21-23 shows Jesus giving the power to forgive sins to men.
I need to you please help me understand how this doesn’t mean what it plainly says in scripture to fit your theology.
There is absolutely a new priesthood in the new covenant as I’ve shown from scripture.
I need to you please help me to understand how your theology says otherwise.
Please address the questions rather than this duck-and-weave type of attack-and-run.
You stated a claim.
I showed you from scripture where I think your claim is wrong.
Show me FROM SCRIPTURE where my thinking or interpretation is off.
michel
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