Ralphy's Questions for Catholics

[CentralFLJames]

Here’s a few more “protestant words” not found in the bible, courtesy of Steve Ray:

Age of AccountabilityTotal Depravity of Man
Personal Lord and SaviourAsk Jesus into your Heart
The Rapture Invisible Church Folding your Hands, Bowing your Head
“Personal Relationship with Christ” Accepting Christ as Lord and Savior
Enthroning the Bible in your Heart “Covered with the righteousness of Christ”
Limited Atonement Imputed righteousness
Dedication; Rededication “Giving your Life to the Lord”
Revival Inerrancy Eternal Security
“Once saved, always saved” Denominations
Sola Scriptura or Scripture only Devotions
Wedding rings Full-time Ministry
“Righteousness of Christ” (phrase never found in the New Testament)

[SIGN]Shuuuush. :tsktsk:
Careful, if too many people catch on you are going to put a LOT of category
Protestant paperback writers out of a job and ruin a lot of tax-free business exemptions for about 20% of the population and we need all the economic stimulus we can to
bail out the economy right now; and the rapture bus looks like its running late too…
[/SIGN]

James

p.s. There are a bunch more terms too if you “follow the money/simony” into the “Prosperity Gospel” sects and enterprise and start peeling away the onion of the TV evangelical empire…

 

[steve_b]

If it is not in scripture, then it came from man. Ralph

Where is that statement in scripture?

 

[ShellKell]

You must be reading and believing those mass mailing marketing materials coming out of the mega-Church’s Shell.

Here, read what your own people are saying:
The Coming Evangelical Collapse (Michael Spencer, Christian Science Monitor March 10, 2009 edition)

Hi Jamee
I should have expanded on this more. First of all we know that more and more will turn away from the Faith as Christ’s return draws near. The program I was refereeing to is linked here. cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=4855020n

Mary Baker Eddy founded the Church of Christ, Scientist in the early 1900s I think, and not one of my own people. I think this is the same group that Tom Cruise belong to, correct me if I’m wrong.

 

[FCEGM]

. . .

Mary Baker Eddy founded the Church of Christ, Scientist in the early 1900s I think, and not one of my own people. I think this is the same group that Tom Cruise belong to, correct me if I’m wrong.

Shell, Tom Cruise is a Scientologist, not a member of the “Church of Christ, Scientist.”

 

[ShellKell]

Shell, Tom Cruise is a Scientologist, not a member of the “Church of Christ, Scientist.”

Thanks, I stand corrected.

 

[Tomster]

[SIGN]Shuuuush. :tsktsk:
Careful, if too many people catch on you are going to put a LOT of category
Protestant paperback writers out of a job and ruin a lot of tax-free business exemptions for about 20% of the population and we need all the economic stimulus we can to
bail out the economy right now; and the rapture bus looks like its running late too…
[/SIGN]

James

p.s. There are a bunch more terms too if you “follow the money/simony” into the “Prosperity Gospel” sects and enterprise and start peeling away the onion of the TV evangelical empire…

You’re too much my brother! :tiphat::bowdown2:

 

[ralphy]

It came from Christ’s Church. Jesus decided to use man as His instrument to teach His Way for salvation. If you believe one word in the Bible, then you have to believe that those MEN who orally taught Christ’s Word for centuries BEFORE writing it down into what we know as the Bible today, DID have authority. Those men, the apostles and their successors (the ECF’s) knew the exact context of the Scriptures that they taught and wrote down. No man today can say that. BUT, many, many, many protestant men teach all kinds of things that are not found in Scripture, so why do you follow them? Unless YOU were given authority to interpret what you think Scripture is saying, then you are as guilty as the men you are referring to.

Do you know who or what Christs church is? Ralph

 

[sodak]

How about you start answering some of our questions first. There’s a whole bunch hanging out there, waiting.

 

[Tomster]

Do you know who or what Christs church is? Ralph

Could you please respond to post # 119?

 

[Howie01]

Talk about coming from man, Ralphy! Why does so much of Holy Scripture say so little to the Protestant reader? The answer is at both simple and complex. The simple answer is because so little of it can be used to confirm his beliefs. More complex is the part played by the history Protestantism and the Protestant’s own oral tradition.

Luther’s theology required the reworking of the Word of God because it was his OWN system. His notions had to be put there. So Protestantism departed from Holy Scripture at its birth. Beginning with one falsification (Romans 1:17), the Reformer ended with a multitude, all of them required to justify the first one. He then put forth a falsified Christianity with the claim that it was based on the Bible: “The Protestant reformation had its birth and inspiration in Holy Scripture.” Along with the myth that it is biblical, the Protestant inherits an unbiblical system, which, because of the myth, he is required to justify from the Bible.

This presents him with an insoluble problem. His chief difficulty is that, even with all of the manipulations, falsifications, insertions, excisions, and rejections, the Great Reformer wound up with little to show for his labors. The Bible remains, from the first page to the last, a Catholic book.

What is more, Protestant oral tradition is in effect a template laid over Holy Scripture. However long and however often he may look at it, the Protestant sees only what is applicable to his system: not much. Out of the 35,000 verses, the biblical core of Protestant apologetics is still some thirteen verses.

Despite the smallness of the number of misunderstood Bible verses he really believes, it is an article of faith for the Protestant, constantly reiterated to him by his oral tradition, that his religion is based on the Bible - that is to say, one of his beliefs is that he believes the Bible, implying that he believes all of it. The innumerable texts which confirm the Apostolic Faith and condemn the imitations of it make no discernable impression at all on the Protestant reader. He views his few memorized Bible verses as stupendous truths which prove conclusively that Protestanism is the restored primitive church, and indict Catholicism as a false religion. They must be brought to the attention of the Catholics he meets, who know nothing about the Bible.

Thus, apart from his thirteen verses and passages about which there is no argument, the rest of what Holy Scripture says is necessarily overlooked, absolutely meaningless, or just plain misunderstood. He can do nothing more than ignore, distort, and misrepresent it.

And all that without a footnote!!

BTW, which 13 verses?

 

[Contarini]

If you read 2 Tim 3:16 and 2 Peter 1:20-21 you will see who wrote the Holy Bible.

2 Peter says that Paul’s letters are Scripture, though it doesn’t tell us which letters Paul actually wrote. 2 Tim 3:16 gives no specifics on what Scripture is, although we can assume that it’s talking about at least some part of what we would now call the Old Testament.

But why do you accept 2 Timothy and 2 Peter as Scriptural in the first place? Because they were written by apostles? Most modern scholars think that Paul did not write 2 Timothy, and even fewer believe that Peter wrote 2 Peter. How do you know they are wrong?

Edwin

 

[jlhargus]

Do you know who or what Christs church is? Ralph

As a Catholic convert from a non-denominational fundamentalist Bible Church, this is my Scriptural understanding of the ONE HOLY CATHOLIC APOSTOLIC CHURCH. I used the KJV and for emphases added the CAPITAL WORDS. Maybe you can give scripture for your invisiable faith group?

Scripture indicates, to be a valid minister one must be SENT, [Rm 10:14 …how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 how shall they preach EXCEPT THEY BE SENT? [Can an invisiable church SEND anyone?] Lk 6:12 And it came to pass in those days, that HE went out into a mountain to pray, and CONTINUED ALL NIGHT IN PRAYER to God. 13 And when it was day, he called unto him his disciples: and OF THEM HE CHOSE TWELVE, whom also he NAMED APOSTLES; JN 17:18 As you have SENT me into the world I also SENT them into the world 20 I do not pray for these alone but for those who will BELIEVE IN ME THROUGH THEIR WORD 21 THAT THEY ALL MY BE ONE as you Father are in me and I in you THAT THE WORLD MAY BELIEVE you SENT ME.] Christ is praying for one specific visible sent group the Apostles Fellowship, that hearing their word and being one in fellowship, the world may believe the Father sent him, can an invisable church do that? I don’t think Christ meant, he would only be with that fellowship and it would only be one, just while the apostles were alive, but to the end of the world. [Mt 28:16 the eleven disciples 18 Jesus spoke to THEM ALL POWER IS GIVEN TO ME in heaven and in earth 19 GO TEACH ALL NATIONS baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit 20 TEACHING to observe ALL things whatever I have COMMANDED you I AM WITH YOU always even TO THE END.] Can an invisiable church, to that? The great commission to the Church, the apostles fellowship. Christ to whom all power in heaven and earth is given, sent with his authority the apostles to TEACH ALL to observe what he taught, they were to go to all nations (universal, catholic). Only the apostles were sent to teach all nations, with the authority of Christ. Christ promised to be with them till the end of the world. Those individuals would not be around till the end, but their SENT successors in the Apostolic Fellowship would, by passing on their authority to teach, sanctify and rule by laying on of hands from bishop to bishop till the end.

[LK 22:29 I appoint you A KINGDOM as my Father has appointed me 30 That you may eat and drink AT MY TABLE IN MY KINGDOM and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel 31 SIMON Satan has desired to have you 32 I have prayed for you that YOUR FAITH FAIL NOT when you are converted, STRENGTHEN YOUR BRETHREN.] When Peter is converted his faith will never fail, he is to strengthen all the brethren as Universal Pastor. Can an invisiable church do that? Christ said Satan wanted to sift all the apostles (you plural) as wheat, but Christ prayed that only (you singular) Peter’s faith fail not, this was said in the presents of the other apostles. Christ promised Peter’s faith alone would not fail, implying all must be in union and agree with the faith of Peter. Those not in union with Peter’s faith even though they have apostolic secession can teach error. My Bishop or any number of Bishops can teach error if not in union and agreement, with the successor of Peter. JN 21:14-17 Jesus asked Peter three times, “do you love me more than these” THESE, would be the other apostles. After being asked three times and replying three times, “yes”. Christ said to Peter, the first time, “feed MY lambs”, the second time, “feed MY sheep”, the third time, “feed MY sheep”. Peter is to feed ALL the sheep in Christ’s flock, not some, but ALL the sheep Christ has purchased with his blood. Can an invisiable church feed all Christ’s flock?

[ACTS 2:41 they that RECEIVED HIS WORD WERE BAPTIZED 42 THEY CONTINUED STEDFASTLY in the APOSTLES DOCTRINE FELLOWSHIP in BREAKING BREAD and in PRAYERS. 1Cor 1:9 God is faithful you were called into THE FELLOWSHIP OF his Son JESUS CHRIST. 10 I appeal to you BRETHREN by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ that all of you AGREE that there be no dissensions among you that you BE UNITED in the same mind and the same judgment.] Can an invisiable church be a fellowship have the same doctrine, be united? One fellowship no matter where it is located in the world. [Lk 24:48 you are witnesses of these things 49 I SEND the promise of my Father upon you WAIT in Jerusalem TILL YOU ARE ENDUED WITH POWER FROM ON HIGH. Can an invisiable church wait in Jerusalem? Jn 16:13 When THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH comes HE WILL GUIDE YOU into ALL the TRUTH Jn 14:26 the Holy Spirit HE SHALL TEACH YOU ALL things and BRING ALL things TO YOUR REMEMBRANCE WHATEVER I HAVE SAID TO YOU.] Christ is speaking to the Apostolic Fellowship, who will be endued with power from on high, by whom the Church will be guided into all truth and teach all things whatsoever Christ said, through successors, till the end of the world. CONTINUED:

 

[jlhargus]

[2 TIM 1:6 …stir up the GIFT OF GOD IN YOU BY THE PUTTING ON OF MY HANDS 7 GOD HAS GIVEN US the SPIRIT OF POWER. TITUS 1:5 For this I left you in Crete that you should set in order …and ORDAIN ELDERS in EVERY CITY AS I APPOINTED YOU. ACTS 14:23 when they had ORDAINED elders IN EVERY CHURCH and prayed with fasting they commended them to the Lord on whom they believed. ACTS 20:28 Take heed of yourself, and the flock over which the HOLY SPIRIT has MADE you OVERSEERS TO FEED THE CHURCH OF GOD purchased with his own blood, 1 TIM 5:17 Let the elders that RULE well be counted worthy of DOUBLE HONOUR especially they who labour in the WORD AND DOCTRINE. 1 Tin 4:13 Till I come attend to READING to EXHORTATION to DOCTRINE 14 Do not neglect THE GIFT in you GIVEN you by prophecy WITH THE LAYING ON OF the HANDS of the presbytery 16 TAKE HEED to yourself TO THE DOCTRINE continue in them for in doing this you shalt both SAVE yourself and THOSE WHO HEAR YOU.] I cannot find a VALID minister in the New Covenant who was not ordained and SENT directly by Christ including Paul, or SENT by laying on of hands in the apostolic line, either by an apostle or one they ordained. Except false teachers, who may even have been ordained by laying on of hands, but not SENT by the FELLOWSHIP. They go out on their own authority, I have no doubt they used and thought scripture supported their theology. Acts15:24 Forasmuch as we have heard that CERTAIN which WENT OUT FROM US have troubled you with words SUBVERTING YOUR SOULS saying Ye must be circumcised and keep the law: to whom WE GAVE NO SUCH COMMANDMENT Jer23:21 I DID NOT SEND these prophets, yet they have run with their message; I did not speak to them, yet they have prophesied [Those not sent are false teachers.] 1Jn 4:6 We are of God Whoever knows God LISTENS TO US and he who is not of God DOES NOT LISTEN TO US BY THIS WE KNOW the spirit of TRUTH and the spirit of ERROR

The Bishops of the world in union with the Bishop of Rome (the Pope) make up the Magisterium (that teaching authority sent by Christ Mt28:16-20 GO TEACH ALL NATIONS I AM WITH YOU TILL THE END). Their duty is to teach, sanctify and govern. Teach the Word of God, faith and morals, what we must believe and moral standards. Sanctify by preaching the Word of God and administering the sacraments, govern the Church for good order, Jn 17:21 THAT THEY MAY BE ONE as you Father are in me and I in you that they also may be one in us THAT THE WORLD MAY BELIEVE you SENT ME

The Catholic Church continues steadfastly in the apostles doctrine and fellowship, in breaking of bread and in prayers, ACTS 2:42. The one sent fellowship Christ sent to teach all he commanded, Mt 28:20, as he promised to sent the Holy Spirit to lead them in all truth (not part but all) Jn 16:13. He that hears you hears me, LK 10:16. If he neglect to hear the church treat him as a heathen, MT 18:17. I do not rely on my understanding nor on that of any man, no matter how learned, who in the last analysis gives only his own opinion, although he could be right at times. I prefer the assurance of those Christ SENT to lead in all truth, not hit and miss truth. to follow those, whom Christ has set over me, who have the gift of the Holy Spirit by laying on of hands in an unbroken line, to recall all Christ has taught, those to whom Christ promised the gates of hell shall never prevail against, Mt 16:18, the house of God, the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of truth, 1 TM 3:14. [Eph3:7 Whereof I was made A MINISTER, ACCORDING TO THE GIFT of the grace of God given unto me BY the effectual working OF HIS POWER. 8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ; 9 And TO MAKE ALL MEN SEE what is the fellowship of THE MYSTERY, which from the beginning of the world hath been HID IN GOD, who created all things by Jesus Christ: 10 To the intent THAT NOW unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places MIGHT BE KNOWN BY THE CHURCH the manifold wisdom of God,] CONTINUED:

 

[jlhargus]

I followed the brothers from Palestine to Rome, two of the greatest, Peter and Paul who were both martyred in Rome. The successor of Peter is the bishop of Rome, and holds the keys of the Davidic kingdom a type or foreshadowing of the regenerated and restored spiritual kingdom of Israel in the new covenant (Mt 19:28). Christ the Son of David is king in David’s line, who will build a house for God, (2Sam 7:12-14). Peter is the first minister (prime minister) [Isa22:19 I will drive you from your station 20 I will call my servant Eliakim 21 I will commit your government to his hand he shall be a father to the people of Jerusalem and to the house of Judah 22 And the key of the house of David will I lay on his shoulder so he shall open and none shall shut he shall shut and none shall open] Eliakim will be the new Prime Minster and called father of Jerusalem, in the Davidic Kingdom, he will succeed Shebna. So in the restored Kingdom of David, Peter will be Prime Minister and called father=pope in the new Jerusalem=Church. The keys indicate the holder has authority over the other royal ministers (or apostles) as they do not receive keys, also indicates the head office has successors. When the office is vacant it is filled by the King in David’s line, who is Christ, with another by giving of the keys. Jesus alluded to this passage when giving the keys to Peter, Mt 16. Incidentally if Christ is King in David’s line, his mother, which all generations will call blessed, is Gebirah (Queen Mother) 1Kings 2:19. From Solomon the son of David, who built a house for God, there was an office of queen mother in the Dividic Kingdom, the type and foreshadowing of the new Kingdom. The king Christ, the Son of David, is building a habitation for God of living stones.

The Jerusalem Council sent a letter to Antioch, with it decision settling a doctrinal dispute, which said, [Acts15:28 It seemed good to the HOLY SPIRIT and to US not to burden you with anything beyond the following requirements:] using their authority to bind and loose, Mt16:18. That magisterial teaching authority speaks with the authority of Christ, guided by the Holy Spirit, and all Christian knew it. That’s why the decision was accepted with JOY in Antioch, Acts15.

Gal2:1 Then fourteen years after I WENT UP AGAIN TO JERUSALEM with Barnabas, and took Titus with me also. 2 And I went up BY REVELATION, and COMMUNICATED UNTO THEM that GOSPEL which I PREACH among the Gentiles, but privately to them which were of reputation, LEST BY ANY MEANS I SHOULD run, or HAD RUN, IN VAIN. [Even though sent by Christ, Paul who had the gift of revelation, realized he could possibly not be preaching the same gospel as the Apostolic Fellowship. Paul was inspired by revelation to check his teaching with the teaching of the Apostles’ Fellowship. Those SENT by Christ, to teach ALL NATIONS and ALL Christ commanded till the end of the age. The Apostolic Fellowship Christ promised the Holy Spirit would guide in ALL TRUTH. If individual Christians had the ability to be led into all truth, because they have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, we would all be one without the lest disagreement. We can see that is not the case.

What did people do the first time the gospel was preached by Peter? Acts2:41 Then THEY THAT gladly RECEIVED HIS WORD were BAPTIZED: and the same day there WERE ADDED UNTO THEM about three thousand souls. 42 And THEY CONTINUED steadfastly IN the APOSTLES’ DOCTRINE and FELLOWSHIP, and in BREAKING OF BREAD, and in PRAYERS. [Those that received his word were baptized. They were brought into the Church by baptism and continued steadfastly in the One Holy Catholic Apostolic Fellowship.] 1Cor 1:9 God is faithful you were called into THE FELLOWSHIP OF his Son JESUS CHRIST 10 I appeal to you BREATHREN by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ that all of you AGREE that there be no dissensions among you that you BE UNITED in the same mind and the same judgment. 1Jn 4:6 We are of God Whoever knows God LISTENS TO US and he who is not of God DOES NOT LISTEN TO US BY THIS WE KNOW the spirit of TRUTH and the spirit of ERROR

[Mk 9:38 And JOHN answered him SAYING MASTER we saw one casting out devils in thy name and HE FOLLOWETH NOT US and WE FORBAD HIM because HE FOLLOWETH NOT US 39 But JESUS SAID FORBID HIM NOT for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name that can lightly speak evil of me 40 For he that is not against US is on OUR PART.] The Holy Spirit works in those separated denominations outside the Apostles Fellowship. Uniting them to that one fellowship in a spiritual way. CONTINUED:

 

[Contarini]

People who are saved still sin? I was on a protestant site recently that explained it to me in a different way. They said that if someone repents and accepts Jesus but later falls back into a life of sin they were never truely saved. They stated that if someone is living a life in sin but thinks they are saved, there is a probability that they are being misled and should re-examine their salvation. This is still Once Saved Always Saved like you are stating but worded a little differently. You claim that once you accept Jesus and are saved you are forever saved even if you fall back into sin. These protestants also claim OSAS but if you are sinning then you’re not TRUELY SAVED.

There is certainly a difference of opinion among OSAS folks on this score. The view you found on the website is the older and probably the more widespread one (at least I hope so). However, it’s important to distinguish: all OSAS folks would say that true believers sin. The argument is that a true believer will not sin habitually and unrepentantly. A true believer will hate sin and will repent after sinning. Bear in mind that we are talking about what Catholics would call venial as well as mortal sins here.

've also spoke with protestants who state that their church/pastor teaches that you CAN fall out of salvation.

Certainly. OSAS is only believed by the Calvinist tradition and by Protestants (mostly Baptists in belief if not always in name) who stem from Calvinism but have thrown many aspects of it overboard. Of course, you could argue that all Protestants except for Lutherans and perhaps Anabaptists are renegade Calvinists!

Edwin

 

[Jerry-Jet]

OSAS is false because God does not limit freedom of the will of man.

 

[Crumpy]

OSAS is false because God does not limit freedom of the will of man.

(First, let me say “thanks” for the brevity of your post. Why does everybody make those long speeches?)

I read that the Jews believe in some arrangement like purgatory, where in the average person will have to hang around for about a year until they are admitted into the presence of God.

There are apparently seven words for heaven in the Hebrew Scripture, so they rationalize these as hierarchical, God being in the highest, seventh heaven.

I’m not sure, by any stretch of the imagination, but maybe they also think that there’s no salvation for people with the sins in the Bible that have death as a penalty. That position would essentually rule out a Jewish OSAS, for example (to state the relevance of this post).

 

[ralphy]

(First, let me say “thanks” for the brevity of your post. Why does everybody make those long speeches?)

I read that the Jews believe in some arrangement like purgatory, where in the average person will have to hang around for about a year until they are admitted into the presence of God.

There are apparently seven words for heaven in the Hebrew Scripture, so they rationalize these as hierarchical, God being in the highest, seventh heaven.

I’m not sure, by any stretch of the imagination, but maybe they also think that there’s no salvation for people with the sins in the Bible that have death as a penalty. That position would essentually rule out a Jewish OSAS, for example (to state the relevance of this post).

Can you tell me where to find purgatory in the bible. Ralph

 

[zach_dunn]

Can you tell me where to find purgatory in the bible. Ralph

2 Maccabees 12:46 and 1 Corinthians 3:15

 

[sodak]

And since you’ve never answered my questions on which Bible to read, I’d be interested in your response to this one.