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paul_c
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Ralph, if you were a Catholic for 43 years, why don’t you know any of this?
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Tomster
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The Communion of Saints is a truth of faith. It consists in an intimate union and in a mutual influence among the members of the Church Militant, Church Suffering, and Church Triumphant (the Church on earth, in Purgatory, and in heaven). This union and participation of the proper goods of the Church is founded chiefly on the truth of the Mystical Body of Christ, through which all men in the large sense belong to Christ in virtue of the Incarnation and the Redemption; in the strict sense they are but one thing in Christ, as members of a sole organism, by force of baptism, and, therefore, of faith and charity. In this mystical organism, which is the Church, Christ the Head injects the supernatural grace by means of the Holy Spirit, who is like the soul. United to Christ, the faithful are united among themselve; and this union is reinforced by the sacraments, channels of that grace which is the participation of the divine nature and the cause of the indwelling of the Holy Trinity in each sanctified soul. The gospel image of the vine (Christ) and the tendrils (Christians), the doctrine developed by St. Paul (1 Corinthians, Collosians, Ephesians, Romans) about the Mystical Body and the Church, are a living expression of the dogma of the Communion of Saints.
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Tomster
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Another most excellent question which will probably go unanswered!
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Odell
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Ralphy you must realize that even the jews understood only God forgives sin but /od founded a priesthodd that they brought there sin offering to. Christ founded a new priesthood you acknowledge the fact that they had this power to forgive sin. So you must also understand that the early Jew converting christians knew God was the one forgiven the sin threw the priest . And why would God give the apostles the power to forgive if Jesus was alreadfy there in the first place?
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ralphy
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So the “communion of saints” is a Roman catholic doctrine and therefor not scriptural, something added for again. Ralph
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paul_c
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Ralph, how could you possibly ask a question like this if you were a Catholic for 43 years as you claim? Isn’t the truth, that you were never a Catholic as you claim because these are not complex doctrines. My 8th great students (at least those that were paying attention) could easily explain that the members of the church work together to help each other achieve salvation. Do you think that helping each other achieve salvation is non-scriptural?
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CentralFLJames
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Ralphy, you really need to read your bible more often and with greater comprehension:
We are One Family in Christ in Heaven and on Earth
Eph. 3:14-15- we are all one family (“Catholic”) in heaven and on earth, united together, as children of the Father, through Jesus Christ. Our brothers and sisters who have gone to heaven before us are not a different family. We are one and the same family. This is why, in the Apostles Creed, we profess a belief in the “communion of saints.” There cannot be a “communion” if there is no union. Loving beings, whether on earth or in heaven, are concerned for other beings, and this concern is reflected spiritually through prayers for one another.
Eph. 1:22-23; 5:23-32; Col. 1:18,24 - this family is in Jesus Christ, the head of the body, which is the Church.
1 Cor. 12:12,27; Rom. 12:5; Col. 3:15; Eph. 4:4 - we are the members of the one body of Christ, supernaturally linked together by our partaking of the Eucharist.
Rom. 8:35-39 - therefore, death does not separate the family of God and the love of Christ. We are still united with each other, even beyond death.
Matt. 17:3; Mark 9:4; Luke 9:30 - Jesus converses with “deceased” Moses and Elijah. They are more alive than the saints on earth.
Matt. 22:32; Mark 12:27; Luke 20:38 - God is the God of the living not the dead. The living on earth and in heaven are one family.
Luke 15:7,10 – if the angels and saints experience joy in heaven over our repentance, then they are still connected to us and are aware of our behavior.
John 15:1-6 - Jesus is the vine and we are the branches. The good branches are not cut off at death. They are alive in heaven.
1 Cor. 4:9 – because we can become a spectacle not only to men, but to angels as well, this indicates that angels are aware of our earthly activity. Those in heaven are connected to those on earth.
1 Cor. 12:26 - when one member suffers, all suffer. When one is honored, all rejoice. We are in this together as one family.
1 Cor 13:12; 1 John 3:2 - now we see in a mirror dimly, but in heaven we see face to face. The saints are more alive than we are!
Heb. 12:1: we are surrounded by a great glory cloud (shekinah) of witnesses. The “cloud of witnesses” refers to the saints who are not only watching us from above but cheering us on in our race to heaven.
1 Peter 2:9; Rev. 20:6 - we are a royal family of priests by virtue of baptism. We as priests intercede on behalf of each other.
2 Peter 1:4 - since God is the eternal family and we are His children, we are partakers of His divine nature as a united family.
1 Cor. 1:2; Rom. 1:7 - we are called to be saints. Saints refer to both those on earth and in heaven who are in Christ. Proof:
Acts 9:13,32,41; 26:10; 1 Cor. 6:1-2; 14:33; 2 Cor. 1:1; 8:4; 9:1-2; 13:13; Rom. 8:27; 12:23; 15:25,26, 31; 16:2,15; Eph. 1:1,15,18; 3:8; 5:3; 6:18; Phil. 1:1; 4:22; Col 1:2,4,26; 1 Tm 5:10; Philemon 1:5,7; Heb. 6:10; 13:24; Jude 1:3; Rev. 11:18; 13:7; 14:12; 16:6; 17:6;18:20,24; Rev 19:8; 20:9 - in these verses, we see that Christians still living on earth are called “saints.”
Matt. 27:52; Eph. 2:19; 3:18; Col. 1:12; 2 Thess. 1:10; Rev. 5:8; 8:3-4; 11:18; 13:10 - in these verses, we also see that “saints” also refer to those in heaven who united with us.
Dan. 4:13,23; 8:23 – we also see that the angels in heaven are also called “saints.” The same Hebrew word “qaddiysh” (holy one) is applied to both humans and angels in heaven. Hence, there are angel saints in heaven and human saints in heaven and on earth. Loving beings (whether angels or saints) are concerned for other beings, and prayer is the spiritual way of expressing that love.
More here: SAINTS AND INTERCESSORY PRAYER
James
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SteveGC
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43 years, ralphy? Really? paul c really has a point here.
I’ve been a Catholic for 2. Before that, I knew very little. Why is it I know all these things and more, already? I mean, I’m not suggesting that you should have accepted everything you learned in 43 years…but it seems painfully obvious that either you learned very little, if anything, in those 43 years, in which case I would conclude you did not practice your faith that much…
or you do know it all, and are just feigning ignorance, creating questions about basic Catholic teaching, so that when you get the answer, you pick your pre-rehearsed cut-and-paste rebuttal.
Either way, it is painfully clear that you’ve been seduced by anti-Catholic rhetoric, and that you couldn’t care LESS about what our answers are. Not one iota do you care.
I have a question for you…
If you were to ask us what aspect of our Christian faith is most important to us, and what aspect of our faith does the Catholic Church engrain within us the most…
and if our answers to both of those questions was this: Our relationship with Jesus Christ…
what would your response to that be? (hint: that IS what our answer would be)
God Bless
I’ve been a Catholic for 2. Before that, I knew very little. Why is it I know all these things and more, already? I mean, I’m not suggesting that you should have accepted everything you learned in 43 years…but it seems painfully obvious that either you learned very little, if anything, in those 43 years, in which case I would conclude you did not practice your faith that much…
or you do know it all, and are just feigning ignorance, creating questions about basic Catholic teaching, so that when you get the answer, you pick your pre-rehearsed cut-and-paste rebuttal.
Either way, it is painfully clear that you’ve been seduced by anti-Catholic rhetoric, and that you couldn’t care LESS about what our answers are. Not one iota do you care.
I have a question for you…
If you were to ask us what aspect of our Christian faith is most important to us, and what aspect of our faith does the Catholic Church engrain within us the most…
and if our answers to both of those questions was this: Our relationship with Jesus Christ…
what would your response to that be? (hint: that IS what our answer would be)
God Bless
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mary1173
Guest
OMG! I can’t believe this… Ralphy, you’ve got the whole concept messed up. Catholics don’t pay their way out of Purgatory. The church asks donations for the upkeep of the church so you can gather as a group to pray. Prayers in numbers works wonders.
Mass cards are placed out for the prayers on them to provide peace of mind, body and spirit to the grieving family members. Not so the church can get more money out of the family.
And as far as the original question goes…wherever we lost track of it…People go to church to find comfort from pain, stress and illness, yes, but also to celebrate the fact that God created us to serve Him by loving and caring for one another
The apostles before being given the power to forgive sins were not dead… Christ breathed upon them and bestowed upon them the gift of the Holy Spirit, that they would do good works for the kingdom to come.
Christ choosing Peter to be the “cornerstone” of the foundation of His church was to show to mankind that even the worst sinners can be forgiven if they are repentant in their hearts and minds to God. Peter was not a weak man, he[Peter] was given revelation from Adonai the God our Father that Chist is the Messiah. Not anyone or anything else
If you have a problem ask
You cannot learn if you do not ask.
Hope I clarified some of the question for you, Ralphy. Peace to you.
Mary1173
Mass cards are placed out for the prayers on them to provide peace of mind, body and spirit to the grieving family members. Not so the church can get more money out of the family.
And as far as the original question goes…wherever we lost track of it…People go to church to find comfort from pain, stress and illness, yes, but also to celebrate the fact that God created us to serve Him by loving and caring for one another
The apostles before being given the power to forgive sins were not dead… Christ breathed upon them and bestowed upon them the gift of the Holy Spirit, that they would do good works for the kingdom to come.
Christ choosing Peter to be the “cornerstone” of the foundation of His church was to show to mankind that even the worst sinners can be forgiven if they are repentant in their hearts and minds to God. Peter was not a weak man, he[Peter] was given revelation from Adonai the God our Father that Chist is the Messiah. Not anyone or anything else
If you have a problem ask
You cannot learn if you do not ask.
Hope I clarified some of the question for you, Ralphy. Peace to you.
Mary1173
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ralphy
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When I attended the Roman catholic church from childhood, I was told that the Roman catholic was the right church, every other church was wrong. I accepted all that I was taught and questioned nothing. If the priest was at fault, one was not to say anything to him or about him. Many things that were done in the church were (and still are) very “religious” and done a certain way, with a lot of pomp and ceremony. I even served on the altar as an altar boy. I was safe and pretty sure of going to heaven,of course that is why I never questioned anything. The bible was only exposed on the altar and no catholic that I know of ever read the bible or even had one at home. The catechism was the book for sunday school, it indoctrinated a person into the teaching of the catholic church, which would keep one from reading the bible (if one had one). I look at it now as a brain washing system, ingraining one into a certain “system” as a young boy. That system stayed with me until I was 43, at that time I went to a bible study where I could see for myself in Gods word what was going on. It disturbed me that I didn’t know a thing about the real meaning of salvation and how to obtain eternal life in heaven, scary, after the fact, that I would have gone to hell the way I was going, because I had “religion”, but did not have Christ as my Savior. I did come out of that “system” and now I serve the Lord as He leads me. I am on the internet to hopefully inject some light into this religious system, as the Holy Spirit directs me. When I reach the point on the internet: Mark 6:10-11, then I will depart. Ralph
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SteveGC
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Sounds like 43 years of spiritual confusion for you, ralphy. And I sympathize with your frustration with the Christian upbringing you endured for all those years.
If I may be so bold to say, it sounds also like you were brought up with an iron fist, in the home and perhaps in The Church as well? As a child and teenager, I can imagine it did you no good to be exposed to such ‘dictatorship’ without genuine guidance and direction in the Catholic faith. Someone seems to have done you a great disservice. Perhaps many were involved. I have heard that complaint before from others in their 50’s and 60’s. They say they grew up not being properly led and guided through the Church, but rather dragged into it against their will. Asking questions was something you just didn’t do. I don’t know where that comes from…some sort of generational disciplinary method to keep kids in line and obedient to their parents, elders and clergy? It’s a shame really, because I think the Church lost alot of potentially excellent Catholics in those decades because of this poor catechesis. Hard to say, though, where the blame lies. I’m sure it’s several things.
I’ve heard about the ‘don’t read your Bible’ demand the Church used to make. Not sure how true it is, but I’ve heard it before. I think there’s some genuine truth to it. Also a shame. Did you not ever fully appreciate the fact that you heard the written word at every Mass you attended? OT, Psalms, Epistles, Gospel, and homily? I assume by the time you were old enough to realize that the Bible is very present at Church, you had already developed a callous attitude toward Mass, based on your harsh upbringing?
Some people would say that poor catechesis is not any one person’s fault. The Church, parents and catechists have a huge responsibility to aid in the formation of young Catholics everywhere. I think there’s historically been some huge problems and shortcomings with this responsibility, and it has had tragic results, massive departures from The Church and lukewarmness of those who stayed.
On the other hand, the catechumen also has responsibility, especially as they mature, to be attentive, inquisitive and seek spiritual direction. I’m sure it’s all the more challenging for them to do this, if the aforementioned parties fail on their end of the bargain. Still, I have a feeling you were quite lackluster in your effort to really discern the truth of The Church, especially in the last 10-15 years, when there has been an abundance of catechetical outreach from The Church, Catholic theologians and apologists, and genuine Catholic media (EWTN, Catholic Radio, internet) available to disspell myth upon myth and shepherd fallen away Catholics back home.
For what it’s worth, I’m sorry you had such a distasteful experience in The Church, ralphy. I really am. I know you think you’ve found freedom at last, and you think you are finally aware of what Christ wants. You think you left a ‘system’ for a relationship, a man-made religion for Jesus alone. But the truth is, you left behind Fullness for partiality, unity for division, Christ’s teachings for man’s interpretations. You will be offended at that comment, perhaps. And so I apologize in advance. But whether you see it or not, that’s the deal.
It’s interesting that you feel a calling to ‘inject the Truth’ on these forums, but no calling to absorb what we have to offer you in return. I doubt that you give any genuine attention to the endless amount of insightful knowledge the many astute Catholics on this site give to you. Not many people who claim to have an open mind, actually have one. I wonder if you do. You used Mark 6:10-11 to describe your ‘mission’ here. I found it ironic you would sum up your CAF mission here with a biblical message from Christ specifically to the twelve, and yet you wouldn’t claim that the very next 2 verses after those, would apply to you as well.
Then I thought…well…no, not so ironic. For it’s been a staple for you from the outset here…claiming to be the direct addressee of every utterance Christ ever made, elevating yourself to the designation of apostle, as it were. So it’s very fitting that you think you have been charged with apostolic directives. I think someday when you recognize that there are specific roles for specific people in the story of salvation, you may very well start engaging us here on this forum in a more genuine, student-oriented way.
Until then, God be with you.
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Tomster
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Wrong again.
Try and grasp these theological points Ralphy. All the faithful who are openly and fully of the Church are, by vocation, members of Christ the Redeemer. They should, by vocation, take upon themselves the burden of salvation of all men, known or unknown, now journeying with them on this planet towards eternity. Not only that, they should help to bear the sufferings of those in Purgatory, who still need their prayers. It is by vocation that the Church prays for the salvation of the world. But it is clear that the faithful of the Church, and the whole Church on earth, will not be able to support this unless interiorly sustained by the cross of Christ which, in one instant of time whose efficacy always remains present, bore upon its sole self the weight of all the sins of all nations and all ages.
But if all the children of the Church are called to be co-redemptive members, if they are all co-redeemers in respect of their state and virtually, only those who are fully faithful, those who follow their vocation to the end and live only that Christ may live in them, are co-redeemers effectively and actually. These are noble men, useful to all Christendom; they avail for the betterment of mankind, for the glory of God, and the consolation of all men. These are they on whom the Holy Church relies, and if they did not exist in Christendom, Christendom would not survive for an hour. Their mere existence, the sole fact that they are, is something more precious and more useful than all the activity in the world. For these are at the heart of the Church. Such are the Saints, filled with the apostolic spirit, which is nothing other than the spirit of Christ. Such, above all, was Our Lady, whose co-redemptive dignity has been recognized by the Church.
Twenty centuries after Christ the Church, the great Church, is still no more than a little flock. She alone is chosen, not the rest of the world; but chosen for the redemption of the rest of the world. Her way of being saved in Christ is to save others in Christ. And thus the whole immense human multitude may be divided into two parts: those whom Christ’s action reaches through the hierarchy and who become redemptive members, savior members, by vocation: and those whom He reaches only by action from a distance, and who, in part, on account of the prayers and sufferings of the others, can be members redeemed, members saved. When they approach the Church, and enter the zone ofthe indirect action of the hierarchy, they too may begin to have a part in redeeming the world.
This is a glorious thing for the Church, but a difficult vocation for Christians. The Church exults in the witness that she has to bear, and the Christian exults in the Church. She knows it to be her strict duty to confess the holy reality of the privileges she has received. The divine Liberty gives as It pleases. But it is in a frail vessel, as St. Paul says, that every faithful soul bears grace.
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ralphy
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“Our Lady, whose co-redemptive dignity has been recognized by the church”. I have a problem with statements like this, which are made up by the"church", and are not backed up by scripture. This is another “gospel”, God will not tolerate this type of teaching. Ralph
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fbl9
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just because you don’t like it doesn’t mean God doesn’t ralphy ,unless you think that you are God…
ralphy how does mankind’s salvation come about? does come by that which is purely spritual or that which is purely pysical? or by both?
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ralphy
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Read Eph 2:8,9 to find out about salvation. Ralphjust because you don’t like it doesn’t mean God doesn’t ralphy ,unless you think that you are God…
ralphy how does mankind’s salvation come about? does come by that which is purely spritual or that which is purely pysical? or by both?
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fbl9
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so then you believe mankind"s salvation came about by that which is only spiritual…then you truly do not believe in Christ Jesus…for He is spiritual and physical. and He obtained our salvation by a PHYSICAL act,not a purely spiritual act.
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Catholicc
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ralphy
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Jesus shed His blood on the cross of Calvary for all mankind," without the shedding of there is no remission of sin". You asked me how we get saved, again Eph2:8,9. Ralph
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Catholicc
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Eisogesis
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fbl9
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read the question ralphy…“how does mankind’s salvation come about?” now you change your tune and say it comes about by a purely phsical act.
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