Rampant Scrupulosity

[BornInMarch]

How come half of all posts on this forum consist of “is x [insert harmless behavioral habit here] a sin?”.

It is distressing to see people fearing for their immortal souls over sins so venial as to not even be negligible. Worst is when people fear for their soul simply because they felt temptation to sin (temptations they didn’t even act on!).

Saint Paul murdered Christians in cold blood. Saint Theophilus sold his soul to the devil (not metaphorically, literally! The devil himself *literally *appeared before Theophilus, and Theophilus *literally *signed a contract offering his eternal soul to Satan).

In case you didn’t already guess, those two were forgiven by God when they repented (The Church doesn’t give the title of “Saint” to people she thinks is in Hell).

The best way to deal with the “Is X sinful?” is to bring it up in confession. Try to go to confession regularly, so that if you die in-between confessions God will still know you were planning on going. Pray for the forgiveness of sins at least once a day, as it can be hoped that God will forgive unconfessed mortal sins if you pray in your last moments (the Church says this is why Suicides don’t always go to Hell).

Try to be a good person, try to be a faithful person, and try to confess and make amends whenever you stumble. God doesn’t call anyone to be miserable, and he certainly doesn’t call anyone to perfection.

 

[Viki63]

This is kinda like telling a depressed person to cheer up and get over himself, and he will be fine.

Scrupulosity is a problem for some people, and they post here because they’re worried for their immortal souls, and need some reassurance. If we can give it to them, why not? A lot of the posts here are about pretty basic stuff, but the truth is, when it happens to you, you may need some moral support.

So we tell them, no it doesn’t appear that you sinned, but talk to your priest about it and follow his instructions.
Everybody feels better.

At least they’re concerned about their souls, and not about their stock portfolio!

.

 

[PolarGuy]

Borninmarch’s complaint is a perfectly valid one, and I disagree with viki’s criticism.

First, there is in fact rampant scrupulously on this board, so much so that it makes Catholics look to outsiders like sin-obsessed loons. A term I’ve seen used, that I liked, was “spiritual paranoia.”

Second, the answer is NOT to keep telling people, as many do, “there are 3 things needed for mortal sin, etc.”, as all that does is encourage this board to become as spiritual crutch where people run to, over and over again. The people who post here aren’t growing.

Third, these sort of posts give a terribly distorted view of what Catholicism is. Too many here view it as a series of rules when in reality it’s about a relationship between you, God, and other people.

The problem has actually gotten so bad IMHO that people who have a lot to offer just leave (or post a lot less) because they decide that this board isn’t “Catholic answers forum” so much as it’s “Catholics in need of psychological help.” Number me among those who believe that, so much so that of late I question why I even come here.

 

[Rbaker]

Borninmarch’s complaint is a perfectly valid one, and I disagree with viki’s criticism.

First, there is in fact rampant scrupulously on this board, so much so that it makes Catholics look to outsiders like sin-obsessed loons. A term I’ve seen used, that I liked, was “spiritual paranoia.”

Second, the answer is NOT to keep telling people, as many do, “there are 3 things needed for mortal sin, etc.”, as all that does is encourage this board to become as spiritual crutch where people run to, over and over again. The people who post here aren’t growing.

Third, these sort of posts give a terribly distorted view of what Catholicism is. Too many here view it as a series of rules when in reality it’s about a relationship between you, God, and other people.

The problem has actually gotten so bad IMHO that people who have a lot to offer just leave (or post a lot less) because they decide that this board isn’t “Catholic answers forum” so much as it’s “Catholics in need of psychological help.” Number me among those who believe that, so much so that of late I question why I even come here.

I couldn’t agree more. We should do God’s will because it makes him happy and is good for us, not because we fear going to hell. I think the majority of people here are more afraid of going to hell, than they are hopeful of reaching heaven.

Also I too frequent this site less often because of the scrupulosity on here, but it’s mainly the trolls who come here for nothing but debates and stirring the pot that force me to leave

 

[WJeffrey]

Borninmarch’s complaint is a perfectly valid one, and I disagree with viki’s criticism.

First, there is in fact rampant scrupulously on this board, so much so that it makes Catholics look to outsiders like sin-obsessed loons. A term I’ve seen used, that I liked, was “spiritual paranoia.”

Second, the answer is NOT to keep telling people, as many do, “there are 3 things needed for mortal sin, etc.”, as all that does is encourage this board to become as spiritual crutch where people run to, over and over again. The people who post here aren’t growing.

Third, these sort of posts give a terribly distorted view of what Catholicism is. Too many here view it as a series of rules when in reality it’s about a relationship between you, God, and other people.

The problem has actually gotten so bad IMHO that people who have a lot to offer just leave (or post a lot less) because they decide that this board isn’t “Catholic answers forum” so much as it’s “Catholics in need of psychological help.” Number me among those who believe that, so much so that of late I question why I even come here.

People who come to this forum are at many different places on their spiritual journey. Some people need Catholic Answers regarding their understanding of sin. If that bothers you, don’t click on those posts.

Acting superior to those people and putting them down is a very non Catholic way of treating a fellow Catholic and human being. To me, it seems to be more the behavior of the Pharisees than that of Christ.

Perhaps you need to read your third point until the part about “other people” sinks in.

Even bullies do not like other bullies.

 

[LightBound]

People who come to this forum are at many different places on their spiritual journey. Some people need Catholic Answers regarding their understanding of sin. If that bothers you, don’t click on those posts.

Acting superior to those people and putting them down is a very non Catholic way of treating a fellow Catholic and human being. To me, it seems to be more the behavior of the Pharisees than that of Christ.

Perhaps you need to read your third point until the part about “other people” sinks in.

Even bullies do not like other bullies.

What is frustrating is when those with the scrupulous posts are told over and over to seek out their confessor for spiritual direction and they refuse, only to show up again a few days later with another question on scrupulosity. I have read many of those posts and the ones I am referring to are not in a third world country without transportation or access to a priest.

 

[WJeffrey]

If you don’t click on them, they won’t bother you. Ignore them.

Tearing those people down is very mean spirited.

Perhaps God is putting those people into your life to teach you a lesson that you missed while discussing Aquinas?

I know I have reacted poorly in the past to them at times myself. When I do react poorly, usually the problem is with me and not with them. At least that is what I try to drill into my thick head.

 

[PolarGuy]

Wjeffrey, you are part of the problem. I can forgive/understand those with psychological problems, precisely because they have problems. What I take serious issue with is those who empower them; encourage them to come here when they should be told to seek professional help; and attack me when I point out that that is precisely what they need.

The only reason I don’t abandon this board is because I won’t leave it to the extreme zealots who are the other sizable plurality of this board.

 

[PolarGuy]

And while we’re at it, Jeffrey, spare us the silliness about “some are on a spiritual journey!” There’s a difference between “being on a journey” and “being messed up,” and vey few people get told “you need professional help.” Certainly that would be in order when, for example, people are told how wonderful when a woman gets raped and doesn’t fight back because all violence is evil, and a host of insanity masquerading as theological advice.

 

[1Lord1Faith]

Born in March & Polar Guy have a point worth noting, that threads on this subject pale in comparison to threads about scrupulous behavior. I never even knew what scrupulous meant until I joined CAF, no joke.

People must know that Catholisicm is not leagalistic, but instead a religion where love and charity always have the right- of-way. But don’t misunderstand this as a license to do whatever you want, it’s not if you want to see God.

I once told a poster here who was looking for every single intellectual reason in existence before considering Catholisicm, that he shouldn’t join if he was going to take a legalistic approach to it.

 

[LightBound]

People who come to this forum are at many different places on their spiritual journey. Some people need Catholic Answers regarding their understanding of sin. If that bothers you, don’t click on those posts.

Acting superior to those people and putting them down is a very non Catholic way of treating a fellow Catholic and human being. To me, it seems to be more the behavior of the Pharisees than that of Christ.

Perhaps you need to read your third point until the part about “other people” sinks in.

Even bullies do not like other bullies.

It is extremely frustrating to have the same people post the same scrupulous questions over and over and refuse to see their confessor for spiritual direction…especially when their questions are constantly met with responses to seek a regular confessor and they choose not to do so!

 

[WJeffrey]

I get tired in the same way that you do. “Loons” and “messed up” people who ask if it was a sin if they didn’t go back into the store to tell the cashier that he gave them $.64 instead of $.63 bother you. “Expletives” who call those people “loons” when they are simply looking for some spiritual guidance bother me.

At least the “loons” who ask those questions are not demeaning other people so that they can feel superior.

Doing that is not Catholic behavior.

 

[WJeffrey]

And while we’re at it, Jeffrey, spare us the silliness about “some are on a spiritual journey!” There’s a difference between “being on a journey” and “being messed up,” and vey few people get told “you need professional help.” Certainly that would be in order when, for example, people are told how wonderful when a woman gets raped and doesn’t fight back because all violence is evil, and a host of insanity masquerading as theological advice.

I get tired in the same way that you do. “Loons” and “messed up” people who ask if it was a sin if they didn’t go back into the store to tell the cashier that he gave them $.64 instead of $.63 bother you. “Expletives” who call those people “loons” when they are simply looking for some spiritual guidance bother me.

At least the “loons” who ask those questions are not demeaning other people so that they can feel superior.

Doing that is not Catholic behavior.

 

[Bookcat]

I will re-post an older post of mine

A person struggles with scruples - what ought they do?

A person with scrupulosity --ought to have a* “regular confessor” *who can direct them --and even give them some general principles/rules to follow -to apply (principles for them due to their particular scruples -they are usually not for those with a normal conscience). Thus with their direction they can dismiss scruples. Such is the age old practice in the Church.

*Scruples are to be dismissed not argued with.

Scruples are like a barking dog or a hissing goose -one does not stop to argue with a barking dog or a hissing goose does one? * One keeps walking.

(image from a Carthusian writer from centuries ago).

As to counseling - that could be helpful depending on the case -but one would want to look for a counselor who can assist one in following the Churches Teachings - not go contrary to them (I have heard CA staff mention catholictherapists.com/) Some person with scrupulosity may yes also suffer from OCD - but the two are not simply equated.

Here is an article from Jimmy Akin of CA that I saw in the Register and saved for those who struggle with such.

ncregister.com/blog/jimmy-akin/6-tools-for-the-scrupulous

---

Also I will add that a person can go through a case of “transient scruples”. Which is good news in a way. For they are more easily dealt with.

Such can be due to being a convert to the faith. Such is noted in theological works in terms of (some of) those who have a conversion (even if they were a Catholic all their life - but now have had a more intense turning to Christ and seeking Christian perfection).

Such can even be helpful for they can make one be more sensitive in conscience in a good way. Helpful that is if you have a regular confessor who can judge your case - and who can then direct you and help you in forming your conscience and in doing so the “transient scruples” can clear up and one can go forward with a better formed conscience and commitment to the Lord.

In any case - a regular confessor is key for those who struggle with scruples - be they transient or a more persistent difficulty

Work with a regular confessor he can determine if one struggles from scruples and guide one.

 

[PolarGuy]

WJeffrey, those people who run to this board for their scrupulosity are “demeaning.” They are demeaning Catholicism by depicting it as spiritual paranoia; they demean the time and kindness of those who would offer bona fide advice, regardless of whether such advice might be a bit of tough love.

Further, those others who encourage the scrupulous to run to this board to answer their problems, or who patronize them, demean the scrupulous and those who would try to help them, just as much as it is demeaning to give booze to an alcoholic.

 

[PolarGuy]

One of the truly great aspects of Catholicism is that there are moral absolutes therein. Some things are right; some are wrong. There are shades of grey in many things, but there are nonetheless moral absolutes.

Saying, “we’re all on a spiritual journey!” is in fact equivalent to saying “there are no rights and wrongs.” Yes, some are on a journey. But so too some people are, for lack of a better phrase, “messed up,” and those people need to be told to seek professional help, not “encouraged to keep doing the same things,” including being told “stop running to this board to keep asking the same questions over and over again.”

 

[LightBound]

I will re-post an older post of mine

A person struggles with scruples - what ought they do?

A person with scrupulosity --ought to have a* “regular confessor” *who can direct them --and even give them some general principles/rules to follow -to apply (principles for them due to their particular scruples -they are usually not for those with a normal conscience). Thus with their direction they can dismiss scruples. Such is the age old practice in the Church.

*Scruples are to be dismissed not argued with.

Scruples are like a barking dog or a hissing goose -one does not stop to argue with a barking dog or a hissing goose does one? * One keeps walking.

(image from a Carthusian writer from centuries ago).

As to counseling - that could be helpful depending on the case -but one would want to look for a counselor who can assist one in following the Churches Teachings - not go contrary to them (I have heard CA staff mention catholictherapists.com/) Some person with scrupulosity may yes also suffer from OCD - but the two are not simply equated.

Here is an article from Jimmy Akin of CA that I saw in the Register and saved for those who struggle with such.

ncregister.com/blog/jimmy-akin/6-tools-for-the-scrupulous

---

Also I will add that a person can go through a case of “transient scruples”. Which is good news in a way. For they are more easily dealt with.

Such can be due to being a convert to the faith. Such is noted in theological works in terms of (some of) those who have a conversion (even if they were a Catholic all their life - but now have had a more intense turning to Christ and seeking Christian perfection).

Such can even be helpful for they can make one be more sensitive in conscience in a good way. Helpful that is if you have a regular confessor who can judge your case - and who can then direct you and help you in forming your conscience and in doing so the “transient scruples” can clear up and one can go forward with a better formed conscience and commitment to the Lord.

In any case - a regular confessor is key for those who struggle with scruples - be they transient or a more persistent difficulty

Work with a regular confessor he can determine if one struggles from scruples and guide one.

It is so frustrating when those with scruples post over and over on the forum, yet refuse to follow the recommendations and admonitions to seek a spiritual director or a regular confessor. It gets tiring to read post after post of their “is this a sin”, only to be followed with their reply of “I haven’t made an appointment with my confessor yet”. If you can post on a forum, you can email your priest for an appointment!

 

[pianistclare]

WJeffrey, those people who run to this board for their scrupulosity are “demeaning.” They are demeaning Catholicism by depicting it as spiritual paranoia; they demean the time and kindness of those who would offer bona fide advice, regardless of whether such advice might be a bit of tough love.

Further, those others who encourage the scrupulous to run to this board to answer their problems, or who patronize them, demean the scrupulous and those who would try to help them, just as much as it is demeaning to give booze to an alcoholic.

Yes. This^^^.

People on a journey eventually meet their destination. A relationship with God, not internet strangers.

 

[Mintaka]

If you want to change forum rules, you need to be talking to the forum administrators. Form a proposal. Take action. Heck, get people banned, if that excites you.

If you just want to complain, and discourage all inexperienced people from asking any questions whatsoever… well, that’s a choice, too.

Of course people need to talk to their priests. Scrupulous people in these discussions are told to talk to their priests. And amazingly, just like everyone else, a lot of scrupulous people do not immediately gather the courage to talk to their priests, even when they know they should. Which is why the advice gets repeated so often.

Sometimes it takes repetition. There are very few amendments to my life that I was able to make right away, and without encouragement and repetition of advice.

If people use the Internet as an excuse not to talk to their priests, there really isn’t any way for us to know that or to stop that. Even if you ban people, they can just make a new account and try again. What, are we going to drive to their houses and knock them unconscious, then drag them into the rectory and tie them up for the priest to find in the morning?

There’s one advantage to scrupulous people’s posts that you haven’t mentioned. We can pray for them, and tell them that we are praying for them. Of course the communion of saints still works without Internet posting, but there’s no denying that praying for a specific person adds a certain grace and helps us pray.

Let people ask questions. If they’re scrupulous, let the commentariat give them the standard advice. Wash. Rinse. Repeat as needed.

 

[Isca]

I’d never come across the term “scrupulosity” either, until I joined this forum. The actively-charitable Catholics I know don’t even consider themselves very spiritual, they don’t think about “being Catholic” much - but to me, they are living their faith.

One lady (in her 70s, with a sick husband) spends all her time doing things for him and others. This involves buying for the soup kitchen, going to Mass virtually every day and helping there, organising parcels for Christmas for the house-bound and organising the Christmas lunch, helping whenever needed at the daily food distribution at church, taking various old people here, there and everywhere in her car … it never ends.

I told her I was going to Lourdes later this month and asked if she’d been. She said “Oh, that’s not really for me, I’m not very religious”. I laughed, I said she was the most religious person I’ve ever known - her whole life was about service to others. She just modestly shrugged that off as something anyone would do.

So basically, you’ll never see her on this forum, but she is an example for me and anyone who wants to know what a “good Catholic” looks like.