Rand Paul: Without change, GOP will "not win again in my lifetime"

[seekerz]

Very few people get this, and apparently don’t want too. By early 1983 is was easy to see that wages were stagnating and were going to continue to do so, down sizing was becoming rather popular as a way of getting rid of people ready to retire and costs were certainly on the rise. The middle class was starting to disappear and the small farmer was systematically being eliminated.

I had the good fortune of being at a city wide meeting that was intended to address the ruin of the small farmer as well as cuts to health care for the disabled shortly after the arrival of now Cardinal Stafford to Denver. There we learned that deliberate efforts where put forth to ruin small farmers and eliminate them in favor of corporate farms. We also learned that cuts to care for the mentally ill would be so significant that at least 1/3 would land up on the street. Some of those who fell under these cuts were actually developmentally disabled adults who could not care for themselves or ever work.

That is the stuff that started to go on under Reagan’s administration. Just if anyone wanted to know.

I would be reassured if it the movement seemed to be just back to Reaganomics, but when political commentators stumble over whether they support the concept of a minimum wage at all, that’s a hint we are at risk of going back whole eras.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Very few people get this, and apparently don’t want too. By early 1983 is was easy to see that wages were stagnating and were going to continue to do so, down sizing was becoming rather popular as a way of getting rid of people ready to retire and costs were certainly on the rise. The middle class was starting to disappear and the small farmer was systematically being eliminated.

I had the good fortune of being at a city wide meeting that was intended to address the ruin of the small farmer as well as cuts to health care for the disabled shortly after the arrival of now Cardinal Stafford to Denver. There we learned that deliberate efforts where put forth to ruin small farmers and eliminate them in favor of corporate farms. We also learned that cuts to care for the mentally ill would be so significant that at least 1/3 would land up on the street. Some of those who fell under these cuts were actually developmentally disabled adults who could not care for themselves or ever work.

That is the stuff that started to go on under Reagan’s administration. Just if anyone wanted to know.

Not entirely correct. Part of the middle class has gained and part has lost over the last few decades. It depends a lot on what part of the middle class one was/is in. The higher the skill level, the more likely one gained. The lower the skill level, the more likely one lost.

Undoubtedly small farming is on the wane in some places, largely due to economies of scale. In some, it has gained significantly in the last few years. It depends on where you are and what kind of farming one is doing. In North Missouri, farming is row-crop farming, and farms get larger and larger. In my part of the country (southern Missouri) small farming has proliferated greatly, due to these factors:

1. Proliferation of farmer-owned poultry and hog operations contracted to integrators.
2. Proliferation of rotational cattle grazing systems (this is VERY location dependent)
3. Proliferation of small gardening operations, chiefly owned and operated by recent immigrants. Their products are sold in farmers’ markets or on location, and they do remarkably well at it.
4. Ready availability of jobs to provide supplemental income, if needed.

In many cases, one or more of the above are combined, so that, for instance, an owner of a poultry operation might use the resulting manure in market gardening or pasture fertilization. One member of the family might also have a job “in town”.

None of that happened because of Reagan or in spite of Reagan.

I also remember the utter devastation that took place in farming up north when the Carter inflation “disinflated”. But I can’t say that was Carter’s fault. Probably more that of the Fed.

 

[Ridgerunner]

I would be reassured if it the movement seemed to be just back to Reaganomics, but when political commentators stumble over whether they support the concept of a minimum wage at all, that’s a hint we are at risk of going back whole eras.

No it isn’t. We’re in a period of very high unemployment and underemployment. When government tries to “fight the (economic) tide” it often makes things worse. Remember the NRO? People went to jail for trying to lower their prices so they could keep going. Wage controls made unemployment worse. None of it worked, and it just made the Depression worse.

It’s not unreasonable to counsel caution in times like this.

 

[seekerz]

No it isn’t. We’re in a period of very high unemployment and underemployment. When government tries to “fight the (economic) tide” it often makes things worse. Remember the NRO? People went to jail for trying to lower their prices so they could keep going. Wage controls made unemployment worse. None of it worked, and it just made the Depression worse.

It’s not unreasonable to counsel caution in times like this.

I hope I never live in a day when there is no more minimum wage. That’s just too close to the historical era when people worked for room and board…and perhaps, a sliver of soap.

 

[RC_Sojourner]

Following, unwittingly no doubt, the Party of Death’s game plan. But you weren’t alone. Apparently this practice guaranteed Obama’s election, and was much encouraged by Dem operatives. It will put Hillary Clinton (worse than Obama) into the White House in 2016 unless those who oppose evil actually oppose it instead of sitting on the sidelines because the opposing candidate is not perfect in their eyes.

It was not my purpose in saying the above to offend you, but hopefully to draw your attention to the fact that you’re following the Dem game plan. Romney was not my first choice or my second, either. But I was not about to give Obama my tacit support by sitting it out.

That’s just an attack. The Republican Party did not represent me, so I had to find a party that did represent me. I would like to see our nation have more than 2 parties, so my vote for a 3rd party was a vote for a 3rd party, it was not a vote for the Democrats.

Should I have chosen the “lesser evil” of the Republicans? Need I remind you, that the Catholic Church does not countenance “the ends justify the means”. NO, I could not in good conscience perform a little evil (voting Republican) to attain a greater good.

Neither Obama or Romney were Christians. I couldn’t vote for a non-Christian.

 

[RC_Sojourner]

Never despair, my friend.

There’s nothing wrong to despair in politics. Its only a sin to despair in your Catholic faith.

That’s what I do. I have no hope in politics remaining. Our nation has no political solution. That’s something many Catholics have lived through. As I’ve mentioned in this thread, look at England under Cromwell, or France during the Revolution of 1789, or Atheist Mexico in the 1920s, the Soviet Union, etc, etc.

Sometimes there is no ability to get a redress of grievances through the political system. Sometimes, the game is stacked in the regime’s favor.

The Catholic Church holds all the answers for our nation, and for every nation. Find me a political party which holds even half of those answers. Find me a politician who believes in even half of those answers, and I will vote for them.

[Yes, I voted for Santorum in the primary, I’d say he holds at least half of those answers ]

 

[Ridgerunner]

That’s just an attack. The Republican Party did not represent me, so I had to find a party that did represent me. I would like to see our nation have more than 2 parties, so my vote for a 3rd party was a vote for a 3rd party, it was not a vote for the Democrats.

Should I have chosen the “lesser evil” of the Republicans? Need I remind you, that the Catholic Church does not countenance “the ends justify the means”. NO, I could not in good conscience perform a little evil (voting Republican) to attain a greater good.

Neither Obama or Romney were Christians. I couldn’t vote for a non-Christian.

It wasn’t meant as an attack on you personally, but on the extremely unwise practice of aiding dyed-in-the-wool, known, abortionists by failing to oppose them in a way that could be effective. One really does need to assess whether what (for whatever reason) a person he has JUDGED a “little evil” is sufficient reason to aid the abortion industry.

 

[Ridgerunner]

There’s nothing wrong to despair in politics. Its only a sin to despair in your Catholic faith.

That’s what I do. I have no hope in politics remaining. Our nation has no political solution. That’s something many Catholics have lived through. As I’ve mentioned in this thread, look at England under Cromwell, or France during the Revolution of 1789, or Atheist Mexico in the 1920s, the Soviet Union, etc, etc.

Sometimes there is no ability to get a redress of grievances through the political system. Sometimes, the game is stacked in the regime’s favor.

The Catholic Church holds all the answers for our nation, and for every nation. Find me a political party which holds even half of those answers. Find me a politician who believes in even half of those answers, and I will vote for them.

[Yes, I voted for Santorum in the primary, I’d say he holds at least half of those answers ]

Despair is despair, regardless of the context. I didn’t say it’s immoral to despair about the direction of thenation or to despair over being able to buy a new car this year. I only intended to encourage hope where there is hope. And I think it’s unwise as well, because the game might look bleak, but it’s not over.

 

[RC_Sojourner]

It wasn’t meant as an attack on you personally, but on the extremely unwise practice of aiding dyed-in-the-wool, known, abortionists by failing to oppose them in a way that could be effective. One really does need to assess whether what (for whatever reason) a person he has JUDGED a “little evil” is sufficient reason to aid the abortion industry.

Efficacy. Efficiency.

Well, the abortion industry is dying, and I don’t believe it would die any faster under a Romney administration. Sorry, but I don’t think it would.

I pray outside of abortion clinics, so yeah, I take it as a personal attack when you say that I “aid the abortion industry”. No I don’t, and my vote didn’t either.

I don’t vote based off of efficacy or efficiency. Mitt Romney is a Mormon. Mormons are fine with abortion in cases of rape and incest, mother’s health, etc. ETC! Ok?

That’s a vote for evil, I couldn’t vote for that. Couldn’t do it.

Ridgerunner:

Despair is despair, regardless of the context. I didn’t say it’s immoral to despair about the direction of the nation or to despair over being able to buy a new car this year. I only intended to encourage hope where there is hope. And I think it’s unwise as well, because the game might look bleak, but it’s not over.

Well, when I hear the word “despair”, my mind immediately goes to the examination of conscience. Thankfully, that is how my mind works now. God is good.

Anyways, I did offer you a chance in my post… if the game is not over, then show me a political party that agrees with even half of what the Catholic Church says. Show me a politician (like Rick Santorum), who agrees with even half of what the Catholic Church says, and I might consider voting for them.

In liu of that… doomsday prepping looks like the only move in this “game” that will allow my Catholic faith to be sustained, and to live on. The American Church needs to start preparing to function like the Catholic Church does in China, IMO. Persecution is coming.

 

[Cricket2]

A third party may be just what we need, as another suggested. I have voted in the past for the candidate from a third party because there was no way in “God’s green earth” I would vote for either the democrat or republican. I knew they couldn’t win but I saw no use in attaching my name to the other two evils.

I want a candidate that will:

Respect people’s right to religious freedom, but not try to create a theocracy.

Someone who does not believe we should be shipping all our jobs over-seas and who is for alternative sources of energy. The “fossil fuel” industry is ancient and alternatives have been possible for decades. We need to get there already.

Health care should not result in people losing every single thing they have, so yes I am for a national health care plan, that all contribute too and benefit from. Illness and injury should be something such a candidate feels is not the individuals fault and they should not be opposed to people being on disability when warranted.

There should be a progressive tax plan like that of the 1950’s and a return of the middle class as well as small farmers in favor of the huge corporate farms. (Believe me corporate farms are going to be the source of the worst famine this planet has ever known, not the answer to preventing famine.)

Privatization and the selling off of this country to the lowest bidder should be something the “third party” is against and they would certainly gain my support.

This hypothetical party certainly needs to be more for the people and less for big business. Otherwise, all we will have is a new party with same problems and a different name for a platform.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Efficacy. Efficiency.

Well, the abortion industry is dying, and I don’t believe it would die any faster under a Romney administration. Sorry, but I don’t think it would.

I pray outside of abortion clinics, so yeah, I take it as a personal attack when you say that I “aid the abortion industry”. No I don’t, and my vote didn’t either.

I don’t vote based off of efficacy or efficiency. Mitt Romney is a Mormon. Mormons are fine with abortion in cases of rape and incest, mother’s health, etc. ETC! Ok?

That’s a vote for evil, I couldn’t vote for that. Couldn’t do it.

Well, when I hear the word “despair”, my mind immediately goes to the examination of conscience. Thankfully, that is how my mind works now. God is good.

Anyways, I did offer you a chance in my post… if the game is not over, then show me a political party that agrees with even half of what the Catholic Church says. Show me a politician (like Rick Santorum), who agrees with even half of what the Catholic Church says, and I might consider voting for them.

In liu of that… doomsday prepping looks like the only move in this “game” that will allow my Catholic faith to be sustained, and to live on. The American Church needs to start preparing to function like the Catholic Church does in China, IMO. Persecution is coming.

Doomsday prepping. Goodness.

Half of what the Catholic Church says? What “half” do you want to explore? The Ten Commandments? The Catechism? The Eucharist? Just what?

The reality is that even Protestants, even Mormons, believe in MORE than half of what the Church teaches…and precisely because the Church formed most of western civilization. Even the Uniform Commercial Code reflects it.

But you want to doomsday prep so you’ll survive when everybody else dies? There was a time when I used to challenge Mormons about that belief. If Romney is a faithful Mormon, you and he hold at least that much in common.

 

[meltzerboy]

A third party may be just what we need, as another suggested. I have voted in the past for the candidate from a third party because there was no way in “God’s green earth” I would vote for either the democrat or republican. I knew they couldn’t win but I saw no use in attaching my name to the other two evils.

I want a candidate that will:

Respect people’s right to religious freedom, but not try to create a theocracy.

Someone who does not believe we should be shipping all our jobs over-seas and who is for alternative sources of energy. The “fossil fuel” industry is ancient and alternatives have been possible for decades. We need to get there already.

Health care should not result in people losing every single thing they have, so yes I am for a national health care plan, that all contribute too and benefit from. Illness and injury should be something such a candidate feels is not the individuals fault and they should not be opposed to people being on disability when warranted.

There should be a progressive tax plan like that of the 1950’s and a return of the middle class as well as small farmers in favor of the huge corporate farms. (Believe me corporate farms are going to be the source of the worst famine this planet has ever known, not the answer to preventing famine.)

Privatization and the selling off of this country to the lowest bidder should be something the “third party” is against and they would certainly gain my support.

This hypothetical party certainly needs to be more for the people and less for big business. Otherwise, all we will have is a new party with same problems and a different name for a platform.

I agree with you on all points. However, this sounds to me like the Utopian Party (i.e. it ain’t gonna happen) and, I imagine, to others it sounds like the Party from H—.

 

[Cricket2]

I agree with you on all points. However, this sounds to me like the Utopian Party (i.e. it ain’t gonna happen) and, I imagine, to others it sounds like the Party from H—.

True on both points, unfortunately.

 

[phil19034]

The key for the Republican Party is figuring out how to win the Hispanic vote and do better with the urban voters.

The Republican Party is seen as racist by minorities and this needs to be corrected. Also, the Republicans (nationally) need to be seen as pro-cities. Cities need more money for mass transit, etc. but many rural republicans shoot down funding for transit (we see this in Pennsylvania all the time).

If the GOP can win more Hispanic and urban voters WITHOUT compromising on moral issues, then the GOP can win again.

God Bless

 

[RC_Sojourner]

Doomsday prepping. Goodness.

Half of what the Catholic Church says? What “half” do you want to explore? The Ten Commandments? The Catechism? The Eucharist? Just what?

The reality is that even Protestants, even Mormons, believe in MORE than half of what the Church teaches…and precisely because the Church formed most of western civilization. Even the Uniform Commercial Code reflects it.

But you want to doomsday prep so you’ll survive when everybody else dies? There was a time when I used to challenge Mormons about that belief. If Romney is a faithful Mormon, you and he hold at least that much in common.

Yes, true, the Mormons are into prepping. But, I doubt Mitt is. Mitt Romney isn’t even a “good Mormon”, neither is Harry Reid. Just because Mormons are into prepping because of their faith, doesn’t mean its not a good idea, and a logical response to the way things are going in this country. Anyways, I don’t want to divert the thread too much… Here’s a meme I found from back in the campaign days:

http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/500x/46340768.jpg

Wow… that could not have been harder. Catholic Answers really needs to be able to upload pictures from your desktop. I had to remake that entire thing, just so it would be on the internet… Ugh.

And no, I don’t believe in the “doomsday” part of “doomsday preppers”. Like I said, prep for persecution. Look how the Church lives in China, Lebanon, Egypt, etc. Its all very practical stuff I’m saying. Look at Mexcio less than 100 years ago in the 1920s. The Church needs to be prepared for violent persecution, that’s all I’m saying.

I already told you. The ruler with which I will measure is Rick Santorum. Ok? Find me a Rick Santorum to vote for. Find me an Allen West. Find me a Patrick James Buchanan, Knight of Malta, ok? Hmm… Allen West is not a Knight, but I know Rick Santorum is, as well.
“More than half” is just an expression.

Also, Mormons aren’t Christians, the Vatican says so. So, are you sure about that? That they believe in more than half of what the Catholic Church teaches?

Here: from the mouth of Holy Mother Church, in her INFINITE wisdom, she doth proclaim:
vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20010605_battesimo_mormoni_en.html

:bowdown2: I bow before your infinite wisdom, oh Holy Mother Church. Thine proclamations on faith and morals are infallible. :bowdown2:

 

[Midwest88]

I agree with you on all points. However, this sounds to me like the Utopian Party (i.e. it ain’t gonna happen) and, I imagine, to others it sounds like the Party from H—.

More like Common Sense/Stable Party.

 

[Midwest88]

The key for the Republican Party is figuring out how to win the Hispanic vote and do better with the urban voters.

The Republican Party is seen as racist by minorities and this needs to be corrected. Also, the Republicans (nationally) need to be seen as pro-cities. Cities need more money for mass transit, etc. but many rural republicans shoot down funding for transit (we see this in Pennsylvania all the time).

If the GOP can win more Hispanic and urban voters WITHOUT compromising on moral issues, then the GOP can win again.

God Bless

This is true. The GOP has such a negative stigma attached to it that people who may be reasonable people, and somewhat smart, fall for whatever tropes that come out of the DNC’s mouth and their affiliates.

War on Women
Haters of Gays
Incompassionate to Illegal Aliens
Haters of the Poor
Party of the Backwards

You get the idea.

 

[Cider]

LOL his argument is to go after druggies and the incarcerated. really?

 

[ishii]

The key for the Republican Party is figuring out how to win the Hispanic vote and do better with the urban voters.

The Republican Party is seen as racist by minorities and this needs to be corrected. Also, the Republicans (nationally) need to be seen as pro-cities. Cities need more money for mass transit, etc. but many rural republicans shoot down funding for transit (we see this in Pennsylvania all the time).

If the GOP can win more Hispanic and urban voters WITHOUT compromising on moral issues, then the GOP can win again.

God Bless

I think you make a good point. The problem is any message by the GOP will be filtered through the media. But the GOP can help themselves if they nominate a more diverse ticket - I think Rubio might be able to reach out to the Hispanics. Or Susanna Martinez of Arizona. I don’t believe this is pandering. There is nothing wrong with a ticket that reflects the ethnic diversity of our country. If more Hispanics would listen to a Rubio or Martinez than a Walker or a Romney, then why not? The goal is to win - not lose by insisting with an ideological purity at all costs.

Ishii

 

[Personanongrata]

Rand Paul – Making it easier for HRC 2016, one step at a time!!