Rand Paul: Without change, GOP will "not win again in my lifetime"

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Ridgerunner said:
Third party is supporting abortion, pure and simple. It’s a way to support abortion without admitting that one did.
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That’s not how Thomas Aquinas would see it. And, if you think you’re really right, do you think I should ask a priest if I’m guilty of the sin of supporting abortion? Tell me if you think I should ask a priest, just tell me, and I will.

Give me a break, you’re in the wrong. Voting for Virgil Goode was not supporting abortion.

Well… this is from the same person who called the Book of Mormon a Christian book. I’d go to confession over that if I were you. People died over what was canonized as Scripture, and here you are, a self defined Catholic calling the Book of Mormon a Christian book. I’ll quote the Scripture again:
[BIBLEDRB]Rev. 22:19[/BIBLEDRB]

That’s what the Book of Mormon is, a desecration. Its a violation of God’s Word.

Oh, its just a “paraphrase of the Bible” is it? Is that all it is?
Paraphrasing the Bible is sin.

Paraphrasing the Bible is sin. You’d do well to remember that. The whole Book of Mormon is one big sin, the whole thing is evil.
 
RC_Sojourner said:
That’s not how Thomas Aquinas would see it. And, if you think you’re really right, do you think I should ask a priest if I’m guilty of the sin of supporting abortion? Tell me if you think I should ask a priest, just tell me, and I will.

Give me a break, you’re in the wrong. Voting for Virgil Goode was not supporting abortion.

Well… this is from the same person who called the Book of Mormon a Christian book. I’d go to confession over that if I were you. People died over what was canonized as Scripture, and here you are, a self defined Catholic calling the Book of Mormon a Christian book. I’ll quote the Scripture again:
[BIBLEDRB]Rev. 22:19[/BIBLEDRB]

That’s what the Book of Mormon is, a desecration. Its a violation of God’s Word.

Oh, its just a “paraphrase of the Bible” is it? Is that all it is?
Paraphrasing the Bible is sin.

Paraphrasing the Bible is sin. You’d do well to remember that. The whole Book of Mormon is one big sin, the whole thing is evil.
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If paraphrasing the bible is a sin, then a lot of people do it, including priests, because few remember the exact words (of one of the various translations) other than Evangelicals whose bible quotes, even if word-for-word faithful to the text from which they got it, are likely to be paraphrases of the Douay-Rheims or some other translation.

Actually, Mormons don’t “paraphrase the bible” any more than others do. Mormons actually believe in the bible. My comment was that much of the Book of Mormon is simply a paraphrase of what’s in the bible anyway. And no, I have no use whatever for the Book of Mormon, for that reason and for other reasons.

And I believe I compared it to Santeria, which, like Mormonism, has a “sort of” Christian base, but is actually a religion all its own. But then, all of protestantism is derivative of Catholicism as well.

But regardless, criticizing me for something I never said, does not resolve the issue. I stand by what I said. Failing to effectively oppose evil when one can is to support the evil. Consult whomever you wish to consult. It will not change my mind. But my mind is not the important mind here. The important mind is the Mind of God. Explain yourself to Him, as you will surely be called upon some day to do.

You neglected to share the citation from St. Thomas Aquinas upon which you base whatever it is you were trying to say. Possibly you could share it so others can know what you’re talking about.
 
RC_Sojourner said:
That’s not how Thomas Aquinas would see it. And, if you think you’re really right, do you think I should ask a priest if I’m guilty of the sin of supporting abortion? Tell me if you think I should ask a priest, just tell me, and I will.

Give me a break, you’re in the wrong. Voting for Virgil Goode was not supporting abortion.

Well… this is from the same person who called the Book of Mormon a Christian book. I’d go to confession over that if I were you. People died over what was canonized as Scripture, and here you are, a self defined Catholic calling the Book of Mormon a Christian book. I’ll quote the Scripture again:
[BIBLEDRB]Rev. 22:19[/BIBLEDRB]

That’s what the Book of Mormon is, a desecration. Its a violation of God’s Word.

Oh, its just a “paraphrase of the Bible” is it? Is that all it is?
Paraphrasing the Bible is sin.

Paraphrasing the Bible is sin. You’d do well to remember that. The whole Book of Mormon is one big sin, the whole thing is evil.
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In my book, Goode is a really decent fellow. However, the fact is that he helped a radical Democrat win by siphoning the votes of great Americans who are not necessarily politically attuned. The desire for the perfect can become the enemy of the good, and in that case, it did. Another example is MIke Huckabee, a man who has NO support among anyone except evangelicals (I am one.) Even assuming that Huck is a completely honest broker without any socialist tendencies, his entry into the '16 Presidential race may well prevent a Constitutionalist from winning the nomination.
The last thing I want to see is another Bush, Jeb, a guy who seems to sense little of the peril that America is experiencing. :rolleyes: Rob
 
Ridgerunner said:
If paraphrasing the bible is a sin, then a lot of people do it, including priests, because few remember the exact words (of one of the various translations) other than Evangelicals whose bible quotes, even if word-for-word faithful to the text from which they got it, are likely to be paraphrases of the Douay-Rheims or some other translation.

Actually, Mormons don’t “paraphrase the bible” any more than others do. Mormons actually believe in the bible. My comment was that much of the Book of Mormon is simply a paraphrase of what’s in the bible anyway. And no, I have no use whatever for the Book of Mormon, for that reason and for other reasons.

And I believe I compared it to Santeria, which, like Mormonism, has a “sort of” Christian base, but is actually a religion all its own. But then, all of protestantism is derivative of Catholicism as well.

But regardless, criticizing me for something I never said, does not resolve the issue. I stand by what I said. Failing to effectively oppose evil when one can is to support the evil. Consult whomever you wish to consult. It will not change my mind. But my mind is not the important mind here. The important mind is the Mind of God. Explain yourself to Him, as you will surely be called upon some day to do.

You neglected to share the citation from St. Thomas Aquinas upon which you base whatever it is you were trying to say. Possibly you could share it so others can know what you’re talking about.
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How can one be so sure that a third-party candidate (as in the case of Virgil Goode) takes away votes from a GOP candidate any more than from a Democrat candidate? What statistical analysis tells us this with high probability?
 
RACJ said:
In my book, Goode is a really decent fellow. However, the fact is that he helped a radical Democrat win by siphoning the votes of great Americans who are not necessarily politically attuned. The desire for the perfect can become the enemy of the good, and in that case, it did. Another example is MIke Huckabee, a man who has NO support among anyone except evangelicals (I am one.) Even assuming that Huck is a completely honest broker without any socialist tendencies, his entry into the '16 Presidential race may well prevent a Constitutionalist from winning the nomination.
The last thing I want to see is another Bush, Jeb, a guy who seems to sense little of the peril that America is experiencing. :rolleyes: Rob
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The GOP can do a whole lot worse than Jeb Bush, in my view.
 
meltzerboy said:
How can one be so sure that a third-party candidate (as in the case of Virgil Goode) takes away votes from a GOP candidate any more than from a Democrat candidate? What statistical analysis tells us this with high probability?
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Here are the numbers:

Obama / Biden Democratic 50+DC 100% 65,915,796
Romney / Ryan Republican 50+DC 100% 60,933,500
Johnson / Gray Libertarian 48+ DC 95.1% 1,275,951
Stein / Honkala Green 36 + DC 83.1% 469,628
Goode / Clymer Constitution 26 49.9% 122,388
Anderson / Rodriguez Justice 15 28.1% 43,018
Lindsay / Osorio Socialism & Liberation 13 28.6% 7,791

Even assuming Romney got 100% of all the 3rd party votes (including the Green Party, the Justice Party, and the Socialist Party, he’d still be more than 3 million votes behind Obama. He lost by 5 million, and only 2 million votes were cast for all 3rd parties combined. And a lot of those libertarians want the states to decriminalize marijuana, etc.

Again though, you can avoid the topic of this thread, but its true. We will have Hillary for 8 years, and by then, its all over. By then we’ll have caught up to socialist Europe, and the GOP will be no more conservative than the big-government, socialist-lite, pro-gay marriage Conservative party of the U.K.

What I’m advocating, and Mike Huckabee himself has threatened this, is that we form truly principled party forms, so we’ll at least have our version of UKIP.
 
Please, please: 🙂

Can’t we just agree to disagree? Everyone here, regardless of whether they voted Mitt Romney, Gary Johnson, Virgil Goode, Joe Schriner, Ron Paul, Rand Paul, Rick Santorum, or anybody else, is voting their informed conscience. That’s all the Church asks us to do. There’s no need to come to blows over this.
 
RC_Sojourner said:
Here are the numbers:

Obama / Biden Democratic 50+DC 100% 65,915,796
Romney / Ryan Republican 50+DC 100% 60,933,500
Johnson / Gray Libertarian 48+ DC 95.1% 1,275,951
Stein / Honkala Green 36 + DC 83.1% 469,628
Goode / Clymer Constitution 26 49.9% 122,388
Anderson / Rodriguez Justice 15 28.1% 43,018
Lindsay / Osorio Socialism & Liberation 13 28.6% 7,791

Even assuming Romney got 100% of all the 3rd party votes (including the Green Party, the Justice Party, and the Socialist Party, he’d still be more than 3 million votes behind Obama. He lost by 5 million, and only 2 million votes were cast for all 3rd parties combined. And a lot of those libertarians want the states to decriminalize marijuana, etc.

Again though, you can avoid the topic of this thread, but its true. We will have Hillary for 8 years, and by then, its all over. By then we’ll have caught up to socialist Europe, and the GOP will be no more conservative than the big-government, socialist-lite, pro-gay marriage Conservative party of the U.K.

What I’m advocating, and Mike Huckabee himself has threatened this, is that we form truly principled party forms, so we’ll at least have our version of UKIP.
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Nice stats, but they sdon’t address the effect 3rd party candidates can have on the regular party candidates. Don’t look at the national totals, look at the states. For example, take a state in which the election was really, really, close. What if half of Ralph Nader’s votes had gone to Al Gore in Florida in 2000? My guess is it would have won him the election. The same could be true for upcoming elections in which it is decided by a few swing states and they are very close. Again, I can see you’re not accepting the reality that a candidate who says, “God bless Planned Parenthood” is way worse than a candidate who says abortion is wrong but believes there are exceptions in the case of rape or the life of the mother. Considering that what matters is Roe V Wade, it seems to me that the nuances of Romney’s position is less important than his committment to nominate constructionist justices - especially in light of Obama’s committment to keep abortion legal.

For those of us who do NOT think Hillary’s victory is inevitable, we cannot vote for a candidate that while ideologically pure, offers no chance to win. In other words, we haven’t given up yet. Neither should you.

Ishii
 
meltzerboy said:
The GOP can do a whole lot worse than Jeb Bush, in my view.
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I agree that Jeb Bush is a good man and would probably make a good president in a different era. However, I think we need a president who understands what’s at stake. Plus, I don’t think the country is ready for a 3rd president Bush in 24 years.

Ishii
 
ishii said:
For those of us who do NOT think Hillary’s victory is inevitable, we cannot vote for a candidate that while ideologically pure, offers no chance to win. In other words, we haven’t given up yet. Neither should you.
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I can understand deciding to vote for whatever warm body the Republicans decide to nominate. Just don’t be surprised when all the Republicans give you is a warm body who is slightly better than Hillary.
 
ssancho said:
Please, please: 🙂

Can’t we just agree to disagree? Everyone here, regardless of whether they voted Mitt Romney, Gary Johnson, Virgil Goode, Joe Schriner, Ron Paul, Rand Paul, Rick Santorum, or anybody else, is voting their informed conscience. That’s all the Church asks us to do. There’s no need to come to blows over this.
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Obviously we have to. But since this is a world news forum and we often discuss politics here, the discussion is appropriate. Furthermore, since I don’t want to see another pro-abortion Democrat win the White House, I am particularly disappointed and frustrated when otherwise good people talk about throwing away their votes by voting for a 3rd party candidate with no chance of winning.

Ishii
 
ishii said:
I agree that Jeb Bush is a good man and would probably make a good president in a different era. However, I think we need a president who understands what’s at stake. Plus, I don’t think the country is ready for a 3rd president Bush in 24 years.

Ishii
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Yes, the name Bush scares me - I think that could go awry pretty quickly, especially up against Hillary, first serious woman candidate, blah, blah, blah. Take a page from the Democrats - think flashy, young, good TV. Rubio (Hispanic); Jindal, etc., I don’t know, someone will pop up. Do we all think Christie is done? I am not sure. He may hold on and I think people will forgive/forget the traffic thing - compared to Jeremiah Wright, pretty soft stuff. Wouldn’t call him young or flashy but he can win in Democratic strongholds, doesn’t scare off women and independents, who we desperately need. I agree any Republican White House will have a beneficial effect, especially in terms of Supreme Court and other judicial nominations, more actively protecting America’s cultural heritage and being more sympathetic to issues like religious freedom, better reputation abroad, reigning in Obamacare. We gotta come together on this one, guys, we can start fighting again the day after we win the White House. 🙂
 
FollowChrist34 said:
Yes, the name Bush scares me - I think that could go awry pretty quickly, especially up against Hillary, first serious woman candidate, blah, blah, blah. Take a page from the Democrats - think flashy, young, good TV. Rubio (Hispanic); Jindal, etc., I don’t know, someone will pop up. Do we all think Christie is done? I am not sure. He may hold on and I think people will forgive/forget the traffic thing - compared to Jeremiah Wright, pretty soft stuff. Wouldn’t call him young or flashy but he can win in Democratic strongholds, doesn’t scare off women and independents, who we desperately need. I agree any Republican White House will have a beneficial effect, especially in terms of Supreme Court and other judicial nominations, more actively protecting America’s cultural heritage and being more sympathetic to issues like religious freedom, better reputation abroad, reigning in Obamacare. We gotta come together on this one, guys, we can start fighting again the day after we win the White House. 🙂
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👍
 
meltzerboy said:
The GOP can do a whole lot worse than Jeb Bush, in my view.
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Jeb would proceed with America’s decline, albeit at a slower pace. Not to worry, however. Ted Cruz will be the '16 GOP nominee. The Constitutional patriots will overwhelm the country clubbers who stand for nothing this time. 😉 Rob
 
RPRPsych said:
That is, of course, possible. But even a Mormon is better than following Jeremiah Wright. 😛
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👍 And, as Catholics, we vote based on the moral issues and not based on religious labels. Morally, Romney was by far the better candidate between him and Planned Parenthood’s spokesman.

 
RACJ said:
Jeb would proceed with America’s decline, albeit at a slower pace. Not to worry, however. Ted Cruz will be the '16 GOP nominee. The Constitutional patriots will overwhelm the country clubbers who stand for nothing this time. 😉 Rob
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If Ted Cruz is the GOP candidate in 2016, the Republicans will surely lose. Cruz has already been successfully portrayed by the Democrats, and even by more mainstream Republicans, as a scary extremist.

What is so bad about Jeb Bush? He is knowledgeable about education and immigration, among other things. He is an intelligent ADULT who is focused on issues rather than personalities, and he can capture votes from both Independents and Democrats.
 
meltzerboy said:
If Ted Cruz is the GOP candidate in 2016, the Republicans will surely lose. Cruz has already been successfully portrayed by the Democrats, and even by more mainstream Republicans, as a scary extremist.

What is so bad about Jeb Bush? He is knowledgeable about education and immigration, among other things. He is an intelligent ADULT who is focused on issues rather than personalities, and he can capture votes from both Independents and Democrats.
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The Bush named is cursed.
 
FollowChrist34 said:
I agree any Republican White House will have a beneficial effect, especially in terms of Supreme Court and other judicial nominations, more actively protecting America’s cultural heritage and being more sympathetic to issues like religious freedom, better reputation abroad, reigning in Obamacare. We gotta come together on this one, guys, we can start fighting again the day after we win the White House. 🙂
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👍

One other thing; a Republican president, even one that isn’t very pro-life personally, is far less likely to use the power of the government to inconvenience pro-lifers. I can remember hearing that the old Clinton Administration used various government agencies like the IRS to harass pro-life groups and activists.
 
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