RANT!!!

[sneakers]

In order for another parish member to describe our family they called us the “Amish” people. This happened when we hired a new music minister and our daughter signed up for choir and to cantor. The poor man thought we drove buggies and parked our horse in the parking lot.

We go to the TLM at St Vincents when we can and our NO the rest of the time.

I’ve been to that mass once. I want to go again, but the sway bar on my car needs replaced and can’t afford to get it fixed until after the first of the year. I’m afraid to take it too far. Anyway, I hope they keep that mass going until I can get there again! I’d like to be a regular attendee if I can!

Kathy

 

[the_phoenix]

Prayer for Dempsey1919 and us all … including myself and the whole Church … in response to this rant, which many of us can relate to.

From today’s Liturgy of the Hours:

Mid-morning reading (Terce) (Colossians 1:12-13)
We thank the Father who has made it possible for us to share in the saints’ inheritance of light. He has taken us out of the power of darkness and created a place for us in the kingdom of the Son that he loves.

… and …

Prayers and Intercessions

Christ gives eternal salvation to those who come to God through him: he lives and intercedes for us for ever. Filled with this belief we give him praise and honour and humbly beg him:

• Lord, remember your people.
  As the sun is setting we call on you, the Sun of righteousness that never sets:
  may all mankind be bathed in your light for ever.
  Uphold the Covenant that you sealed with your holy blood:
  sanctify your Church and make her pure.
  Remember, Lord, your people:
  your people, in whom you dwell.
  Guide travellers on straight and peaceful paths:
  may they arrive safely where they are going.
  Accept, Lord, the souls of the deceased:
  give them forgiveness and everlasting glory.

Our Father, who art in Heaven,
hallowed be thy name.
Thy kingdom come,
thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread,
and forgive us our trespasses
as we forgive those that trespass against us,
and lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from evil.
Amen.

---

May the Lord bless us and keep us from all harm; and may he lead us to eternal life.

 

[jj2011]

I get so sick of the way that faithful Catholics are viewed by other members of the Church.

Everytime I mention that I attend the Tridentine Mass I get this strange look as if I am some kind of wierdo. It’s even worse when I say that I am against contraception. It’s really anoying to be thought of as some kind of extremist because I uphold Church doctrine.

What is wrong with some people? They seem to have a total aversion towards anything that is traditional. They think that everyone who attends the Tridentine Mass is some kind of schismatic radical. That isn’t correct nor is it fair.

They even seem opposed to the Latin language. When I ask for Latin Missals or prayer books all I get is a curt “we don’t have any.” Latin seems to have a stigma attached to it these days. Moreover, knowledge of the language has sunk to an all time low and no one seems to care. This is our history - it is worth saving.

Why is this? All I want to do is be a faithful Catholic. I like the traditional liturgy and everything that goes with it. I like the latin language and the unity that it creates. I like traditional Churches with stained glass windows and statues. What’s the big deal?! I’m not against Vatican II or the New Mass but everyone automatically assumes that I am. I really annoys me!

The disaster in the Church happened, IMHO, because the mass was not valued enough. We should learn that lesson and offer up our sufferings for the Church, for priests and bishops, and for vocations. That includes sufferings caused by bad priests and bad Catholics-- especially that kind. Let this crisis in the Church sanctify us and in a certain sense make us saints.

 

[Pax_et_Caritas]

I get so sick of the way that faithful Catholics are viewed by other members of the Church.

Everytime I mention that I attend the Tridentine Mass I get this strange look as if I am some kind of wierdo. It’s even worse when I say that I am against contraception. It’s really anoying to be thought of as some kind of extremist because I uphold Church doctrine. …Why is this? All I want to do is be a faithful Catholic. I like the traditional liturgy and everything that goes with it. … I really annoys me!

What should your response to this be? You should rejoice and be glad…

“Blessed are ye when they shall reviled you, and persecute you, and speak all that is evil against you, untruly, for my sake: Be glad and rejoice, for your reward is very great in heaven. For so they persecuted the prophets who were before you.” (Mt 5:11-12)

 

[rwoehmke]

I think I am understanding a little of where you are coming from. I have a son who lives just a ways outside of London. My wife and I sent him to a Catholic University hoping that it would solidify what we taught him. Well he has been out and about now on his own for maybe half a dozen years and gets upset when I remind him that he is Catholic and it would be nice if he at least attended Mass on a Sunday morning. Its like anyone who has a speck of religion is somehow soft in the head. Even in this country where more people as a percentage adhere to the teachings there is no shortage of scoffers.

 

[pnewton]

Most faithful traditionalists will know what I mean. More often than not, we are treated like lepers because we favour the Mass of the Ancient Roman rite. Lay people, priests and even some bishops unfairly regard us as radicals and wierdos. It’s just not fair.

It is not unfair, but it happens a lot and it happens both ways. So far non-traditional Catholics have been called lazy and shopping-cart Catholics. Yet I have to realize that most traditionalist Catholic types do not engage in that type of judegmentalism.

 

[snowfly]

I get so sick of the way that faithful Catholics are viewed by other members of the Church.

Everytime I mention that I attend the Tridentine Mass I get this strange look as if I am some kind of wierdo. It’s even worse when I say that I am against contraception. It’s really anoying to be thought of as some kind of extremist because I uphold Church doctrine.

No, join the club, you’ve just been dealt a dose of liberalism…fight it.

What is wrong with some people?

Liberalism.

They even seem opposed to the Latin language. When I ask for Latin Missals or prayer books all I get is a curt “we don’t have any.” Latin seems to have a stigma attached to it these days.

Makes me wonder too, I read that satan and the demons don’t like Latin either.

I like traditional Churches with stained glass windows and statues. !

Me too, hey are we related ? anyway I’m not shifting an inch to liberals, don’t you either.

 

[Pious_Mat]

What’s all this nonsense about “traditional” and “non-traditional” Catholics? As part of the Body of Christ, we, as His Church, are all called to be mindful of and obedient to Sacred Tradition, one of the three sources of the faith.

Remember that Gregorian Chant still has primacy of place, the Mass is still a Holy Sacrifice, and Latin is still the language of the Church, and most important of all, nothing in Vatican 2 changed any Doctrine.

Also, the EF is not “the Mass that only applies to all things pre-Vatican 2” and the OF is not “the Mass that only applies to all things post-Vatican 2”. Both exist in the here and now, and are both subject to all doctrines and practises of the same One, True, Holy, Apostolic, and Catholic Church. Believe it or not, they are actually the same Mass–the Roman Rite.

If we’ve said it once, we’ve said it a million times–there are no “liberal” and “conservative” Catholics. There are those who are faithful the Magisterium, and those who are not.

 

[KathleenElsie]

What’s all this nonsense about “traditional” and “non-traditional” Catholics? As part of the Body of Christ, we, as His Church, are all called to be mindful of and obedient to Sacred Tradition, one of the three sources of the faith.

Remember that Gregorian Chant still has primacy of place, the Mass is still a Holy Sacrifice, and Latin is still the language of the Church, and most important of all, nothing in Vatican 2 changed any Doctrine.

Also, the EF is not “the Mass that only applies to all things pre-Vatican 2” and the OF is not “the Mass that only applies to all things post-Vatican 2”. Both exist in the here and now, and are both subject to all doctrines and practises of the same One, True, Holy, Apostolic, and Catholic Church. Believe it or not, they are actually the same Mass–the Roman Rite.

If we’ve said it once, we’ve said it a million times–there are no “liberal” and “conservative” Catholics. There are those who are faithful the Magisterium, and those who are not.

Would the terms Practicing Catholics and Social catholics be better in your opinion? To me liberal and conservative are political stands in most cases that have some blending with the social-v-practicing spectrum of faith. So it is not hard to understand why many people use the terms to describe themselves and others.

Every religion has those that practice it and those that don’t yet still claim the affiliation. Sending the kids to CCD and Sunday Mass. (note I said sending and not bringing) The church suppers, bingo (ok I know I will get flamed ), retired dance clubs and the list goes on are in some cases the only reason people consider themselves a specific religion. These are social members sort of like the _______ (insert name of ethnic group) Club. None of these are bad just not the reason someone should call themselves by a Religious affiliation.

 

[pnewton]

Would the terms Practicing Catholics and Social catholics be better in your opinion?

That would be two very different categories. The majority of practicing, non-social Catholics do not attend, and would not attend, a Mass in Latin if a vernacular option was available. This is would remove them from the traditional category, at least as the term is commonly used. Orthodox and Heterodox are two other terms that have a significant meaning, yet again, have the same problem as above. Anytime we use labels we run into a problem, yet labels are a very useful shortcut in any dialogue.

 

[thistle]

Read Dempsey1919’s post carefully: he/she didn’t seem to insinuate that at all. In fact, the other sensible comments show that other respondents took Dempsey1919 to mean all the faithful.

True, he/she may have a personal preference: “What’s the big deal?! I’m not against Vatican II or the New Mass but everyone automatically assumes that I am”, but the comments show that the original post clearly encompasses anyone who would like something other than banal guitar-strumming. “Methinks the Lady doth protest too much”; i.e., you’re reading too much into this.

This was a perfectly sensible and charitable thread until you butted in.

I can see you are full of Christian charity!!!

 

[maurin]

I get so sick of the way that faithful Catholics are viewed by other members of the Church…

…I like traditional Churches with stained glass windows and statues. What’s the big deal?! I’m not against Vatican II or the New Mass but everyone automatically assumes that I am. I really annoys me!

Dempsey,

your first sentence that I’ve quoted above may hold the key to your frustration. You seem to be implying that you are the faithful Catholic, while “other members of the Church” are somehow less so. Just a thought. Maybe you’re telegraphing that idea in your dealings with these “other members.”

My first love is also for the Traditional Mass, and noone in my Novus Ordo Church begrudges me reception of the Eucharist on the tongue, not joining hands during the Our Father, only offering the sign of peace to my immediate neighbors, kneeling at the Agnus Dei or kneeling at the Incarnation during the recitation of the Creed.

When asked, I respond that this is how I am so moved, and I am trying to be faithful to the GIRM by focussing on the prayers at hand.

As a matter of fact, just yesterday, a woman from my Parish tried to grab my hand during the Our Father (my hands were joined in the usual prayer position). She apologized later for having been so bold.

 

[wmscott]

I have a true heart felt question that I would like to ask. Let me preface it by saying that as a convert to Catholicism (1983) I have always known the Catholic Church and the Mass as it is today. Some have been a little too “Liberal”, most middle of the road, and few leaning towards the conservative side. I could not imagine myself being anything other than Catholic. Truth is in undeniable. I prefer the more conservative side of Catholicism and the Priest that we have in my parish was educated in Rome and he has brought back some of the more traditional things that were missing. I am sure there is probably more that could be restored.

I do not have the ties or even memories to the Latin Mass as a lot of folks do. We do not even have them in my area. So my question is can a Mass be said in English but with the entire flavor of the TLM. To be honest, if it was in Latin I would loose interest but would love to have a traditional Mass of this type said in English. I my be wrong but I thought one of the provisions of Vatican II was to have the Mass said in the vernacular of the time. To me this does not negate the TLM but I would be able to understand the Mass. I do not want to be an observer. Again this is just a question because of my not understanding all of the issues, is there any middle ground on this subject that traditionalists can accept. Any insight would be welcomed, I will always be a Catholic, I love the faith. Thanks

 

[markadm]

It is not unfair, but it happens a lot and it happens both ways. So far non-traditional Catholics have been called lazy and shopping-cart Catholics. Yet I have to realize that most traditionalist Catholic types do not engage in that type of judegmentalism.

“It is not unfair”?

Whilst I agree that traditionalists are equally guilty of an uncharitable attitude towards non-traditionalists, since when did two wrongs make a right? Of course it’s unfair. Maybe understandable, maybe mitigated, but definitely not fair!

I can see you are full of Christian charity!!!

I’m sorry; I lost my temper.

 

[pnewton]

“It is not unfair”?

oops! Typo. I meant to say it is not fair, either way. The frequent targets of animosity are usually the kindest of us all.

 

[markadm]

oops! Typo. I meant to say it is not fair, either way. The frequent targets of animosity are usually the kindest of us all.

Oh drat! Sorry for that–I honestly though you had meant what you had written in error. It’s really not my day, is it? I think I’ll go and lie down in a darkened room…

 

[Edmac]

Consider that a great many Catholics under fiftyyears old
have never been properly catechized or evangelized. A lot
of church-going Catholics simply don’t KNOW. I am afraid that
the same thing can be said of many priests. The pity is, too,
that a lot of non-church-going Catholics are in the same boat.
And a pity that a result has been a great deal of uncharity among
Catholics.

I blame none of this on Vatican II. Vatican II was highjacked.
Blame must necessarily attach to the bishops, priests, religious,
theologians and teachers who either participated in the
highjacking or did nothing to stop it. That generation is
dying off or fading into retirement. I can only conclude that
the pre-Vatican II Church, thought of as so strong and unified,
was nothing of the sort. The priests and religious who poured
into the seminaries and orders in the '40s and 50s poured out
again in the '60s and 70s, and yet the Church was the same
Church. Nothing essential had changed.

Believe that the Holy Spirit is working in the Church. God’s ways
are not our ways. It may be that a purgation was necessary
and that we have been living through it. Our role is to be
as good Catholics as we can ( I might even try it myself some day) and love one another.

Edmac

 

[Brennan_Doherty]

I have a true heart felt question that I would like to ask. Let me preface it by saying that as a convert to Catholicism (1983) I have always known the Catholic Church and the Mass as it is today. Some have been a little too “Liberal”, most middle of the road, and few leaning towards the conservative side. I could not imagine myself being anything other than Catholic. Truth is in undeniable. I prefer the more conservative side of Catholicism and the Priest that we have in my parish was educated in Rome and he has brought back some of the more traditional things that were missing. I am sure there is probably more that could be restored.

I do not have the ties or even memories to the Latin Mass as a lot of folks do. We do not even have them in my area. So my question is can a Mass be said in English but with the entire flavor of the TLM. To be honest, if it was in Latin I would loose interest but would love to have a traditional Mass of this type said in English. I my be wrong but I thought one of the provisions of Vatican II was to have the Mass said in the vernacular of the time. To me this does not negate the TLM but I would be able to understand the Mass. I do not want to be an observer. Again this is just a question because of my not understanding all of the issues, is there any middle ground on this subject that traditionalists can accept. Any insight would be welcomed, I will always be a Catholic, I love the faith. Thanks

I also am a convert to the Catholic faith who did not grow up with the Traditional Latin Mass.

If there is going to be an entire Mass said in English it is going to be the Novus Ordo. And while that can be celebrated without abuses, I think the language of the current translation causes the liturgy to “plummet” even if it is surrounded by Gregorian chant in a church with altar rails (which I have experienced).

However, if you can find an Anglican use parish that would probably be the closest to what you are looking for.

That being said, the only way you are going to experience a Traditional Latin Mass is in Latin. And since you say you have not experienced one, I would not be too quick to say you would lose interest. The more one exposes himself to this liturgy the less foreign it is. And you can follow along and pray the prayers of the Mass which is an excellent way of participating, and I would say far more meaningful than just being engaged in activity the entire Mass.

God bless.

 

[piusphilistine]

I get so sick of the way that faithful Catholics are viewed by other members of the Church.

Everytime I mention that I attend the Tridentine Mass I get this strange look as if I am some kind of wierdo. It’s even worse when I say that I am against contraception. It’s really anoying to be thought of as some kind of extremist because I uphold Church doctrine.

What is wrong with some people? They seem to have a total aversion towards anything that is traditional. They think that everyone who attends the Tridentine Mass is some kind of schismatic radical. That isn’t correct nor is it fair.

They even seem opposed to the Latin language. When I ask for Latin Missals or prayer books all I get is a curt “we don’t have any.” Latin seems to have a stigma attached to it these days. Moreover, knowledge of the language has sunk to an all time low and no one seems to care. This is our history - it is worth saving.

Why is this? All I want to do is be a faithful Catholic. I like the traditional liturgy and everything that goes with it. I like the latin language and the unity that it creates. I like traditional Churches with stained glass windows and statues. What’s the big deal?! I’m not against Vatican II or the New Mass but everyone automatically assumes that I am. I really annoys me!

Really? I have never experienced what you are suggesting.

I would never look at anyone like they were a weirdo if they said they attended the Tridentine Mass. I might though, if they did it in a manner that intentionally denigrated the Pauline Mass. Or if they offered the Tridentine Mass as some sort of panacea that would “fix” the Church.

Same with ABC. That’s a very private subject that dosen’t come up too much around here. But when it does, it would appear that most Catholics who use ABC keep their lips zipped.

Where do you shop for your Latin-language reading materials? Unless you are in a large city, I doubt most bookstores would have enough traffic to offer many titles in Latin – but maybe they could order them for you

I’m curious. Do you express your love for the Latin language, stained glass windows and statues in a pure manner? Or do you do it in a way that attacks other people’s preferences? Do you try to position your preferences as being “superior” to other people’s choices?

 

[piusphilistine]

Dempsey,

your first sentence that I’ve quoted above may hold the key to your frustration. You seem to be implying that you are the faithful Catholic, while “other members of the Church” are somehow less so. Just a thought. Maybe you’re telegraphing that idea in your dealings with these “other members.”

My first love is also for the Traditional Mass, and noone in my Novus Ordo Church begrudges me reception of the Eucharist on the tongue, not joining hands during the Our Father, only offering the sign of peace to my immediate neighbors, kneeling at the Agnus Dei or kneeling at the Incarnation during the recitation of the Creed.

When asked, I respond that this is how I am so moved, and I am trying to be faithful to the GIRM by focussing on the prayers at hand.

As a matter of fact, just yesterday, a woman from my Parish tried to grab my hand during the Our Father (my hands were joined in the usual prayer position). She apologized later for having been so bold.

If your bishop specifies that you stand during the Agnus Dei (which is his decision), why would you kneel? Further, the GIRM instructs us to* bow* at the mention of the incarnation. Why would you choose to genuflect?

I’m curious why some people would choose not to follow what the Church instructs.