Raping non-muslim... Legal in Islam?

[jimmy]

I am amazed at how the muslims on this thread continue to avoid the question. JKirkLVNV has posted the same question four times and muslims keep skirting around the question. I would like to see a simple answer to JKirk’s question. Your continued avoidance of the question is a silent agreement with the assertion that muslims allow forced sex on non-muslim women.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

Your continued avoidance of the question is a silent agreement with the assertion that muslims allow forced sex on non-muslim women.

What was it from “A Man From All Seasons?” “Silence means consent?” But that was British common law, I don’t know how that would play out in Sha’ira law.

C’mon, Moslem posters, will you let us walk away with a misconception? Without trying to defend your faith and your prophet? Would you have us think the worst of your religion?

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

Too bad you do not know Islam.

Typical unevidenced Muslim non-response. I provide the evidence to support my claim and yet I do not know Islam. I think it is very much the reverse - it is you who either do not know Islam or are too blinkered to realize its flaws.

 

[thistle]

Why is there not a single muslim in this thread responding to the question (asked several times) of JKirkLVNV??

 

[JKirkLVNV]

I guess we have to assume that the hadith stands and Moslems do sanction a man forcing his attentions on a woman slave/captive.

 

[THEKING]

Rodrigo seems knowlegeable in Ahadith…Maybe you can quote some please? i’d have done it but my pc is too slow and needs fixing .thx

 

[Scholastica15]

I’m sorry Sufi but I will take the blame for taking this thread off topic; I asked the question. No worries and I apologize.
-S15-

 

[Eden]

Christians who owned slaves were not in violation of Christian teaching. St. Paul’s letter to Philemon is about Philemon’s slave Onesimus. He does not say that Philemon should not have a slave, only that he should be charitable to his brother in faith Onesimus. And in other epistles St. Paul exhorts slaves to be obedient to their masters as they are to Christ.

BUT the difference that I can see between Christian and Islamic holy texts is in the way that slave owners are to treat their slaves. And of course, a bigger difference is in the way Christianity has grown to interpret the sanctity and respect for the human person that was taught by Christ’s example. So in the Christian religion we have been able to grow in our understanding of God’s will for each individual, male or female, Jew or gentile, slave or free and have been able to come to know that slavery is not ordained by God.

This is in the context of pagan slave owners and Christian slaves, specifically how a Christian slave should show their Christian witness. Here is a New Advent article on slavery that touches on this:

newadvent.org/cathen/14036a.htm

Now, how many slaves did Jesus Christ own?

But look at Muhammed. He started taking slaves after he moved to Medina. He taught that the taking of slaves was “booty” or reward for having won in battle.

In the Quran, taking slaves is a God-given right:

33:50 - “Prophet, We have made lawful to you the wives to whom you have granted dowries and the slave girls whom God has given you as booty.”

The Quran also instructs Muslims NOT to force their female slaves into prostitution (24:34), and even allows Muslims to marry slaves if they so desire (4:24), and to free them at times as a penalty for crime or sin (4:92, 5:89, 58:3) and even allows slaves to buy their liberty, if they meet certain of their master’s conditions (24:33). [90:10 ‘freeing of a bondsman’ refers to Muslims ransoming other Muslims who were slaves of non-Muslims.]

And Bukhari’s Hadith:

Vol. 7-#137 Narrated Abu al-Khudri: “We got female captives in the war booty and we used to do coitus interruptus with them. So we asked Allah’s messenger about it and he said, “Do you really do that?” repeating the question thrice, “There is no soul that is destined to exist but will come into existence, till the Day of Resurrection.””

Here, Muslims had taken female slaves, and had sex with them. Muhammad approved of this. He only admonished them not to practice coitus interruptus.

Much more on the topic of slavery and Islam here:

islamreview.com/articles/slaveryinislam.shtml

 

[nathann]

Now, how many slaves did Jesus Christ own?

But look at Muhammed. He started taking slaves after he moved to Medina. He taught that the taking of slaves was “booty” or reward for having won in battle.

This is one the worst kinds of comparision I have ever seen.

Jesus Christ couldn’t even save his life from his own nation’s elite class and the Romans under whom the children of Israel were in. How could such helpless person (Jesus Christ) have slaves?

How many slaves other prophets of God had? What the Law of Holy Torah says in this regard? Wasn’t Holy Torah from same mercifull God or it was a different God when He revealed the Torah to prophet Moses? Did Jesus Christ not came to restore the Mosaic Law and even the Prophets?

Where and when Jesus Christ said that he abandoned all the Mosaic laws? What did he say in Matt. chapt. 23 in public and to his Jewish disciples?

Islam is whole system of life but Divine at the same time thus it gives laws to all important situations. It doesn’t have to be same as any other man made system of the world or corrupted theology of any religion.

The slave issue must be understood within the whole context of Islamic perspective. Once you do such justice then slave issue is not what you and may non-Moslim ignorants think. Scholars will laugh at you if they see your bogus arguments and statements on Islam.

Same is with many other objections such as stoning issue for adultery. The law of stoning is applicable only in an Islamic environment where all the rest of the Islamic laws too are effective. Within that whole Islamic system where all facilities are given to adult men/women to satisfy their natural sexual desires through all legal ways; voilating the law of Islam is a serious matter due to the maintenence of pureness of human seed and the harmony/tranquality of collective life.

It is like if America attacks N.Korea in the near future then you cannot blame America. Because America tried and still trying it’s best level to avoid war with N. Korea and gave chance to diplomacy and settle the conflict peacefully. But N. Korea rejects all the valuable peacefull efforts of America and the world community and therby if it is attacked by America then it is N. Korea’s fault. So before blaming anyone rightfully, you need to keep in mind thew whole context of the situation then America’s action against N. Korea will not look barbaric because America is the only God left on earth and it owns almost whole world. Hugo of Venezuala is nothing because he is a devil although he is a Roman Catholic.

 

[exoflare]

This is one the worst kinds of comparision I have ever seen.

Jesus Christ couldn’t even save his life from his own nation’s elite class and the Romans under whom the children of Israel were in. How could such helpless person (Jesus Christ) have slaves?

How many slaves other prophets of God had? What the Law of Holy Torah says in this regard? Wasn’t Holy Torah from same mercifull God or it was a different God when He revealed the Torah to prophet Moses? Did Jesus Christ not came to restore the Mosaic Law and even the Prophets?

Where and when Jesus Christ said that he abandoned all the Mosaic laws? What did he say in Matt. chapt. 23 in public and to his Jewish disciples?

Islam is whole system of life but Divine at the same time thus it gives laws to all important situations. It doesn’t have to be same as any other man made system of the world or corrupted theology of any religion.

The slave issue must be understood within the whole context of Islamic perspective. Once you do such justice then slave issue is not what you and may non-Moslim ignorants think. Scholars will laugh at you if they see your bogus arguments and statements on Islam.

…

You’re avoiding the issue here. Do you or do you not condone slavery?

 

[nathann]

You’re avoiding the issue here. Do you or do you not condone slavery?

What does the Holy Mosaic law given by God of Prophet Moses and Jesus Christ, says about war captives/slaves?

 

[exoflare]

What does the Holy Mosaic law given by God of Prophet Moses and Jesus Christ, says about war captives/slaves?

There are ordinances put in place limiting what people could and could not do with their slaves.

On a related note, there were also many ordinances put into place of what to do when people had committed certain sins.

In both cases, a consequence of humankind’s sin is being dealt with by God. However, it is fallacious to assume from these points that either slavery or sin in general was ever condoned by God. It merely shows that God acknowledged the presence of these evils, and made known his ways of dealing with them throughout the ages.

 

[Eden]

This is one the worst kinds of comparision I have ever seen.

When you compare the Son of God to a man, the man will never compare. This illustrates the divinity of Christ. By their fruits you shall know them.

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

The Quran does not prescribe punishment for rape, but as I mentioned previously the hadith does prescribe punishment. However, things are not as simple as that, since the ahadith mentioning punishment for rape is not regarded by some to be authentic.

Narrated Wa’il ibn Hujr: "When a woman went out in the time of the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) for prayer, a man attacked her and overpowered (raped) her. She shouted and he went off, and when a man came by, she said: That (man) did such and such to me. And when a company of the Emigrants came by, she said: That man did such and such to me. They went and seized the man whom they thought had had intercourse with her and brought him to her.

She said: Yes, this is he. Then they brought him to the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him). When he (the Prophet) was about to pass sentence, the man who (actually) had assaulted her stood up and said: Apostle of Allah, I am the man who did it to her.

He (the Prophet) said to the woman: Go away, for Allah has forgiven you. And about the man who had intercourse with her, he said: Stone him to death.

He also said: He has repented to such an extent that if the people of Medina had repented similarly, it would have been accepted from them. (Sunan Abu Dawud, Book 38, Number 4366)"

This hadith is also replicated by Imam Tirmidhi, and neither are considered sahih.

Nevertheless, Muhammad condoned the rape of female captives, according to both sahih and less sahih hadiths:

Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri:
We got female captives in the war booty and we used to do coitus interruptus with them. So we asked Allah’s Apostle about it and he said, “Do you really do that?” repeating the question thrice, "There is no soul that is destined to exist but will come into existence Sahih Bukhari, Volume 7, Book 62, Number 137:

Abu Sa’id al-Khudri said:
The Apostle of Allah sent a military expedition to Awtas on the occasion of the battle of Hunain. They met their enemy and fought with them. They defeated them and took them captives. Some of the Companions of the Apostle of Allah were reluctant to have intercourse with the female captives in the presence of their husbands who were unbelievers. So Allah, the Exalted, send down the Qur’anic verse: “And all married women (are forbidden) unto you save those (captives) whom your right hand possess.”[Surah 4:24] …Sunan Abu Dawud, Book V, Chapter 711, Number 2150

Hadith Abu Dawud, Book 11, number 2153
The Apostle of Allah said: “it is not lawful for a man who believes in Allah and the Last Day to have intercourse with a captive woman till she is free from a menstrual course.”

Muhammad had a female captive named Rayhanna bint Zayd who was of the Jewish Qurayza tribe. After Muhammad committed genocide on the Qurayza for supposedly allying themselves with the Meccans, even though the Qurayza refused to help the Meccans after the Battle of the Trench, he tooks some captives, including the beautiful Rayhanna and kept her as his concubine after she refused to convert to Islam.

Muhammad also permitted his followers to rape their female captives. This is known through the infamous azl (coitus interruptus) hadiths. He did not tell his followers to not rape their female captives. He merely told them not to perform coitus interruptus.

cont.

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

Bukhari Volume 3, Book 46, Number 718:
Narrated Ibn Muhairiz: I saw Abu Said and asked him about coitus interruptus. Abu Said said, "We went with Allah’s Apostle, in the Ghazwa of Barli Al-Mustaliq and we captured some of the 'Arabs as captives, and the long separation from our wives was pressing us hard and we wanted to practice coitus interruptus. We asked Allah’s Apostle (whether it was permissible). He said, “It is better for you not to do so. No soul, (that which Allah has) destined to exist, up to the Day of Resurrection, but will definitely come, into existence.”

Bukhari Volume 5, Book 59, Number 459:
Narrated Ibn Muhairiz: I entered the Mosque and saw Abu Said Al-Khudri and sat beside him and asked him about Al-Azl (i.e. coitus interruptus). Abu Said said, “We went out with Allah’s Apostle for the Ghazwa of Banu Al-Mustaliq and we received captives from among the Arab captives and we desired women and celibacy became hard on us and we loved to do coitus interruptus. So when we intended to do coitus interrupt us, we said, 'How can we do coitus interruptus before asking Allah’s Apostle who is present among us?” We asked (him) about it and he said, 'It is better for you not to do so, for if any soul (till the Day of Resurrection) is predestined to exist, it will exist."

Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 137:
Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri: We got female captives in the war booty and we used to do coitus interruptus with them. So we asked Allah’s Apostle about it and he said, “Do you really do that?” repeating the question thrice, “There is no soul that is destined to exist but will come into existence, till the Day of Resurrection.”

Bukhari Volume 8, Book 77, Number 600:
Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri: That while he was sitting with the Prophet a man from the Ansar came and said, “O Allah’s Apostle! We get slave girls from the war captives and we love property; what do you think about coitus interruptus?” Allah’s Apostle said, “Do you do that? It is better for you not to do it, for there is no soul which Allah has ordained to come into existence but will be created.”

 

[JKirkLVNV]

Still no straightforward answer to my query. Sad.

 

[nathann]

There are ordinances put in place limiting what people could and could not do with their slaves.

On a related note, there were also many ordinances put into place of what to do when people had committed certain sins.

In both cases, a consequence of humankind’s sin is being dealt with by God. However, it is fallacious to assume from these points that either slavery or sin in general was ever condoned by God. It merely shows that God acknowledged the presence of these evils, and made known his ways of dealing with them throughout the ages.

But now you are talking gibberish and avoiding the question I asked.

As to your statement “a consequence of humankind’s sin is being dealt with by God”, what is the punishment for those Jews and Romans who killed your Messiah, with a humiliated and barbaric death? Is Judas The Traitor going to burn in Hell forever or no? And how about the one who literally hanged your Messiah on the cursed cross/tree?

And does it make any sense if your dung is scattered on your face by your peaceful loving God?

And does it also make any sense if the hair between your legs are shaved by your same peaceful loving God with a rented razor from Asyrians? If “shaving the the hair between your legs” is symbolic then what mode your peaceful loving God will use to inflict his sufferings/disgrace on you?

If God says “If any man commit adultery with the wife of another, and defile his neighbour’s wife, let them be put to death, both the adulterer and the adulteress”, then who are you to question God? God is your Creator and He owns you and Everything that are known and unknown to you. You are nothing but a maggot in your God’s eyes.

And how the snakes and brood of vipers will escape being condemned to Hell?

It is God who can order you and all you have to do is submit to Him if you want Eternal life. Otheriwise you will burn in Hell. That’s why there is a Hell too if there is a Heaven. But I don’t blame you for objecting Laws of the God’s last Testament --Koran. Because God gave you free choice and He has to fill His Hell with people who are rebellious to the Koranic Laws.

Your God in your Bible says to the woman: “I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing; with pain you will give birth to children. Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you.” (Genesis 3: 16 ) Why? And your same Bible also says: “A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner.” (1 Tim 2:11-14 ) But according to the Koran both Adam and Eve were tempted by Satan. The Koran blames both of them for their sin. However, Adam and Eve prayed wholeheartedly to God Almighty for forgiveness and He forgave them. So in Islam we have a story about “original forgiveness” but not “original sin”

According to your Bible, Eve was the sinner and because of her sin all humans are born in sin.

 

[nathann]

After Muhammad committed genocide on the Qurayza for supposedly allying themselves with the Meccans, …

You though seem more Catholic than the Pope but are you an enemy of Catholic Chruch?

History is never basic, nor is it black or white. The history you quote me is an orientalist stance that I’ve come across many times before.

As the story goes, the Prophet Muhammed (PBUH) formed an alliance with a Jewish tribe, the Qurayza. In the heat of battle, they betrayed Prophet Muhammad’s army and allied with the pagan Meccans (As it seemed the latter was winning the war). When the Muslims overcame the Meccan army, and they surrendered. There was the issue of dealing with those who committed treason, the specific Jewish tribe in question. The Qurayza came out of their fort and surrendered, a chieftan of the (Jewish) Aws tribe supported the Qurayza stating that “O Apostle, they were our allies. Treat them as you treated the allies of our brethren, the Khazraj.” Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) replied “Will you be satisfied, O Aws, if one of your own number pronounces judgement on them?”. Joyfully they agreed, and the Qurayza breathed huge sighs of relief. Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) sent for Sa’d ben Muadh. He was injured badly during the war and had only a few days to live. He got up from his bed to pronounce judgement on the Qurayza. His fellow tribesman of Aws surged around him, “Deal kindly with our friends. Remember our alliance. The Prophet has named you, knowing your mercy.” Sa’d faced the Qurayza and said “The time has come for me to think of God’s cause and care not for any man’s blame.” He then condemned every man of them to death. Every tribe and clan (including Jewish) participated in the executions so that none of them would bear blood guilt. Muslim historians in relating this event blame it on the painful wound which had impassioned the mind of Sa’d and made him vengeful, so that he betrayed the Prophet’s kindly intentions.

It is Western historians who blame the whole episode on the Prophet. Forgetting the fact that Qurayza, by breaking their word, had become outlaw, and by doing it in war, they were punished in the extreme way we still punish traitors. Treason has always been met with capital punishment, in both East and West. And for the Jewish tribe to betray their allies in the most critical juncture of the war, was even worse. The point here is, the Prophet did not pass judgement for the Qurayza to be executed, and even if he did, military and political convention gives him the justification to do so for what the Jewish tribe did. The women and children of the Qurayza were sold into slavery, but interestingly, guess who mass participated in this commercial endeavour?. The Jews of Madinah.
Betty Kalen in her book “Muhammad the Messenger of God” says in a conlcuding note on this episode
“It is really quite fruitless to fix blame on a desert chieftan for behaving according to the customs of his kind or to wonder why God should speak to us through such a man. It is better to look at the deeds of man at large and wonder that God should choose to speak to us at all.”
Honestly, what is wrong with your basic history of Islam?. Madina (or Medina) was never brutally overtaken, the Prophet was welcomed to the city in 622CE (not 632CE, the year the Prophet died). And Makkah (or Mecca) peacefully surrendered in 630CE. And the Prophet gave clemency to all those who used to persecute him.
The Prophet never attacked caravans (unless in a state of warfare of the opposing army). It was the succeeding centuries in which bands of nomadic Arabs did so. This is no fault of the Prophet. We don’t accuse Jesus for the Crusades, inquisitions and colonial exploitation that were done by Christians, in his name also.
Islam was never spread by the sword, if that was so their would not be a single Arab Christian walking the Earth today. It was the truth of Islam that brought my forefathers into its fold, and brings many adherents everyday. The Quran makes no mention of sword, and Western historians today acknowledge that Islam was never spread by force. Unlike Jesus (pbuh), the slaughtered Lamb, who said:
“Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.” --Matt 10:34
Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division: —LUKE 12:51
But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me. --LUKE 19:27
I’m sure the Prince of Peace if given a bit more time, his words would have translated into action. The intention says more the action in many cases. --Regards Malik Ali

 

[Eden]

You quote three verses from the Bible, but how many people did Jesus kill or order be killed? None? That’s correct. How many people did Muhammed kill or order be killed? Thousands? Correct. By your fruits you shall know them.

 

[exoflare]

But now you are talking gibberish and avoiding the question I asked.

I already answered your irrelevant question. You remember this?

exoflare:

There are ordinances put in place limiting what people could and could not do with their slaves.

If that’s not sufficient for you, just say so. But don’t go around making false claims that I avoided your question.

nathann:

As to your statement “a consequence of humankind’s sin is being dealt with by God”, what is the punishment for those Jews and Romans who killed your Messiah, with a humiliated and barbaric death? Is Judas The Traitor going to burn in Hell forever or no? And how about the one who literally hanged your Messiah on the cursed cross/tree?

And does it make any sense if your dung is scattered on your face by your peaceful loving God?

And does it also make any sense if the hair between your legs are shaved by your same peaceful loving God with a rented razor from Asyrians? If “shaving the the hair between your legs” is symbolic then what mode your peaceful loving God will use to inflict his sufferings/disgrace on you?

If God says “If any man commit adultery with the wife of another, and defile his neighbour’s wife, let them be put to death, both the adulterer and the adulteress”, then who are you to question God? God is your Creator and He owns you and Everything that are known and unknown to you. You are nothing but a maggot in your God’s eyes.

And how the snakes and brood of vipers will escape being condemned to Hell?

It is God who can order you and all you have to do is submit to Him if you want Eternal life. Otheriwise you will burn in Hell. That’s why there is a Hell too if there is a Heaven. But I don’t blame you for objecting Laws of the God’s last Testament --Koran. Because God gave you free choice and He has to fill His Hell with people who are rebellious to the Koranic Laws.

Your God in your Bible says to the woman: “I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing; with pain you will give birth to children. Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you.” (Genesis 3: 16 ) Why? And your same Bible also says: “A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner.” (1 Tim 2:11-14 ) But according to the Koran both Adam and Eve were tempted by Satan. The Koran blames both of them for their sin. However, Adam and Eve prayed wholeheartedly to God Almighty for forgiveness and He forgave them. So in Islam we have a story about “original forgiveness” but not “original sin”

According to your Bible, Eve was the sinner and because of her sin all humans are born in sin.

Getting off subject again… Like I asked you to begin with, do you condone slavery or not?