Raping non-muslim... Legal in Islam?

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thistle said:
That does not answer the question below which has now been repeated about 7 times but no Muslim seems able or willing to answer.

Is any Muslim willing to directly answer this question?

**
“Does Islam allow for the capture OR forcible captivity OR the exertion of formal or informal coercive power over women or the eslavement of the same, whose marriages are then null by virtue of the capture OR forcible captivity OR the exertion of formal or informal coercive power over those women or by the enslavement of the same, and then allow sexual relations between the captor/keeper/coercer/owner and those female slaves, even if that slave expresses the desire to NOT have sexual relations with her captor/keeper/coercer/owner ?”**
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No
 
I found the below quotes on this website muhammadanism.org/Hadith/Topics/Adultery.htm . Note especially the Hadith at the bottom from Sunan Abu Dawud

**Qur’an **

Also (forbidden are) women already married, except those (captives and slaves) whom your right hands possess. Thus has Allâh ordained for you. All others are lawful, provided you seek (them in marriage) with Mahr (bridal money given by the husband to his wife at the time of marriage) from your property, desiring chastity, not committing illegal sexual intercourse, so with those of whom you have enjoyed sexual relations, give them their Mahr as prescribed; but if after a Mahr is prescribed, you agree mutually (to give more), there is no sin on you. Surely, Allâh is Ever All-Knowing, All-Wise. Surah An-Nisâ’ 4:24 (Translated by Muhammad Al-Hilali and Muhammad Khan.)

**Sahih Muslim **

Abu Sirma said to Abu Sa’id al Khadri (Allah he pleased with him): 0 Abu Sa’id, did you hear Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) mentioning al-'azl? He said: Yes, and added: We went out with Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) on the expedition to the Bi’l-Mustaliq and took captive some excellent Arab women; and we desired them, for we were suffering from the absence of our wives, (but at the same time) we also desired ransom for them. So we decided to have sexual intercourse with them but by observing 'azl (Withdrawing the male sexual organ before emission of semen to avoid conception). But we said: We are doing an act whereas Allah’s Messenger is amongst us; why not ask him? So we asked Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him), and he said: It does not matter if you do not do it, for every soul that is to be born up to the Day of Resurrection will be born. Sahih Muslim Book 8 Number 3371

Abu Sa’id al-Khudri (Allah be pleased with him) reported: We took women captives, and we wanted to do 'azl with them. We then asked Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) about it, and he said to us: Verily you do it, verily you do it, verily you do it, but the soul which has to be born until the Day of judgment must be born. (emphasis added) Sahih Muslim Book 8 Number 3373

Sunan Abu Dawud

Abu Sa’id al-Khudri said: The Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) sent a military expedition to Awtas on the occasion of the battle of Hunain. They met their enemy and fought with them. They defeated them and took them captives. Some of the Companions of the Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) were reluctant to have intercourse with the female captives in the presence of their husbands who were unbelievers. So Allah, the Exalted, send down the Qur’anic verse: “And all married women (are forbidden) unto you save those (captives) whom your right hand possess.”[Surah 4:24] …Sunan Abu Dawud, Book V, Chapter 711, Number 2150
 
pro_universal said:
To get this back on subject, here’s a ruling on rape in Islam:

islamtoday.com/show_detail_section.cfm?q_id=159&main_cat_id=6
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Thanks for the URL, Pro_Universal.
However, the text mentions nothing about Non-Muslim women, slaves and concubines.

I can’t help but wonder why none of the followers of the Koran, on this forum, will even touch JKirkLVNV’s direct question about non-Muslim women and slaves.
Surely, if the teachings Muhammad and the Koran allow and even encourage this practice, a Muslim shouldn’t be reluctant to defend it, since using women in such a way would be considered a right and therefore lawful. (According to their prophet and the Koran)

Thanks again.

PAX,

Jullien
 
thistle said:
That does not answer the question below which has now been repeated about 7 times but no Muslim seems able or willing to answer.

Is any Muslim willing to directly answer this question?

**
“Does Islam allow for the capture OR forcible captivity OR the exertion of formal or informal coercive power over women or the eslavement of the same, whose marriages are then null by virtue of the capture OR forcible captivity OR the exertion of formal or informal coercive power over those women or by the enslavement of the same, and then allow sexual relations between the captor/keeper/coercer/owner and those female slaves, even if that slave expresses the desire to NOT have sexual relations with her captor/keeper/coercer/owner ?”**
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Muhammad did it…he broke his own law when he had intercourse, the same night, (did not wait the prescribed period), with a woman whose husband and family were killed by Muhammd. If this is not rape, i donno what it is…oh i see, it is called wisdom…wisdom is abundant in Islam : sexual slaves, polygamy, sex in heaven, temporary marriages…no wonder that al Islama dinu nikah .
 
Mr_Jullien said:
Thanks for the URL, Pro_Universal.
However, the text mentions nothing about Non-Muslim women, slaves and concubines.

I can’t help but wonder why none of the followers of the Koran, on this forum, will even touch JKirkLVNV’s direct question about non-Muslim women and slaves.
Surely, if the teachings Muhammad and the Koran allow and even encourage this practice, a Muslim shouldn’t be reluctant to defend it, since using women in such a way would be considered a right and therefore lawful. (According to their prophet and the Koran)

Thanks again.

PAX,

Jullien
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Meedo answered the question directly right above you.

The answer was an unqualified “No.”

Right there for you all to see…

Where are all the folks claiming this issue was never to be answered?
 
pro_universal said:
Meedo answered the question directly right above you.

The answer was an unqualified “No.”

Right there for you all to see…

Where are all the folks claiming this issue was never to be answered?
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Ok… no. So the famed prophet of Allah has violated his own law according to the post of InJesus?
 
inJESUS said:
Muhammad did it…he broke his own law when he had intercourse, the same night, (did not wait the prescribed period), with a woman whose husband and family were killed by Muhammd. If this is not rape, i donno what it is…oh i see, it is called wisdom…wisdom is abundant in Islam : sexual slaves, polygamy, sex in heaven, temporary marriages…no wonder that al Islama dinu nikah .
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Hi,

I purchased the CD set << which I highly recommend to all Catholics, other Christian denominations and non-muslims >> that Jullien posted on this thread.
Apparently, Muhammed was exempt from some of his own teachings/laws.
An example of this is the fact that according to the Qur’an, muslim men can take up to four wives.
Muhammed, on the other hand, could have as many wives as he wanted.

The Qur’an does not explicitly use the word, “rape”, but I have to ask the same question Jullien did: what else do men do with concubines and slaves???
I’d also like to know if muslims still follow the Qur’an as they were commanded by Muhammed.
If they do, then women slaves and concubines <<who are literally considered property>> have no say in what their captors and masters do to them.

While I won’t speak for other women, I can tell you this: The idea of forced sexual contact with any man <> under any circumstances is repugnant to me to say the very least.
And I, as a woman, definitely consider it rape.
Moreover, the Qur’an and the teachings of Muhammed disagree with Meedo’s “No”.

I need to listen to the CDs again and copy the chapters and verses dealing with this subject.
If I find a Qur’an online, I’ll paste those passages here.

God Bless!
 
Actually there were two questions in the post Meedo replied to and he did not specify which question he was answering. Assuming he is saying this practice is not allowed in Islam today, I have another question:

Is this practice not allowed in Islam today because of the absence of a rightly-guided caliphate to direct the use of the practice or is the practice not allowed in Islam today because the practice itself is considered rape and is therefore sinful?
 
ssejllenrad said:
Ok… no. So the famed prophet of Allah has violated his own law according to the post of InJesus?
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No, he never made such a law. This was the custom of the world at the time thousands of years ago. Islam through the Quran has pushed to free slaves. Many verses in the Quran support that . Now that the world doesnt have slavery then this custom is no longer to be praticed.

salam
 
janG said:
Actually there were two questions in the post Meedo replied to and he did not specify which question he was answering. Assuming he is saying this practice is not allowed in Islam today, I have another question:

Is this practice not allowed in Islam today because of the absence of a rightly-guided caliphate to direct the use of the practice or is the practice not allowed in Islam today because the practice itself is considered rape and is therefore sinful?
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I answered your question above.
 
This thread makes me understand the mentality of the people who thought Jews would kidnapp Christian children and make a pie using their blood.

No body seems to learn from teh Holocaust .
 
Examples of recent blood libel against the Jews in the Muslim world:

The Matzah Of Zion was written by the Syrian Defense Minister, Mustafa Tlass in 1983. The book concentrates on two issues: renewed ritual murder accusations against the Jews in the Damascus Affair of 1840, and The Protocols of the Elders of Zion.

In 2001 an Egyptian film company produced and aired a film called Horseman Without a Horse, partly based on Tlass’s book. The book was cited at a United Nations conferences in 1991 by a Syrian delegate.

Multiple branches of the Syrian government, including the Damascus Police Command and the Department of Antiquities and Museums, the security ministry, the culture ministry, created an anti-Semitic television TV series called Ash-Shatat (“The Diaspora”.) This series originally aired in Syria and in Lebanon late 2003, and was broadcast by Al-Manar, a satellite television network owned by Hezbollah. This TV series is based on the anti-Semitic forgery The Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion, shows the Jewish people as engaging in a conspiracy to rule the world, and presents Jews as people who murder Christian children, drain their blood, and use this blood to bake matzah.

On December 20, 2005, in a discussion with Iranian political analysts aired on Jaam-e Jam 2 Iranian TV, the author of the book The History of the Jews who works for the *Tehran Times*Dr. Hasan Hanizadeh said in particular: “Unfortunately, the West has forgotten two horrendous incidents, carried out by the Jews in 19th-century Europe - in Paris and London, to be precise. In 1883, about 150 French children were murdered in a horrible way in the suburbs of Paris, before the Jewish Passover holiday. Later research showed that the Jews had killed them and taken their blood. … A similar incident took place in London, when many English children were killed by Jewish rabbis. …”
In a twist on the libel of Jews using blood in matzah, a Passover food, in 2002, **a Saudi newspaper claimed that Jews use blood in hamantashen, triangular cookies eaten on the Jewish holiday of **Purim. The story celebrated on Purim, recounted in the Book of Esther, takes place in ancient Persia (modern-day Iran).

A 2004 story from Iran speaks of Jewish doctors stealing organs of Palestinian children in Israeli hospitals.
No body seems to learn from teh Holocaust .
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That’s interesting that you should say that, given the amount of Holocaust denial coming out of the Muslim world these days. The most vocal of them all is Iran’s president Ahmadinejad who called the Holocaust a “fairy tale” and ran a Holocaust cartoon contest in “protest” of the Danish Muhammed cartoons.
 
My last post was in response to the distraction by meedo about blood libel and the Holocaust.

I don’t mean to derail the thread, so back to the topic: Raping non-muslim… Legal in Islam?
 
Eden said:
This is in the context of pagan slave owners and Christian slaves, specifically how a Christian slave should show their Christian witness. Here is a New Advent article on slavery that touches on this:

newadvent.org/cathen/14036a.htm

Now, how many slaves did Jesus Christ own?

But look at Muhammed. He started taking slaves after he moved to Medina. He taught that the taking of slaves was “booty” or reward for having won in battle.

In the Quran, taking slaves is a God-given right:

33:50 - “Prophet, We have made lawful to you the wives to whom you have granted dowries and the slave girls whom God has given you as booty.”

The Quran also instructs Muslims NOT to force their female slaves into prostitution (24:34), and even allows Muslims to marry slaves if they so desire (4:24), and to free them at times as a penalty for crime or sin (4:92, 5:89, 58:3) and even allows slaves to buy their liberty, if they meet certain of their master’s conditions (24:33). [90:10 ‘freeing of a bondsman’ refers to Muslims ransoming other Muslims who were slaves of non-Muslims.]

And Bukhari’s Hadith:

Vol. 7-#137 Narrated Abu al-Khudri: “We got female captives in the war booty and we used to do coitus interruptus with them. So we asked Allah’s messenger about it and he said, “Do you really do that?” repeating the question thrice, “There is no soul that is destined to exist but will come into existence, till the Day of Resurrection.””

Here, Muslims had taken female slaves, and had sex with them. Muhammad approved of this. He only admonished them not to practice coitus interruptus.

Much more on the topic of slavery and Islam here:

islamreview.com/articles/slaveryinislam.shtml
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**
RE: islamreview.com/articles/…yinislam.shtml**
What an incredibly enlightening site! Thanks so much for posting the URL.

God Bless!
 
nathann said:
This is one the worst kinds of comparision I have ever seen.

Jesus Christ couldn’t even save his life from his own nation’s elite class and the Romans under whom the children of Israel were in. How could such helpless person (Jesus Christ) have slaves?

How many slaves other prophets of God had? What the Law of Holy Torah says in this regard? Wasn’t Holy Torah from same mercifull God or it was a different God when He revealed the Torah to prophet Moses? Did Jesus Christ not came to restore the Mosaic Law and even the Prophets?

Where and when Jesus Christ said that he abandoned all the Mosaic laws? What did he say in Matt. chapt. 23 in public and to his Jewish disciples?

Islam is whole system of life but Divine at the same time thus it gives laws to all important situations. It doesn’t have to be same as any other man made system of the world or corrupted theology of any religion.

The slave issue must be understood within the whole context of Islamic perspective. Once you do such justice then slave issue is not what you and may non-Moslim ignorants think. Scholars will laugh at you if they see your bogus arguments and statements on Islam.

Same is with many other objections such as stoning issue for adultery. The law of stoning is applicable only in an Islamic environment where all the rest of the Islamic laws too are effective. Within that whole Islamic system where all facilities are given to adult men/women to satisfy their natural sexual desires through all legal ways; voilating the law of Islam is a serious matter due to the maintenence of pureness of human seed and the harmony/tranquality of collective life.

It is like if America attacks N.Korea in the near future then you cannot blame America. Because America tried and still trying it’s best level to avoid war with N. Korea and gave chance to diplomacy and settle the conflict peacefully. But N. Korea rejects all the valuable peacefull efforts of America and the world community and therby if it is attacked by America then it is N. Korea’s fault. So before blaming anyone rightfully, you need to keep in mind thew whole context of the situation then America’s action against N. Korea will not look barbaric because America is the only God left on earth and it owns almost whole world. Hugo of Venezuala is nothing because he is a devil although he is a Roman Catholic.
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You believe anything you want. Jesus Christ went to save all of us from eternal damnation…including you…though, of course, any one can reject the gift. North Korean and all of this bul****have absolutely nothing, I mean aboslutely nothing to do with this—the same thing is always being said by the m,slims…up until now I have tried to be patient with your kind, but I say now, that if no muslim whatsoever can provide genuine proof that they are a peaceful lot, then their mosques need to be forever banned from this eart h until Christ’s return…and he will return…all of us will be judged…be prepared for his return.

Now that I am calmer, I will reiterate that I have been trying all along to see any sign of goodness in your religion. I see no evidence that this is the case. Prove it. Quote from the Quaran, this is my challenge to you. I will no longer presume alleged peacefulness /wo evidence. The have killed 14-year olds. Now show that this is not your way. Prove it.
 
prv said:
You believe anything you want. Jesus Christ went to save all of us from eternal damnation…including you…though, of course, any one can reject the gift. North Korean and all of this bul****have absolutely nothing, I mean aboslutely nothing to do with this—the same thing is always being said by the m,slims…up until now I have tried to be patient with your kind, but I say now, that if no muslim whatsoever can provide genuine proof that they are a peaceful lot, then their mosques need to be forever banned from this eart h until Christ’s return…and he will return…all of us will be judged…be prepared for his return.

Now that I am calmer, I will reiterate that I have been trying all along to see any sign of goodness in your religion. I see no evidence that this is the case. Prove it. Quote from the Quaran, this is my challenge to you. I will no longer presume alleged peacefulness /wo evidence. The have killed 14-year olds. Now show that this is not your way. Prove it.
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Wow prv! I sure could have used you over at: "Why I left the Catholic Church**".**

Some deem it necessary to crucify me for telling the truth in defense of Holy Mother Church.
Now show that this is not your way. Prove it.
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**Yeah, I’d like to see some proof, too.
I’m getting pretty tired of the evasive answers we’ve been receiving on this thread.
**
PAX,

Jullien
 
Eden said:
Thanks. I’ve learned a lot from that site, so I’m glad to hear that you find it informative, too. 👍 Granted it’s compiled by ex-Muslims and we all know how ex-Catholics’ sites can be inaccurate. But so far, I’ve not seen anyone convincingly refute the information at Islam Review.
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RE: Thanks. I’ve learned a lot from that site, so I’m glad to hear that you find it informative
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Oh boy, did I learn! And some of it downright chills me to the very marrow of my bones.

Actually, I’ve been following most of your links. They’re great and very informative. Keep em’ comin’! 👍

Thanks again and God Bless!
 
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Eden:
Ditto.

Thanks! Have you seen the videos of Dr. Wafa Sultan yet?

Here are links to the videos:

youtube.com/watch?v=2WLoasfOLpQ

youtube.com/watch?v=Negt6IzxPTo
Hi Eden,

Yes, I just got back from the site. After watching Dr. Wafa Sultan’s videos, I couldn’t tear myself away from viewing a few more.
This poor woman is going to have to constantly look over her shoulder for the rest of her life. May Jesus Christ, God the Son, protect her and strengthen her.

God Bless you, my sister-in-Christ!
 
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