Raping non-muslim... Legal in Islam?

[Denise_Shae]

Hi there nice person. My birth name was Dennis and two of my sisters who died at very young age, I named one Denise.

It’s ok to be sarcastic with me. I’m sarcastic sometimes myself. So don’t worry about being sarcastic. I take many things lightly.

A slave in Islam has rights. Many rights similar to their Masters. If you are West Indian or know any one from the West Indies, they can tell you about a certain people called ‘HELPERS’ a Helper is what we Americans would consider a maid or such, like Florence from The Jeffersons. This is what a slave was like in Islam. Just someone to do the extra duties around the house. They ate the same foods the Masters ate, sleep in the same homes, not discriminated against by their race, they are allowed to marry the same women, allowed to be FULLY freed, if bought by someone etc.

A slave in America was someone who was considered lower than their Master, not allowed to read or educate them selves, Black, Indian or Spanish decent, ate the left overs, ate the worst parts of the meat; the tail, the back, the feet etc.

Hi Sufi,

I take many things lightly.

Yeah, like your Font Color.
Sorry, but sometimes I have to get so close to my monitor to distinguish the light text properly that I’m almost kissing it.

**My birth name was Dennis **

I see your parents have good taste.
Since your birth name was Dennis, would I be correct in assuming that you’re a convert to Islam?
If so, I’d love to hear and understand what led you to the Islamic faith.
Conversion stories always fascinate me. (Of course, a new Thread would be needed since it would be off topic here)

This is what a slave was like in Islam. Just someone to do the extra duties around the house. They ate the same foods the Masters ate, sleep in the same homes, not discriminated against by their race, they are allowed to marry the same women, allowed to be FULLY freed, if bought by someone etc.

I notice you used the past tense here.
Has slavery been done away with in Islamic culture as it was eventually abolished in America. Especially the buying and selling of them?
Not having been around at the time of early America, I can’t even imagine what it was like. The thought of it, literally, makes me cringe.

Thank you for clarifying the differences for me and for being so polite, Sufi.

Peace to you and yours

 

[Valke2]

I’ve herd in the news that the Abu Sayyaf (A radical muslim group here in the Philippines) said that they have the right to rape and kill their non-muslim hostages because the Quran says so… Is this really in the Quran? It’s hard to believe since they are extremists who said so…

what news story?

 

[Damascus]

I’ve herd in the news that the Abu Sayyaf (A radical muslim group here in the Philippines) said that they have the right to rape and kill their non-muslim hostages because the Quran says so… Is this really in the Quran? It’s hard to believe since they are extremists who said so…

Islam is hard to believe. I cant buy into the theology let alone how the quran is a credible thing to begin with. No one has a right to commit a crime no matter what any loopholes imagined or otherwise state. Period.
If Jesus told us it would be okay for us to rape non christians would you do it?
Heck no.

 

[exoflare]

Since this is a Catholic forum and you are hired/invited by Catholics to defend their Catholicism because you are not a Catholic and Catholics are not good enough to defend their faith because Catholicism is irrational and illogical;

Hey, another good example of a red herring.

 

[Denise_Shae]

Originally Posted by nathann
Since this is a Catholic forum and you are hired/invited by Catholics to defend their Catholicism because you are not a Catholic and Catholics are not good enough to defend their faith because Catholicism is irrational and illogical;

Could somebody please translate this into intelligible English?
Sorry, but I’m just one of those ignorant, “irrational and illogical” Catholics.

 

[Eden]

Here is an interesting book being sold at Amazon.com entitled:

“Islam’s Black Slaves: The Other Black Diaspora”

amazon.com/Islams-Black-Slaves-Other-Diaspora/dp/0374227748

**Editorial Reviews

**From Publishers Weekly

Designed as a companion volume to Segal’s The Black Diaspora, which traced the movements of blacks in the Western Hemisphere from the Atlantic slave trade to the present, this book undertakes the formidable task of recounting the dispersion of black Africans in Asia and the Middle East, most of which was forced by the Islamic slave trade. “In Islam, slavery was never the moral, political, and economic issue that it was in the West, so there are fewer sources about its history,” notes Segal, the founding editor of the Penguin African Library and the author of 14 other books. Still, he pieces together a compelling drama of conquests and conversions, beginning with an illuminating chapter about the differences between the Atlantic and Islamic trades: the Islamic trade began some eight centuries before the Atlantic one, and preferred women slaves over men. His account then moves from early Islam, when laws did not subject slaves to any special racial discrimination, into the 19th century, when the process of enslaving blacks came to involve violence and brutality on a gigantic scale. Segal also discusses the extension of the Islamic trade into China, India and Spain, the role of the Ottoman Empire, slavery in Iran and Libya, and the effect of European colonization, which he argues “preserved the force if not the face of old subjugations.” A preliminary dig in a little-explored area, this book has a rough-hewn quality about it; scholars may find it too general, even if it provides seeds for further study. General readers, however, will find much that is new, particularly in the early chapters, where Segal trains his eye on the part slaves played in the development of the high civilization attained by imperial Islam.

 

[Eden]

For the pure-black populations of Sudan and Mauritania, independence from colonial rule marked the end of a slavery-free respite. Slavery was “abolished” several times in Mauritania since independence, most recently on July 5, 1980. Yet the Anti-Slavery Society’s findings (1982) and those of Africa Watch (1990) point to the existence of at least 100,000 “full-time” slaves and additional 300,000 half-slaves, all of them black, still being held by Arab-Mauritanians. Even the head of state from 1960 to 1978, Mokhtar Ould Daddah, kept slaves behind the presidential palace. The Mauritanian government has not tried to eradicate slavery and failed; it has not tried at all. Even the old Arab practice of forming slave armies is being revived in Mauritania, where thousands of Haratines were forcibly recruited, armed, and sent to take over black African villages in the south, where they massacred the inhabitants.

The Arabian Peninsula in 1962 became the world’s penultimate region to officially abolish slavery, yet years later Saudi Arabia alone was estimated to contain a quarter of a million slaves. Thousands of miles away from Africa, in Pakistan’s Northwest Frontier Province, girls as young as five are auctioned off to highest bidders. Afghan girls between the ages of 5 and 17 sell for $80 to $100. The price depends on the colors of their eyes and skin; if they are virgins, the price is higher. The girls are generally sold into prostitution or, if they are lucky, they may join harems in the Middle East.

frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=4686

 

[Sufi]

Sufi,
Please don’t insult our intelligence. A maid is not a slave.

In Islam, a slave is the property of his/her master. A maid is an employee and belongs to nobody else.

In Islam, a slave is available for the sexual pleasure of her master. A maid isn’t.

In Islam, a slave doesn’t eat the same food as her master - where did you get that idea?

In Islam, a slave can be bought and sold at any time. A maid cannot be bought and sold.

In Islam, a slave may buy his/her freedom - but with what money?

In Islam, if a master decides to renege on freeing his/her slave all he/she has to do is a religious penance, say vow to give up meat for a day. And that is sufficient to dishonor any vow to any slave.

In Islam, slaves were/are treated worst than animals but you wouldn’t know that, would you?

I think you are insulting my inteligence. Where did I say that a maid was a slave? Show me this first, then I can answer any other ignorant questions you have.

 

[Eden]

Slavery in Pakistan:

According to representatives of War Against Rape, a national anti-rape organization, Women’s Action Forum, an umbrella group for women’s organizations throughout Pakistan, and the Bonded Labour Liberation Front (BLLF), a national advocacy group for bonded laborers, women bonded laborers are frequently sexually assaulted.

As Ehsanullah Khan of the BLLF said in an interview with Human Rights Watch/Asia, "One of the most important issues facing bonded laborers in all parts of Pakistan is rape of women bonded laborers. Our reports indicate that it is happening regularly in brick-kilns, at carpet-looms, and in agriculture.

"Human Rights Watch/Asia interviewed two women bonded laborers whose daughters had been raped at brick-kilns near Lahore, one man whose wife was raped in the interior of Sindh, and two women who were raped in the interior of Sindh. If women bonded laborers seek legal recourse after sexual assault, they are subject to a series of laws which equate rape with adultery, an offense for which they can be punished under Pakistan’s Hudood Ordinances.

In agriculture and brick-making, if a male member of a family leaves the work site or the immediate vicinity, female family members can be held in custody as a guarantee for their return. If their family members do not return, these women are often sold into marriage or prostitution.

Human Rights Watch/Asia interviewed five families, three at brick-kilns near Lahore and two at agricultural sites near Hyderabad, who had a female family member sold into marriage after her father or husband left his place of bondage.

The bonded labor system makes extensive use of children. Human Rights Watch/Asia observed children working at every brick-kiln, carpet-loom, and agricultural site that it visited in Pakistan. A representative of the International Labor Organization in Islamabad told Human Rights Watch/Asia that bonded child labor in Pakistan was one of its greatest concerns.

While all bonded laborers are victims of a consistent pattern of abuse, a Christian lawyer in Lahore, who wished to remain unidentified for fear of reprisal, stated, "Christian bonded laborers suffer double exploitation as religious minorities and as bonded laborers."Human Rights Watch/Asia found it difficult to document particular abuses against non-Muslim bonded laborers as non-Muslims. However, eight Christians and three Hindus interviewed by Human Rights Watch/Asia stated that they were forced to work harder and were punished more brutally than Muslim bonded laborers. Asif Ali, a landlord from Sindh told Human Rights Watch/Asia that “the Kohlis and Bheels [low-caste Hindus] were kaffirs [infidels] and did not deserve any rights.” Despite the difficulty in documenting specific violations against non-Muslim bonded laborers as non-Muslims, it should be noted that the government of Pakistan legally discriminates against religious minorities and its practices have created a climate where the basic rights of such minorities are violated with impunity.

More at Human Rights Watch:

hrw.org/reports/1995/Pakistan.htm

 

[Eden]

**
Human Rights Watch:

If women bonded laborers seek legal recourse after sexual assault, they are subject to a series of laws which equate rape with adultery, an offense for which they can be punished under Pakistan’s Hudood Ordinances.

**

The Hudood Ordinance (Urdu: حدود مسودہ ) is a law in Pakistan, intended to implement Muslim Shari’a law, which enforces punishments mentioned in the Quran and sunnah for a number of crimes. It was enacted in 1979 as part of then military ruler Zia-ul-Haq’s Islamization process.

The Ordinance is most criticized for criminalizing all extra-marital sex (zina), and making it exceptionally difficult and dangerous to prove an allegation of rape. A woman alleging rape is required to provide four adult male witnesses of “the act of penetration”, and if the accused man is Muslim, the witnesses must be Muslims themselves. Failure to prove rape places the woman at risk of prosecution for adultery, which does not require such strong evidence[1].

For married Muslims, the maximum punishment for zina is death by stoning, or for unmarried couples or non-Muslims, 100 lashes. In practise, only imprisonment has ever been enforced, because the maximum punishments require four eyewitnesses as above.
The Hudood Ordinance also criminalises drinking alcohol (punishment: 80 lashes) and theft (punishment: amputation of the right hand).

A number of international and Pakistani human rights organizations are making an effort to get the law repealed. However, they are opposed by conservative religious parties, who accuse the government of departing from Islamic values. The governments of Benazir Bhutto and Nawaz Sharif both set up commissions to investigate the Hudood Ordinance. Both commissions recommended amending certain aspects of the law, but neither government followed through.

In 2006, president Musharraf again proposed reform of the Ordinance[2]. On September 13th 2006, a bill was delayed in parliament that would make rape prosecutable as a civil offense, falling under civil law. If the bill passes, rape will be able to be tried under Islamic and civil law, as opposed to just civil [3].

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hudood_Ordinance

 

[Sufi]

Sufi,
Please don’t insult our intelligence. A maid is not a slave.

In Islam, a slave is the property of his/her master. A maid is an employee and belongs to nobody else.

In Islam, a slave is available for the sexual pleasure of her master. A maid isn’t.

In Islam, a slave doesn’t eat the same food as her master - where did you get that idea?

In Islam, a slave can be bought and sold at any time. A maid cannot be bought and sold.

In Islam, a slave may buy his/her freedom - but with what money?

In Islam, if a master decides to renege on freeing his/her slave all he/she has to do is a religious penance, say vow to give up meat for a day. And that is sufficient to dishonor any vow to any slave.

In Islam, slaves were/are treated worst than animals but you wouldn’t know that, would you?

Here is a well known Islamic slave. Show me any proof of him being treated worst than a animal by Muslims and all the other things you said. If you can’t and you can not. I advise you to shut the hell up and talk when you have studied this for 11 years or more ok? You guys are really getting me pissed off now with your lies and un educated statments.

Then you turn around and call Muslims liars etc when these attributes are yours.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bilal_ibn_Ribah

 

[dosdog]

Here is a well known Islamic slave. Show me any proof of him being treated worst than a animal by Muslims and all the other things you said. If you can’t and you can not. I advise you to shut the hell up and talk when you have studied this for 11 years or more ok? You guys are really getting me pissed off now with your lies and un educated statments.

Then you turn around and call Muslims liars etc when these attributes are yours.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bilal_ibn_Ribah

Slave Trade Thrives in Sudan
Arab Masters Can Do as They Please
By KARIN DAVIES associated press
MADHOL, Sudan (AP) - Stacks of money pass from the Christian
foreigner to the Muslim trader, an exchange anxiously watched by a 13-
year-old girl with diamonds of sweat on her brow.The Sudanese trader, his lap buried by currency worth $13,200, waves
carelessly to free his merchandise - 132 slaves.
Akuac Malong, the young Dinka girl, is among them. She has spent seven years - more than half her life - enslaved by an Arab in northern Sudan .Her brilliant smile belies the beatings, near-starvation, mutilation and attempted brainwashing she endured. ``I thought it would be better to die than to remain a slave,’’ Akuac says.

Slavery, Abduction and Forced Servitude in Sudan Slavery, Abduction and Forced Servitude in Sudan -[Download PDF format] Releasedby the Bureau of African Affairs May 22, 2002 Report of the International …
www.state.gov/p/af/rls/rpt/10445.htm - 101k - 2002-05-22

 

[Eden]

Here is a well known Islamic slave. Show me any proof of him being treated worst than a animal by Muslims and all the other things you said. If you can’t and you can not. I advise you to shut the hell up and talk when you have studied this for 11 years or more ok? You guys are really getting me pissed off now with your lies and un educated statments.

Then you turn around and call Muslims liars etc when these attributes are yours.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bilal_ibn_Ribah

It is my understanding that Islam’s slaves are predominantly female. So, are we supposed to draw inspiration from the story of Muhammed’s young male slave simply because he appears to have been treated humanely? And was Bilal a eunuch? More importantly, what about the women?

I am basing this information that female slaves outnumber male slaves in Islamic countries on the book “Islam’s Black Slaves: The Other Black Diaspora” by Ronald Segal.

“Whereas the gender ratio of slaves in the Atlantic trade was two males to every female, in the Islamic trade, it was two females to every male. Very large numbers of slaves were used for domestic purposes. Concubinage was for those who could afford it and there was no disrepute attached to having women as sexual objects. In fact, they married them. Some harems could be enormous. One ruler had 14,000 concubines. In one respect, women slaves were a status symbol. I hate to say it this way, but it’s comparable to the way people in the West collect motorcars.”

archive.salon.com/books/int/2001/04/05/segal/index.html

 

[Ella]

Um, Eden, did you read the article on Salon that you linked to? Re: the interview with Ronald Segal? Because it agrees more with Sufi than with you!

“Does the Koran specify how slaves should be treated?
The Koran is the key. The relationship between slave and master in Islam is a very different relationship from that between the American plantation laborer and owner. It was a much more personalized relationship and relatively benevolent. Everything here is relative – being a slave is being a slave and it shouldn’t be romanticized.
The institution of slavery is sanctioned in the Koran. To say that the Koran is in any way opposed to the institution of slavery would be wrong. It is never recommended, but it is influentially and explicitly benevolent in its attitude to the poor, the orphaned and slaves. And there is a specific injunction that to free a slave is an act of piety, which has its due reward in the other life.
Incidentally, what was absolutely outlawed in the Koran was to separate an infant or a young child from his mother.
Which was normal in America.
Right. There is a specific statement in the Koran that says that he who separates the child from his mother will himself be separated from his loved ones on the day of judgment.
Since it was an act of piety with immeasurable reward, the incidence of emancipation or enfranchisement was enormously more widespread in Islam than it was in the Western form of slavery. There wasn’t a complete separation of master from former slave. Usually, a patron and client relationship developed between slave and master. For example, in Mauritania today there are freed slaves called Haratin whose descendants still pay tribute to the family of the owner. Specifically in the Koran, the owner of a slave is enjoined to provide that slave with an opportunity to purchase his freedom.
There would be a binding contract in which the slave would be provided with the opportunity to earn money for himself and pay in installments to his owner, which by practice, if not by law, became a gratuity. There were then two motivations for freeing your slave – a reward in heaven and money in this world.”

It is my understanding that Islam’s slaves are predominantly female. So, are we supposed to draw inspiration from the story of Muhammed’s young male slave simply because he appears to have been treated humanely? And was Bilal a eunuch? More importantly, what about the women?

I am basing this information that female slaves outnumber male slaves in Islamic countries on the book “Islam’s Black Slaves: The Other Black Diaspora” by Ronald Segal.

“Whereas the gender ratio of slaves in the Atlantic trade was two males to every female, in the Islamic trade, it was two females to every male. Very large numbers of slaves were used for domestic purposes. Concubinage was for those who could afford it and there was no disrepute attached to having women as sexual objects. In fact, they married them. Some harems could be enormous. One ruler had 14,000 concubines. In one respect, women slaves were a status symbol. I hate to say it this way, but it’s comparable to the way people in the West collect motorcars.”

archive.salon.com/books/int/2001/04/05/segal/index.html

 

[Sufi]

Slave Trade Thrives in Sudan
Arab Masters Can Do as They Please
By KARIN DAVIES associated press
MADHOL, Sudan (AP) - Stacks of money pass from the Christian
foreigner to the Muslim trader, an exchange anxiously watched by a 13-
year-old girl with diamonds of sweat on her brow.The Sudanese trader, his lap buried by currency worth $13,200, waves
carelessly to free his merchandise - 132 slaves.
Akuac Malong, the young Dinka girl, is among them. She has spent seven years - more than half her life - enslaved by an Arab in northern Sudan .Her brilliant smile belies the beatings, near-starvation, mutilation and attempted brainwashing she endured. ``I thought it would be better to die than to remain a slave,’’ Akuac says.

Slavery, Abduction and Forced Servitude in Sudan Slavery, Abduction and Forced Servitude in Sudan -[Download PDF format] Releasedby the Bureau of African Affairs May 22, 2002 Report of the International …
www.state.gov/p/af/rls/rpt/10445.htm - 101k - 2002-05-22

Please provide proof with ayat and sunnah. I’m not going to continually make this statement over and over again. You guys seem to judge Islam by what people do and not what the book says. I wonder what would happen to me if I did this with you?

Rachel Molly would ban me right?

 

[Sufi]

It is my understanding that Islam’s slaves are predominantly female. So, are we supposed to draw inspiration from the story of Muhammed’s young male slave simply because he appears to have been treated humanely? And was Bilal a eunuch? More importantly, what about the women?

I am basing this information that female slaves outnumber male slaves in Islamic countries on the book “Islam’s Black Slaves: The Other Black Diaspora” by Ronald Segal.

“Whereas the gender ratio of slaves in the Atlantic trade was two males to every female, in the Islamic trade, it was two females to every male. Very large numbers of slaves were used for domestic purposes. Concubinage was for those who could afford it and there was no disrepute attached to having women as sexual objects. In fact, they married them. Some harems could be enormous. One ruler had 14,000 concubines. In one respect, women slaves were a status symbol. I hate to say it this way, but it’s comparable to the way people in the West collect motorcars.”

archive.salon.com/books/int/2001/04/05/segal/index.html

Here is another male slave. Everytime you talk I’ll give you a male. Ok? So each can penetrate. What is your point of stating that female slaves were more than male slaves in Islam?

Only 1,4000? Sulaiman(as) Soloman and his pop Dawood(as) - David had how many to share amongst each other?

Islam gives more freedom to women ever. So don’t start with the women issues, I can open a thread about 1920 when women just recieved rights here in the West. I can also go to women not being able to be leaders in Western countries, the Bible saying that they shouldn’t speak in certain places etc. and other things. Stick to the topic or open a new thread.

I hope you guys are readin these. It’s the only way to correct your many rong information about Islam.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zayd_ibn_Harithah

 

[Sufi]

Ella they don’t read at all. That’s their problem. It only takes a few minutes to read the articles I post. I have a busy scheduled and anything they right long or short I read it just for them so I can respond wisely, but not them. They rather rant and rage over what they ‘think’ rather than what they know.

Yet, they call us the stupid ones.

You have a nice day Ella.

 

[uni]

Sufi,
Please don’t insult our intelligence. A maid is not a slave.

In Islam, a slave is the property of his/her master. A maid is an employee and belongs to nobody else.

In Islam, a slave is available for the sexual pleasure of her master. A maid isn’t.

What was Hagar to Abraham?

 

[Damascus]

What was Hagar to Abraham?

I forget- concubine or something like that?

 

[Valke2]

What was Hagar to Abraham?

Hagar was Sarah’s handmaiden. Which might be a pleasant way of saying “slave”.