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excatholic
Guest
God destroyed the Earth with the flood, it was his wrath.
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Dr.Colossus
Guest
Even Catholics agree with this, we just don’t call it the Rapture. The thing we object to is the idea that this is somehow disconnected from the Second Coming of the Lord, or that it is prior to the Great Tribulation. There is no real evidence of this in Scripture.
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PaulDupre
Guest
But the very passage YOU quoted says that this “rapture” takes place WHEN THE LORD COMES.
There is no way around it - the first resurrection and the accompanying rapture of the faithful takes place at the second coming. All else is 19th century fantasy.
Paul
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Maccabees
Guest
You hit the nail on the head brother!
For this we declare to you by the Word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will by no means precede those who have died. For the Lord Himself, with a shout, with the archangel’s call and with the sound of God’s trumpet, will descend from heaven, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up in the clouds together with them to meet the Lord in the air; and so we will be with the Lord forever. (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18).
What are the sequence of events here the dead rise first then we are caught up to meet Christ? Raptuirst conveneiently leave out the dead rist first to their theology note in the left beind novels no dead before the rapture that is completely unbiblical.
So is breaking up the resurrection of the dead and the second coming they occur in the same dispensation not a different one with some a 7 year tribulation and 10000 millnium the verses here describe one event the second coming.
And scripture makes clear when this is to occur the last day. It doesn’t say anything about a 7 year dispensation interrupted by another 1000 year dispensation. You have to do a lot of cherry picking out of context to get that no one passage says that all single passages indicate the same dispensation. That occurs on the last day.
John 6:39 "This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of (56) all that He has given Me I (57) lose nothing, but (58) raise it up on the last day.
40 “For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who (59) beholds the Son and (60) believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will (61) raise him up on the last day.”
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Maccabees
Guest
You hit the nail on the head brother!
For this we declare to you by the Word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will by no means precede those who have died. For the Lord Himself, with a shout, with the archangel’s call and with the sound of God’s trumpet, will descend from heaven, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up in the clouds together with them to meet the Lord in the air; and so we will be with the Lord forever. (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18).
What are the sequence of events here the dead rise first then we are caught up to meet Christ? Raptuirst conveneiently leave out the dead rist first to their theology note in the left beind novels no dead before the rapture that is completely unbiblical.
So is breaking up the resurrection of the dead and the second coming they occur in the same dispensation not a different one with some a 7 year tribulation and 10000 millnium the verses here describe one event the second coming.
And scripture makes clear when this is to occur the last day. It doesn’t say anything about a 7 year dispensation interrupted by another 1000 year dispensation. You have to do a lot of cherry picking out of context to get that. No one passage says that. All single passages indicate the same dispensation. That occurs on the last day.
John 6:39 "This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of (56) all that He has given Me I (57) lose nothing, but (58) raise it up on the last day.
40 “For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who (59) beholds the Son and (60) believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will (61) raise him up on the last day.”
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excatholic
Guest
Dr. Colossus:
I will attempt an explanation of the Phenomenon known as the “rapture”. It is a difficult subject even for people who are not under the constraints of the RCC. I do not mean any offence in that but you must admit The RCC pretty much dictates what you will and will not believe. Interestingly enough from some of the studies I have done on this subject I have uncovered an interesting bit of information, it seems as though the “rapture” may have originated from catholic sources. If you want I will try to locate those for you, it may behoove you to do a little research on the subject, as you would be amazed at what you may find. It is not a clear cut Catholic vs. Protestant issue.
Hello Dr. Colossus:
I will attempt an explanation of the Phenomenon known as the “rapture”. It is a difficult subject even for people who are not under the constraints of the RCC. I do not mean any offence in that but you must admit The RCC pretty much dictates what you will and will not believe. Interestingly enough from some of the studies I have done on this subject I have uncovered an interesting bit of information, it seems as though the “rapture” may have originated from catholic sources. If you want I will try to locate those for you, it may behoove you to do a little research on the subject, as you would be amazed at what you may find. It is not a clear cut Catholic vs. Protestant issue.
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excatholic
Guest
continued
1st. God has never displayed his wrath upon his people, that is the people who faithfully serve him.2Pet.2:4 For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; 5 and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, one of eight people, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world of the ungodly; 6 and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes, condemned them to destruction, making them an example to those who afterward would live ungodly; 7 and delivered righteous Lot, who was oppressed by the filthy conduct of the wicked 8 (for that righteous man, dwelling among them, tormented his righteous soul from day to day by seeing and hearing their lawless deeds)-- 9 then the Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptations and to reserve the unjust under punishment for the day of judgment,
Certainly you would agree that God’ wrath brought about the flood and the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah wouldn’t you?
2nd. 2Thes.2 5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders.
I believe the only thing that is presently holding back the work of the anti christ is the Holy Spirit indwelling his people (all believers in Christ). I believe God’s Spirit filled people have to be taken out of the picture in order for the antichrist to perform his assigned task of evil. I believe this is what the afore mentioned scripture is alluding to
3rd.1Thes4: 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
I believe this is a separate event from the second coming described for us in Zec14:4 And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives,Which faces Jerusalem on the east.
And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two,From east to west, Making a very large valley; Half of the mountain shall move toward the north And half of it toward the south.
I believe this to be his actual second coming when he sets his feet on the Mountain. Just like God has always done he will spare his children his wrath. 1Thes 5:9 For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him.
God bless you friend.
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WBB
Guest
Yeah, but Noah and his family and the critters on the ark were the ones “left behind.”
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Dr.Colossus
Guest
Thank you. I would appreciate seeing a reasoned, logical argument in favor of the Rapture.
None taken. The Catholic Church does dictate what its members are to believe. It has the authority to do so. However, don’t assume that we all just follow blindly. After all, it was Pope John Paul II who wrote Fides et Ratio (Faith and Reason), encouraging use of the intellect where possible to understand the faith.
Many of the Church Fathers wrote about the final removal of God’s people from this world at the end of time. What they did not write about, to my knowledge, is the belief that this will happen prior to the Tribulation. I would be very interested in seeing sources that would support that theory written prior to John Nelson Darby in the 1800s.
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ppcpilot
Guest
Today at church, the reading in Luke was the one dealing with the end times, and how if two people are in bed, one will be taken and the other left.
How are we to interpret this?
How are we to interpret this?
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excatholic
Guest
Left behind or rescued from the ensuing wrath of God on the Earth? All of what was good about God’s creation was stored in an Arc until the wrath subsided. Do you remember something else that was stored in an Arc? The people left behind in the Flood died a terrible death just like much of humanity will when the wrath of tribulations falls on Earth.
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WBB
Guest
Yep, I agree about the suffering during the Tribulation. But there is not going to be a rapture before the Tribulation. The Church will have to persevere and be faithful until Jesus comes.
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Dr.Colossus
Guest
Certainly it was God’s wrath that destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah and brought about the flood. And Christ can and will deliver His faithful ones from destruction. He wouldn’t be much of a Savior if He didn’t. However, this does not mean that the children of God will never suffer. Do you think it was easy for Noah and his family to watch their world be destroyed? Or for Lot to lose his wife? God ultimately saved them, just as He will save our souls. But that does not mean we are guaranteed complete protection from difficulty.
(continued…)
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Dr.Colossus
Guest
(continued)
:bible1: "We ask you, brothers, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our assembling with him, not to be shaken out of your minds suddenly, or to be alarmed either by a "spirit,“or by an oral statement, or by a letter allegedly from us to the effect that the day of the Lord is at hand. Let no one deceive you in any way. For unless the apostasy comes first and the lawless one is revealed, the one doomed to perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god and object of worship, so as to seat himself in the temple of God, claiming that he is a god-- do you not recall that while I was still with you I told you these things?” 2 Thes 2:1-5
If Christians are going to be gone from the earth for 7 years already, why would Paul urge them to be able to recognize the Day of the Lord? In fact, Paul says that “unless the apostasy comes first”, it shall not be the end.
:bible1: “Indeed, we tell you this, on the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will surely not precede those who have fallen asleep.” 1 Thes 4:15
So Christians are left until “the coming of the Lord”. If this is not the Second Coming, which one is it?
:bible1: “Remember the word I spoke to you, ‘No slave is greater than his master.’ If they persecuted me, they will also persecute you.” John 15:20
The tribulation precedes the Second Coming of Christ, and precedes His Judgment. The suffering that this world will go through will come at the hands of the anti-Christ. Christians have been persecuted by the enemies of God throughout history. Why would it be any different at the end of time?
Look at the context of the second chapter of 2 Thessalonians:
:bible1: "We ask you, brothers, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our assembling with him, not to be shaken out of your minds suddenly, or to be alarmed either by a "spirit,“or by an oral statement, or by a letter allegedly from us to the effect that the day of the Lord is at hand. Let no one deceive you in any way. For unless the apostasy comes first and the lawless one is revealed, the one doomed to perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god and object of worship, so as to seat himself in the temple of God, claiming that he is a god-- do you not recall that while I was still with you I told you these things?” 2 Thes 2:1-5
If Christians are going to be gone from the earth for 7 years already, why would Paul urge them to be able to recognize the Day of the Lord? In fact, Paul says that “unless the apostasy comes first”, it shall not be the end.
Again, let’s look at the verse preceding this quote:
:bible1: “Indeed, we tell you this, on the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will surely not precede those who have fallen asleep.” 1 Thes 4:15
So Christians are left until “the coming of the Lord”. If this is not the Second Coming, which one is it?
Indeed, Christ will save us from God’s wrath at the destruction of this world, and bring us to the fullness of life in the New Heavens and the New Earth. But Christ has never, and will not, save us from persecution, which He Himself suffered at the hands of the ungodly.
:bible1: “Remember the word I spoke to you, ‘No slave is greater than his master.’ If they persecuted me, they will also persecute you.” John 15:20
The tribulation precedes the Second Coming of Christ, and precedes His Judgment. The suffering that this world will go through will come at the hands of the anti-Christ. Christians have been persecuted by the enemies of God throughout history. Why would it be any different at the end of time?
And you as well.
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excatholic
Guest
How do you interpret it? Sorry to answer a question with question but I feel that you already have an answer don’t you. I think it pertains to a rature because when Jesus sets foot on the planet there are many people left on it.
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Dr.Colossus
Guest
What most people aren’t clear on is that the Church accepts the idea of the faithful being “called up” or taken away. This definition of the Rapture (though we don’t call it that) is ok. What the Church rejects is the notion that this will happen before the Second Coming of the Lord, or that the reason for this rapture is to spare the faithful from suffering.
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Tantum_ergo
Guest
Absolutely.
The whole idea of rescuing the faithful from suffering smacks of gnosticism, which has never been completely eradicated.
“The chosen”, the few, the informed, the “real Christians”, will somehow be “lifted up” leaving the majority of the people on earth to suffer.
And this accords with Christian doctrine? Not hardly. For one thing, God doesn’t need to make a sort of “cameo appearance” while the “raptured” are given the great glory of being PROVED to be oh-so-worthy of heaven. I believe that scripture tells us that AT THE FINAL JUDGMENT IN THE SECOND COMING all our sins and all our good deeds will be revealed to EVERYBODY. Hmmm, so these raptured folks get a two-fer?
And if “the road to heaven is narrow, and FEW achieve it”, how explain the “two women will be grinding, one will be taken, one will be left”. Hmmm, it seems like this rapture is more a 50/50 lotto, doesn’t it? One would expect a much smaller percentage of people being judged WORTHY FOR IMMEDIATE HEAVEN. . .after all, if Jesus Himself comes to “getcha”, you sure aren’t going to be packed off to Purgatory, you’re in, bro. No need for any kind of spiritual purification. In these times where we see more and more CINO Christians, somehow there’s going to be this HUGE influx of Christians who are, so to speak, holier-than-the-Pope, who just get a “get into heaven free” pass?
And then the REST of humanity, excatholic, is going to be tortured for 7 years, and supposedly while there’s still LOTS of people to be “tribulation saints”, billions more will not only suffer unspeakable torments but still reject God. What a cosmic example of dualism where the anti-Christ/ Satan is given such great billing. Sure, he’s into the fiery lake at the end, but he is given a back-handed credit for taking so many with him, isn’t he?
Sorry, the 19th century “rapture” is just too full of holes.
C
Church_Militant
Guest
Hey Ex!
You still runnin’ all over this board? I’ll say this, these folks are much more tolerant than a Prot board that I got “cooled” form last week for posting stuff no worse than you are. I’m glad though because it gives us a chance to really talk.
Don’t you ever read anything about the early church fathers, like Ignatius of Antioch & all the rest? I have, & there is no such teaching in their writings…& they were very heavily interested in the Second Coming.
Y’know…Catholics enjoy the authority of the Church to help us stay true to christian Doctrine & practice. (See 1st Timothy 3:15. The Bible says that “the pillar and ground of the truth” is the church…not the Bible. regardless of what all your Protestant buddies tell you…they just plain ignore that passage…and many others as well. I did…they just didn’t fit in w/ what the Southern Baptists & Assemblies of God were teaching. I mean, they just never have a consistent & Biblical answer for “simple” things like the Eucharist in John 6, Mark 14:22-24,
Matthew 26:26-28,
Luke 22:17-20, Luke 24 :30-35, 1 Corinthians 10:14-17, &
1 Corinthinans 11:23-29. That’s most of the context on that topic, but consider than even John the Baptist called Jesus “The lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world”. That lamb of atonement was killed & eaten as part of the passover…the type & symbolism shouldn’t be lost on you…you know that Bible too well.
The passages in the NT are clear…one of the things that really brings it home for me is 1 Corinthinans 11:23-29 because Paul says that if we take communion while in grave sin we become “guilty of the body and blood of the lord”…That is not symbolic language at all. Example: If this
is a symbol of me. You can abuse this symbol to your heart’s content and never become guilty of my body and blood. But were you to abuse me by stabbing me or something (not that you really would 
) then you would be guilty of my body and blood because I was really present and you did it to me. My point is …it’s impossible to become guilty of His body and blood…unless it’s really there to begin with…
That just pretty much tells me that what the Catholic Church teaches about communion is real, & the Protestant position is not scripturally accurate. Besides…Acts says that the early church met on the first day of the week for the Lord’s Supper…that means every Sunday…yet some our of our Prot friends are lucky to have communion once a month, or even once a year. That makes no sense Biblically.
I feel like that the Catholic belief in the Real Presence is one of the most compelling arguments for being Catholic. It’s so beautifully Biblical…& if we are right, then we have been for over 2,000 years…and all 33,830 plus non-Catholic denominations are cheating themselves out of one of greatest miracles in all of Christianity; and it’s a cryin’ shame.
Well, I love ya brother, so don’t get lost.
I’m C.M. and we’ll leave the light on for ya!
You still runnin’ all over this board? I’ll say this, these folks are much more tolerant than a Prot board that I got “cooled” form last week for posting stuff no worse than you are. I’m glad though because it gives us a chance to really talk.
Don’t you ever read anything about the early church fathers, like Ignatius of Antioch & all the rest? I have, & there is no such teaching in their writings…& they were very heavily interested in the Second Coming.
Y’know…Catholics enjoy the authority of the Church to help us stay true to christian Doctrine & practice. (See 1st Timothy 3:15. The Bible says that “the pillar and ground of the truth” is the church…not the Bible. regardless of what all your Protestant buddies tell you…they just plain ignore that passage…and many others as well. I did…they just didn’t fit in w/ what the Southern Baptists & Assemblies of God were teaching. I mean, they just never have a consistent & Biblical answer for “simple” things like the Eucharist in John 6, Mark 14:22-24,
Matthew 26:26-28,
Luke 22:17-20, Luke 24 :30-35, 1 Corinthians 10:14-17, &
1 Corinthinans 11:23-29. That’s most of the context on that topic, but consider than even John the Baptist called Jesus “The lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world”. That lamb of atonement was killed & eaten as part of the passover…the type & symbolism shouldn’t be lost on you…you know that Bible too well.
The passages in the NT are clear…one of the things that really brings it home for me is 1 Corinthinans 11:23-29 because Paul says that if we take communion while in grave sin we become “guilty of the body and blood of the lord”…That is not symbolic language at all. Example: If this
is a symbol of me. You can abuse this symbol to your heart’s content and never become guilty of my body and blood. But were you to abuse me by stabbing me or something (not that you really would ) then you would be guilty of my body and blood because I was really present and you did it to me. My point is …it’s impossible to become guilty of His body and blood…unless it’s really there to begin with…That just pretty much tells me that what the Catholic Church teaches about communion is real, & the Protestant position is not scripturally accurate. Besides…Acts says that the early church met on the first day of the week for the Lord’s Supper…that means every Sunday…yet some our of our Prot friends are lucky to have communion once a month, or even once a year. That makes no sense Biblically.
I feel like that the Catholic belief in the Real Presence is one of the most compelling arguments for being Catholic. It’s so beautifully Biblical…& if we are right, then we have been for over 2,000 years…and all 33,830 plus non-Catholic denominations are cheating themselves out of one of greatest miracles in all of Christianity; and it’s a cryin’ shame.
Well, I love ya brother, so don’t get lost.
I’m C.M. and we’ll leave the light on for ya!
P
ppcpilot
Guest
Thanks for the clarification…I always thought of the rapture idea as silly. It makes for a good movie, though!
D
Dr.Colossus
Guest
The only “end times” movie I’ve seen was Omega Code. I thought that one was awful, LOL.
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