Rapture & Revelation

  • Thread starter Thread starter icamay
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
I

icamay

Guest
As I’m progressing down this road toward Catholicism, I’m (expectedly) hitting a few roadbumps along the way. I’m grateful that my husband is away at training (he and his family are Catholic, mine is not) so that I can truly walk this path without undue influence. That being said, I’m hitting some obstacles that I need help with.

A brief background - I grew up in rural Missouri, very near the home of the Assemblies of God and Pentecostal movements. This has had a great influence on my family’s belief system. I’m slowly breaking them in to my studying of Catholicism (they took it pretty hard when I opted to be baptized Presbyterian instead of anything fundamental or even evangelical), and I started with my two most “liberal” (relatively speaking) aunts first. They are very open to it, but one conversation ended up going in this direction:

Aunt: So what else do you like about this church?
Me: I really enjoy that the teachings focus on God’s love and mercy, and the life and teachings of Christ. I feel like I grew up hearing too much about the second coming of Christ and the rapture and not enough about His mercies.
Aunt: Wait. They aren’t preparing you for the rapture?
Me: Well, Aunt __, to be honest, I don’t believe in the same theology about the rapture that you do.
Aunt: But honey, I want you to be taken during the rapture…
Me: Um, Aunt __, I just don’t think it happens like that.
Aunt: …it’s very important that you understand how to prepare for the second coming of Christ!
Me: Aunt __, I am preparing, in my every day life. I believe that if I live in a Christian manner and follow Christ’s teachings, there is no reason to worry about the “end of times”. This is why I’m trying to find His true church and what He wants for me.
Aunt: I get that, honey, but I think it’s a church’s responsibility to prepare us for the rapture!

I feel like we’re speaking two different languages here.

So I guess my question is twofold:
What is the Church’s position on the Book of Revelations?
Is there a “best way” to approach this with Evangelicals and Fundamentalists (since that is my family and primary circle of friends)?
 
icamay said:
So I guess my question is twofold:
What is the Church’s position on the Book of Revelations?
Is there a “best way” to approach this with Evangelicals and Fundamentalists (since that is my family and primary circle of friends)?
Click to expand...
I think the best advice you could get would be from an expert who has been there. Have a read of this

amazon.com/gp/product/0385496591/ref=s9_simh_gw_p14_d5_i1?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=center-2&pf_rd_r=0BQ1H6KSVTC3YNXZX01W&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=470938631&pf_rd_i=507846
 
icamay said:
As I’m progressing down this road toward Catholicism, I’m (expectedly) hitting a few roadbumps along the way. I’m grateful that my husband is away at training (he and his family are Catholic, mine is not) so that I can truly walk this path without undue influence. That being said, I’m hitting some obstacles that I need help with.

A brief background - I grew up in rural Missouri, very near the home of the Assemblies of God and Pentecostal movements. This has had a great influence on my family’s belief system. I’m slowly breaking them in to my studying of Catholicism (they took it pretty hard when I opted to be baptized Presbyterian instead of anything fundamental or even evangelical), and I started with my two most “liberal” (relatively speaking) aunts first. They are very open to it, but one conversation ended up going in this direction:

Aunt: So what else do you like about this church?
Me: I really enjoy that the teachings focus on God’s love and mercy, and the life and teachings of Christ. I feel like I grew up hearing too much about the second coming of Christ and the rapture and not enough about His mercies.
Aunt: Wait. They aren’t preparing you for the rapture?
Me: Well, Aunt __, to be honest, I don’t believe in the same theology about the rapture that you do.
Aunt: But honey, I want you to be taken during the rapture…
Me: Um, Aunt __, I just don’t think it happens like that.
Aunt: …it’s very important that you understand how to prepare for the second coming of Christ!
Me: Aunt __, I am preparing, in my every day life. I believe that if I live in a Christian manner and follow Christ’s teachings, there is no reason to worry about the “end of times”. This is why I’m trying to find His true church and what He wants for me.
Aunt: I get that, honey, but I think it’s a church’s responsibility to prepare us for the rapture!

I feel like we’re speaking two different languages here.

So I guess my question is twofold:
What is the Church’s position on the Book of Revelations?
Is there a “best way” to approach this with Evangelicals and Fundamentalists (since that is my family and primary circle of friends)?
Click to expand...
Hi.

You may also this Catholic Answers tract on the Rapture very helpful in understanding the source of the “Rapture/tribulation” movement in some areas of Protestant Christianity. It sounds like your aunt believes in this type of end-times concept.

In a nutshell: It’s a very recent belief and is rather derivative with little Biblical support. Although the nature of the end times when all will return to Christ is sound, no human knows when this will happen, nor will Christ return twice as others believe.
 
The first thing that comes to mind when comparing the Rapture and the Book of Revelation is that the Rapture is not in the Book of Revelation. Those who support Rapture theology usually say that Revelation is an account of what happens after the Rapture.

Basically, Catholicism does not believe in Rapture Theology. The Bible tells us of the First Coming of Christ (when the Word took on flesh and dwelt among us) and the Second Coming of Christ (i.e., Judgment Day). But some people have interpreted a statement of St. Paul to mean that between the First and Second Coming is a kind of “1.5 Coming” of Christ, a secret coming when he will take all the righteous from the earth to save them from the upcoming persecutions and tribulations described in Revelation.

For a good overview of the origins of Rapture Theology and a Catholic response to it, I highly recommend listening to Dr. Brant Pitre’s lecture: Jesus and the End of Times (he covers the Rapture fairly early therein). This lecture likewise gives a good Catholic overview of Revelation.

catholic-productions.com/store/audio/pitre/jet_CD.html

Note that there are other versions of this lecture out there, but they are abbreviated and may not discuss the Rapture. The one I provided the link for is the full version.

Moreover, a good (and very “readable”) book on Revelation from a Catholic perspective is Coming Soon by Michael Barber:

amazon.com/Coming-Soon-Unlocking-Revelation-Applying/dp/193101826X/ref=sr_1_fkmr1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1300980273&sr=8-1-fkmr1

Coming Soon also comes highly recommended by Scott Hahn and Brant Pitre.

And speaking of Scott Hahn, I echo Fighting Fat’s recommendation of The Lamb’s Supper.
 
icamay said:
As I’m progressing down this road toward Catholicism, I’m (expectedly) hitting a few roadbumps along the way. I’m grateful that my husband is away at training (he and his family are Catholic, mine is not) so that I can truly walk this path without undue influence. That being said, I’m hitting some obstacles that I need help with.

Aunt: So what else do you like about this church?
Me: I really enjoy that the teachings focus on God’s love and mercy, and the life and teachings of Christ. I feel like I grew up hearing too much about the second coming of Christ and the rapture and not enough about His mercies.
Aunt: Wait. They aren’t preparing you for the rapture?
Me: Well, Aunt __, to be honest, I don’t believe in the same theology about the rapture that you do.
Aunt: But honey, I want you to be taken during the rapture…
Me: Um, Aunt __, I just don’t think it happens like that.
Aunt: …it’s very important that you understand how to prepare for the second coming of Christ!
Me: Aunt __, I am preparing, in my every day life. I believe that if I live in a Christian manner and follow Christ’s teachings, there is no reason to worry about the “end of times”. This is why I’m trying to find His true church and what He wants for me.
Aunt: I get that, honey, but I think it’s a church’s responsibility to prepare us for the rapture!

I feel like we’re speaking two different languages here.

So I guess my question is twofold:
What is the Church’s position on the Book of Revelations?
Is there a “best way” to approach this with Evangelicals and Fundamentalists (since that is my family and primary circle of friends)?
Click to expand...
Just my thoughts…We in the CC prepare for the 2nd coming of Christ by leading lives that Jesus wanted us to lead-lives of love, charity, obedience to God’s will, avoiding sin, in essence fulfilling the Gospels. And this is how the CC prepares her faithful.

By doing so, and with the regular practice of confessing our sins (through confession), it allows us to live a more Christ-like existence here on earth, growing in piety. In this way, we do not have to worry about the Rapture. We are prepared for it.

And this allows us to grow in our state of grace, from the Purgative state, to the illuminative and finally, to a unitive state of Grace, which Saints have achieved. So much so that some have received the wounds of Jesus on their bodies (the Stigmatics), some have incorrupted bodies (Bernadette of Lourdes, Teresa of Avila and many more).

newadvent.org/cathen/14254a.htm
 
There are many articles on the topic, most from a Protestant point of view, that tell the origins of this theory. You will want to sort through them to find a couple you feel would be most helpful to your aunt since she probably wouldn’t take the word of any Catholic author as authoritative: Origins of the Rapture teachings.

I had my own experience of it when I was in the Assemblies of God. One of the reasons I left them is I learned the theory was deduced by first making an assumption that Christ was going to return to take up believers and leave the unbelievers behind. Then, and only then, did those who wanted to believe this search through the Bible to find verses they decided would support their theory. A very bad way to do scriptural exegesis, btw. They took a lot of symbolic imagery and “interpreted” it according to their preconceived theory. This is called the “string of pearls” method of interpreting the Bible which no legitimate Bible scholar would use. In my experience it was used to tickle the ears (always a sign that something isn’t quite right with whatever is being promoted), put the fear of God into people (to make sure they tow the line) and keep them forever anxious about being left behind, instead of quietly and humbling trusting in God as we “take up our cross daily” and follow Christ.
 
There is a rapture in the Bible but it occurs AFTER the tribulation.

[BIBLEDRB]Matthew 24:29-31[/BIBLEDRB]

The capital-R “Rapture,” meaning a pre-tribulation rapture, is not a Christian concept. It comes from a sect called “dispensationalism” which denies that Jesus died for all sinners.
 
Cat_Herder said:
There is a rapture in the Bible but it occurs AFTER the tribulation.

[BIBLEDRB]Matthew 24:29-31[/BIBLEDRB]

The capital-R “Rapture,” meaning a pre-tribulation rapture, is not a Christian concept. It comes from a sect called “dispensationalism” which denies that Jesus died for all sinners.
Click to expand...
Precisely. It’s the absolute end of the world as we know it, to coin a phrase. There’s no “thousand year reign” between a supposed “rapture” and the end of time. To come to the conclusion that there is takes a lot of convoluted thinking and scriptural cherry-picking to make is “work”.
 
I find the rapture belief strange; im no bible scholar but what little i’ve read the christians at the end of the world will experience the tribulations of the general world and more specifically will be targets of hate by the antichrist in whatever form it takes. I think we have been fortunate to have for most of us in the west lived within a community that didn’t percecute us for our faith and often wonder if this rapture belief is to ease the minds of Christians not prepared to suffer and die for their faith like the first. Its such a dangerous doctrine as it could leave so many people unprepared for tribulation thinking they wont be there. In my mind they should be praying for the spiritual strength to cope with the trials comming at the end of the world should they live that long.

Also when you look at the end of times prophesies it could just as easily be interpreted like the dissapeared in brazil and other areas of the world where the authorities kill and dissappear those that oppose them. That an extremely authoritarian antichrist will just eliminate people like others have done before. They are lifted up ok ; in spirit to heaven.

I know its not well researched but its my thoughts on the matter.
I’ve always believed that its the ultimate honour to be a martyr for your faith not to escape any challenge. I would pray that should i be placed in this position I would have the spiritual strength to do so.

Love abd Respect
 
icamay said:
As I’m progressing down this road toward Catholicism, I’m (expectedly) hitting a few roadbumps along the way. I’m grateful that my husband is away at training (he and his family are Catholic, mine is not) so that I can truly walk this path without undue influence. That being said, I’m hitting some obstacles that I need help with.

A brief background - I grew up in rural Missouri, very near the home of the Assemblies of God and Pentecostal movements. This has had a great influence on my family’s belief system. I’m slowly breaking them in to my studying of Catholicism (they took it pretty hard when I opted to be baptized Presbyterian instead of anything fundamental or even evangelical), and I started with my two most “liberal” (relatively speaking) aunts first. They are very open to it, but one conversation ended up going in this direction:

Aunt: So what else do you like about this church?
Me: I really enjoy that the teachings focus on God’s love and mercy, and the life and teachings of Christ. I feel like I grew up hearing too much about the second coming of Christ and the rapture and not enough about His mercies.
Aunt: Wait. They aren’t preparing you for the rapture?
Me: Well, Aunt __, to be honest, I don’t believe in the same theology about the rapture that you do.
Aunt: But honey, I want you to be taken during the rapture…
Me: Um, Aunt __, I just don’t think it happens like that.
Aunt: …it’s very important that you understand how to prepare for the second coming of Christ!
Me: Aunt __, I am preparing, in my every day life. I believe that if I live in a Christian manner and follow Christ’s teachings, there is no reason to worry about the “end of times”. This is why I’m trying to find His true church and what He wants for me.
Aunt: I get that, honey, but I think it’s a church’s responsibility to prepare us for the rapture!

I feel like we’re speaking two different languages here.

So I guess my question is twofold:
What is the Church’s position on the Book of Revelations?
Is there a “best way” to approach this with Evangelicals and Fundamentalists (since that is my family and primary circle of friends)?
Click to expand...
Tell her the Rapture was not believed until the 1800’s.

This means that Jesus, nor His Apostles, nor the Church Fathers, nor the Orthodox Bishops, nor the Protestant Reformers taught the Rapture.

The theology is based on a few vague and out-of-context verses. BUT, I do not know much about the Second Coming so there is really nothing I can say other than a Protestant told me what I just told you about its history, or lack thereof. If a Protestant rejects a Protestant teaching, then you KNOW there is something wrong with it. (Some Protestants do believe things like the Body and Blood in the Holy Eucharist. I am talking about the teachings that are non-Catholic but still believed by Christians, like the Rapture and Faith Alone.)

This probably helps you very little.
 
Della said:
Precisely. It’s the absolute end of the world as we know it, to coin a phrase. There’s no “thousand year reign” between a supposed “rapture” and the end of time. To come to the conclusion that there is takes a lot of convoluted thinking and scriptural cherry-picking to make is “work”.
Click to expand...
Or it all makes sense and “works” when you include partially hardened Israel in their own end-times prophecy. To take them out of their own prophecies takes a lot of convoluted thinking and scriptural cherry-picking to make it “work”.
thirddec said:
I find the rapture belief strange;…
Click to expand...
Again, try putting “Israel” back in their prophecy…
 
Lev23 said:
Or it all makes sense and “works” when you include partially hardened Israel in their own end-times prophecy. To take them out of their own prophecies takes a lot of convoluted thinking and scriptural cherry-picking to make it “work”.

Again, try putting “Israel” back in their prophecy…
Click to expand...
There is no tribulational anti-Semitic holocaust in the Book of Revelation. The only thing that the NT says about the Jews is that their hearts will be hardened until the Gentiles have come into the Church and then they will become Christians.

See also: Five Weak Spots of the Rapture
 
icamay said:
Aunt: But honey, I want you to be taken during the rapture…
Click to expand...
Articles Explaining & Debunking the Rapture – A False Tradition of Protestant Men

**Raptured or Not? **
**A Catholic Understanding **
By Michael D. Guinan, O.F.M., Ph.D.
americancatholic.org/Newsletters/CU/ac1005.asp

The Rapture
catholic.com/library/Rapture.asp

LaHaying the Rapture on Thick
By Carl Olson
envoymagazine.com/backissues/5.3/rapture.htm

Waiting to Be Raptured - Dispensationalist Thought in America
By Carl E. Olson
catholic.com/thisrock/1999/9904fea1.asp
 
One very good source no one seems to have mentioned is…

Beginning Apologetics 8
Code: 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           http://shop.catholicapologetics.com/images/12967161890212109125448.png
  • Item #: BA-8
    Code: 
                                                                                                                  Beginning Apologetics 8: How to Explain and Defend the End Times: What  Catholics believe about the Second Coming, the Rapture, Heaven, Hell,  Purgatory, and Indulgences. (40 pages, $5.95)  
                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                 Also there is John Martignoni's excellent material that is FREE from the [Bible Christian Society.](http://www.biblechristiansociety.com/)
The Rapture and the Bible Bible study notes and he also has a free MP3 download called,
The Rapture and the Bible
What will really happen on "The Last Day"
 
icamay said:
As I’m progressing down this road toward Catholicism, I’m (expectedly) hitting a few roadbumps along the way. I’m grateful that my husband is away at training (he and his family are Catholic, mine is not) so that I can truly walk this path without undue influence. That being said, I’m hitting some obstacles that I need help with.

A brief background - I grew up in rural Missouri, very near the home of the Assemblies of God and Pentecostal movements. This has had a great influence on my family’s belief system. I’m slowly breaking them in to my studying of Catholicism (they took it pretty hard when I opted to be baptized Presbyterian instead of anything fundamental or even evangelical), and I started with my two most “liberal” (relatively speaking) aunts first. They are very open to it, but one conversation ended up going in this direction:

Aunt: So what else do you like about this church?
Me: I really enjoy that the teachings focus on God’s love and mercy, and the life and teachings of Christ. I feel like I grew up hearing too much about the second coming of Christ and the rapture and not enough about His mercies.
Aunt: Wait. They aren’t preparing you for the rapture?
Me: Well, Aunt __, to be honest, I don’t believe in the same theology about the rapture that you do.
Aunt: But honey, I want you to be taken during the rapture…
Me: Um, Aunt __, I just don’t think it happens like that.
Aunt: …it’s very important that you understand how to prepare for the second coming of Christ!
Me: Aunt __, I am preparing, in my every day life. I believe that if I live in a Christian manner and follow Christ’s teachings, there is no reason to worry about the “end of times”. This is why I’m trying to find His true church and what He wants for me.
Aunt: I get that, honey, but I think it’s a church’s responsibility to prepare us for the rapture!

I feel like we’re speaking two different languages here.

So I guess my question is twofold:
What is the Church’s position on the Book of Revelations?
Is there a “best way” to approach this with Evangelicals and Fundamentalists (since that is my family and primary circle of friends)?
Click to expand...
Continue on your journey get good catholic reading sources stay with sacred scripture and tell your aunt that the scripture say that the Lord shall descend with a shout that doesn’t sound very secret to me .Let me say the Church does not teach a secret rapture The Church teaches and scripture teaches a second coming and it is only going to happen once please get into a good rcia program that upholds the magisterium of the church.
 
So I guess my question is twofold:
What is the Church’s position on the Book of Revelations?
Is there a “best way” to approach this with Evangelicals and Fundamentalists (since that is my family and primary circle of friends)?
Click to expand...
Hello

Well 1st of all welcome to the faith I been listing to a Catholic Apologist on the Rapture and its roots I will share the link with you and any one else thats is interested. Its a real fun and educational class of what Catholics believe. If you have Itunes you can download the podcast for free just search for James Dobbins. Hopes this helps.

P.s Everyday at Mass we pray for the second coming :gopray2:

yorked.podomatic.com/
 
Cat_Herder said:
There is no tribulational anti-Semitic holocaust in the Book of Revelation. The only thing that the NT says about the Jews is that their hearts will be hardened until the Gentiles have come into the Church and then they will become Christians.

See also: Five Weak Spots of the Rapture
Click to expand...
Those who hold to a pre-trib rapture are being accused on this thread of cherry picking scripture while you give a perfect example of doing so yourself.

Last days prophecies are in the OT, as well as the NT. The nations treatment of Israel can be found in the OT prophecy. In the NT, especially in Romans 11, is that there is a remnant of Israel chosen by grace, not works. Hardened Israel has not stumbled so as to fall beyond recovery. But their transgression means riches for the gentiles, or nations. Hardened Israel will have the godlessness and their sins taken away from them when the deliverer(Jesus Christ) will come from Zion. Then ALL Israel will be saved. Very prophetic indeed. In the OT prophecies, the land and people of Israel are restored by their messiah.
 
Church_Militant said:
Code: 
 What will really happen on "The Last Day"
Click to expand...
There are many prophetic events that lead up to the last day. OT prophecies mention Israel, what we know now as “hardened Israel”, and the nations(gentiles) actions towards them. Revelation mentions the 144,000 servants of Israel during this time. Matthew 25 mentions the sheep and goats judgement on the nations on how they all treated Jesus’ “brothers”. So how does one come to the conclusion that either hardened Israel or the 144,000 means “Church”(which is Jew and gentile made one new man, equal in Jesus Christ).
 
The problem, Lev23 is that all the ideas about the end times are based on interpreting obscure passages of the Bible, and therefore are just so much speculation. They cannot stand up against Jesus’ own words that no one knows the day or hour of his return. Stringing Bible verses together and interpreting them to fit the one’s preconceived theor(ies) may be fun, but it’s dangerous if taken seriously. We are to always be ready for Jesus’ return, not waste time in endless speculations and specious interpretations that ultimately don’t mean a thing.

The book of Revelation is not a plaything nor can we interpret it to please our preconceived ideas. It tells us about much deeper things than mere timetables for future events. St. John wasn’t interested in such things. He was telling us that God will triumph over the plots of men and the evil of Satan and we’d better be doing as God wishes or else. That’s it in a nutshell. Idle speculations (for that is what all the end time theories are) plays into the enemy’s hands for he loves that we should waste time and energy on useless things rather than on obeying God and becoming holy. That holds true for all Christians of every type and persuasion.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top