Rapture & Revelation

[Cat_Herder]

Those who hold to a pre-trib rapture are being accused on this thread of cherry picking scripture while you give a perfect example of doing so yourself.

Last days prophecies are in the OT, as well as the NT. The nations treatment of Israel can be found in the OT prophecy. In the NT, especially in Romans 11, is that there is a remnant of Israel chosen by grace, not works. Hardened Israel has not stumbled so as to fall beyond recovery. But their transgression means riches for the gentiles, or nations. Hardened Israel will have the godlessness and their sins taken away from them when the deliverer(Jesus Christ) will come from Zion. Then ALL Israel will be saved. Very prophetic indeed. In the OT prophecies, the land and people of Israel are restored by their messiah.

Tell us what happens to the two-thirds of the Jews during the Tribulation in pre-trib rapture theory and reconcile that with your statement about “all Israel” being saved.

You, my friend, cannot do that because you have bought into false prophecy. All Israel will be saved, therefore no pre-trib rapture.

(WARNING: Don’t click the link if you are sensitive to anti-Semitism. I am. It turns my stomach to see that garbage.)

 

[Lev23]

Tell us what happens to the two-thirds of the Jews during the Tribulation in pre-trib rapture theory and reconcile that with your statement about “all Israel” being saved.

You, my friend, cannot do that because you have bought into false prophecy. All Israel will be saved, therefore no pre-trib rapture.

(WARNING: Don’t click the link if you are sensitive to anti-Semitism. I am. It turns my stomach to see that garbage.)

Weak point here. I assume you are referring to Zechariah 13:8, where God tells the sad truth of how the numbers pan out.

**Zechariah 13:8
In the whole land,” declares the LORD,
“two-thirds will be struck down and perish;
yet one-third will be left in it. **

Your problem is not with me, or even La Haye, but with the prophecies of God themselves. Whether one wants to apply prophecies like Zechariah 13:8 in the past or the future, it is still the word of God. And to show disgust with those who point to prophecies like Zechariah 13:8 is confusing. To those that teach Zechariah 13:8(or any other prophecies that described horrible things done to Israel) happened in the past, do you post or blog how anti-sememitic they are?

All Israel will be saved when the deliverer will come from Zion. Before then, there are alot of events that prophetically take place before the second coming of Christ to Israel. God always gave fair warning to His people through prophecies by listing unsettling events. To point prophecies out like these to Jews is not being anti-semitic, but telling them of God’s warning that they need to look to Him and Him only the way He wants them to seek and find Him. The alternative is they will be left to their own ways and what the nations have in store for them. Today, whether in the land of Israel or not, the way they need to seek and find Him is by His one and only Son, Jesus Christ. And those of Israel that are alive at the time of Jesus’ second coming to Israel will look to God by His one and only Son.

See how prophecy works? See my friend, I did do what you asked of me.

Another tactic to those trying to debunk the pre-tribulation rapture of the church is that Jews are told they must go back to Israel so our “blood thirsty prophecies” can become a reality, by having them possibly become one of the two-thirds killed. False. Totally false.

When sharing the gospel of Christ with a Jew, if propheices like Zechariah 13:8 are shown, it is of course to put their faith in Christ and be a part of the church. Some either stay in the situation and places they were in before they came to Christ, or some go to other nations, including Israel, to give the gospel to all, especially their fellow Jews who are not part of the Church.

As far as I can see it, the “anti-semitism by prophecy” angle used to debunk the pre-tribulation rapture of the church is weak and doesn’t hold up.

 

[Cat_Herder]

Weak point here. I assume you are referring to Zechariah 13:8, where God tells the sad truth of how the numbers pan out.

The numbers with regard to who? You say it describes the Jews. Why?

 

[eddy714]

Today, whether in the land of Israel or not, the way they need to seek and find Him is by His one and only Son, Jesus Christ. And those of Israel that are alive at the time of Jesus’ second coming to Israel will look to God by His one and only Son.

Hey brethren,

I don’t know if you noticed but the Jews are still waiting for there savior .

Obviously all the signs that the prophets gave to Israel didn’t really help out. Jesus purpose was to bring the Israelites into the new covenant and for them to make disciples out of everyone “meaning the gentiles”.

And if they where seeking Jesus they most likely wouldn’t hang on to there Jews belief and would convert to Christianity.

Its hard enough for Christians non Catholic to convert in to what Jesus has established in the Catholic Church .

But will pray for everyone.

I posted a link in my previous post wth some podcast that will explain much better I hope you can listen to them.

God Bless

 

[Lev23]

The numbers with regard to who? You say it describes the Jews. Why?

Who else lived “in the whole land”?

 

[Lev23]

Hey brethren,

I don’t know if you noticed but the Jews are still waiting for there savior .

Obviously all the signs that the prophets gave to Israel didn’t really help out. Jesus purpose was to bring the Israelites into the new covenant and for them to make disciples out of everyone “meaning the gentiles”.

And if they where seeking Jesus they most likely wouldn’t hang on to there Jews belief and would convert to Christianity.

Its hard enough for Christians non Catholic to convert in to what Jesus has established in the Catholic Church .

But will pray for everyone.

I posted a link in my previous post wth some podcast that will explain much better I hope you can listen to them.

God Bless

Here we go again. Lets take a look at this comment of yours, especially in light of your gleaning this from a podcast-

Obviously all the signs that the prophets gave to Israel didn’t really help out. Jesus purpose was to bring the Israelites into the new covenant and for them to make disciples out of everyone “meaning the gentiles”.

And if they where seeking Jesus they most likely wouldn’t hang on to there Jews belief and would convert to Christianity.

Concerning those of Israel that you speak of who are hardened in part-
Romans 11:12
But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their fullness bring!

Concerning your quote-

I don’t know if you noticed but the Jews are still waiting for there savior .

Romans 11:13-15
I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I make much of my ministry in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them. For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?

 

[Cat_Herder]

Who else lived “in the whole land”?

It is Strongs H776, which is a very broad term that means the whole world.

So, I’ll ask you again… Why do you think God wills the Jews alone to suffer?

[BIBLEDRB]Romans 2:5-11[/BIBLEDRB]

 

[Lev23]

It is Strongs H776, which is a very broad term that means the whole world.

So, I’ll ask you again… Why do you think God wills the Jews alone to suffer?

[BIBLEDRB]Romans 2:5-11[/BIBLEDRB]

It can also mean Israel or Jerusalem. Context, context, context. Zechariah 14:9 uses these phrase “the whole earth” when describing the extent of the Lords rule from Jerusalem. Verse 10 uses “the whole land” for, …guess what?

**Zechariah 14:9-10
The LORD will be king over the whole earth. On that day there will be one LORD, and his name the only name.

The whole land, from Geba to Rimmon, south of Jerusalem, will become like the Arabah. But Jerusalem will be raised up and remain in its place, from the Benjamin Gate to the site of the First Gate, to the Corner Gate, and from the Tower of Hananel to the royal winepresses. It will be inhabited; never again will it be destroyed. Jerusalem will be secure.**

BTW, the last verse here flys in the face of those who say the city destroyed in Revelation 18 is Jerusalem.

Lastly, I am not saying the the Jews alone will suffer at that time. It is just that the Jews are spoken of exclusively concerning the prophecy of Zecharian 13:8. Wheter God “wills” it is a question you have to answer. The prophecy just list how the numbers pan out. I have no answer for the nations perpetual hatred for the Israel.

 

[Cat_Herder]

It can also mean Israel or Jerusalem. Context, context, context.

Context you say? Who decides what the “context” is? (Not you or me.)

[BIBLEDRB]2 Peter 1:20[/BIBLEDRB]

There is NOTHING in Scripture to suggest that there will be some kind of tribulational holocaust against the Jews. As you admit, Zech 14:9 uses the same word to describe the whole earth and other passages in the same book state that Jerusalem will NOT be destroyed.

Go take an honest look at the Book of Revelation. If this so-called judgment against the Jews is supposed to take place in the future, then why isn’t it even mentioned there? There is NO plague or tribulation that falls on the Jews alone. None. God’s wrath is shown as poured out on the whole world.

The only way you can arrive at the dispensational interpretation is to pick up the Bible with an agenda. Specifically, a ravenously anti-Semitic agenda in which God’s first covenant people are reduced to pawns in some end-times chess game in which the only people who win are the ones who publish Left Behind Five… THOUSAND. The movie! The video game! The breakfast cereal! The wind-up Global Community tank! The Tribulation Force flamethrower! The talking Tim LaHaye doll! Pull the string and he blabs about how you can chicken out from carrying your cross each day by believing in the Rapture!

[BIBLEDRB]Mark 11:15-17[/BIBLEDRB]