RAPTURE the end times prophecy that leaves the bible behind

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Bre6785 . . .
i was convinced that anti Christ (Nero) had already fulfilled his roll.
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You are correct in this assertion.

But that is only one dimension of “the coming of the Lord”.

I had this same discussion with someone else who I gave Currie’s book to (many years ago).

I am going to go and dig up the book (later. I might not be able to right now for reasons I won’t get into here) and attempt to find some of Currie’s quotes regarding this (as I had to do for my friend too, years ago).

Then I will try to post Currie’s comments directly from the book.

I hope that will be helpful.

(Currie is excellent though and you are onto some great sources).
 
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Continued . . .

Currie is excellent though and you are onto some great sources. It is just hard to think in these multi-dimensional aspects because we are not taught to do that anymore.

Once you begin seeing Scripture that way, you will think you are seeing amazing new insights.

But then you will read the Fathers, or segments of the CCC or the older Catechism of the Council of Trent, and realize these “new insights” have already long ago been put forth.

I will also try to dig up a free Dr. Pitre audio on the Olivet Discourse which illustrates those layers or dimensions.

But you have to listen to it several times otherwise important things will blow right by you (at least that was how it was for me). Every time I listened to it, I took significantly more away.
 
Because when I was finished reading it, i was convinced that anti Christ (Nero) had already fulfilled his roll. Hence my relief. But then, reading and listening to Desmond makes me believe he is still to come.
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It’s BOTH.

Here is an example . . . .

Remember the “Coming of the Lord” in one sense is the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem.

In another sense the “Coming of the Lord” is the destruction of MY Temple my body. (When I die).
1st CORINTHIANS 3:16 Do you not know that you are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit dwells in you?
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And in another sense the “Coming of the Lord” is the destruction of the WORLD at the end of time (and we receive “a new Heavens and a new earth”).

Which dimension do you affirm?

Well if you are Catholic you just affirm ALL of them. (Which is PART of the reason WHY for example, we have so much of a FULLER Gospel than say, a lot of Bible-only Christian “rapturists”.)

Anyway. I already found my Currie book and grabbed ONE quote (there are several others but for now i will just include that ONE) of his talking about multi-dimensional interpreting.

I will try to get to a computer (instead of my Android) and post it soon.
 
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Okay, so, are we still looking for the rebuilding of the temple? I know rapturist are. In fact I know a group that has even come to a feed yard near where I live to find “the perfect red calf”! Also, the way I understood the book, the Jewish people of today aren’t even the true bloodline of the old testament Jew, because they were all killed with the destruction of Jerusalem by Roman Empire under Vespasian?
 
Bre6785. At a computer now (not an android).

Here is the cover of the Currie book I am quoting from (in case there are different versions and page discrepancies, I wanted to let you know what book I am quoting from).

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Any emphasis of Currie will be mine.

Here is a set of salient quotes (from pages 62 and 63) . . . .

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So we can observe that when a prophecy is fulfilled, that fulfilling event may itself become a prophecy, pointing to another, more final and complete fulfillment. Here is our third ground rule: An event can be a prophecy of a still-future, final fulfillment, and when it is, we should consider the entire historical context of the events to gain a fuller understanding (GR3). To put it succinctly, history can become prophecy.
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St. Thomas Aquinas enunciated this principle. He wrote that the “allegorical sense” of Scripture is a reading of the Bible that appreciates the fact that events and persons described can point to something beyond themselves and so build faith in us. For example, Adam is a type of Christ, while Eve is a type of Mary (SUM, 4). In his thought, even St. Thomas hearkened back to an earlier authority, St. Gregory. He wrote, “Scripture . . . . uses one and the same discourse to tell history and reveal mystery” (SUM, 4).
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And also . . . .

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This ground rule also leads us to an important caveat. Although ninety-nine percent of all biblical prophecy has been fulfilled already, past events themselves can and do point to the final fulfillment of history when Christ returns.
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Then Currie goes on to use the antichrist for an illustration (an example you specifically brought up earlier) . . . .

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For example, antichrists have come (1 John 2:18) and will continue to come. Each of them foreshadows the one, final antichrist who will embody and perfect all of their evils. The events of the past can be imbued with meaning in the future by the God who is omnipotent and omniscient.
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Bre6785 . . .
Okay, so, are we still looking for the rebuilding of the temple?
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Too tough of a question for me. I just don’t know.

I think you are asking “will the Old Covenant Jewish Temple in Jerusalem some day be rebuilt?”

Is this correct?

And the answer is, the question is beyond what I would dare say. I must humbly bow out on that one.

I have heard great arguments either way. Listening to well-reasoned arguments on both sides I feel like BOTH have very good points.

I have not prayed specifically to God for insights on this and maybe in the future I will have a better idea. But for now? Not so much.

The whole Julian the Apostate’s attempt at re-building the Temple issue in the 300’s A.D. was fascinating.

Here I found some interesting quotes for historical insight (I know that isn’t what you were looking for though).

https://www.fisheaters.com/juliantemple.html

I suggest the late Giuseppe Ricciotti’s book on Julian if you are interested in that topic. I read it and thought the book was informative historically (but it won’t help much to answer your question I suspect).
 
Christ is the Temple, and his Body the Church. When Christ died, it tore the veil of the Holy of Holies, making the High Priest on Earth void… We now have a High Priest in heaven. The earthly temple was a type… and then the real One came. And in him, there is neither Jew or Gentile. No more covenant and sacrifices for a limited number of people.
 
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straykat . . .
Christ is the Temple
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Absolutely.

But there is still fulfilling to be done.

For example WE are “living stones” built into that Temple of Jesus’ Body.

Yet we STILL WILL get our Resurrected Glorified bodies in the future (there is MORE fulfillment left to be done. “he who began a good work in you, will bring it to completion on the day of the Lord”–Philippians 1:6. Notice there is “completion” that needs to be undertaken yet).

The question I think that is being asked is, “will God ever allow the Jews to re-build the earthly Temple?”

Some would say . . . “Well no. Jesus would not allow the Jewish people to have THAT element of confusion over the Temple concept.”

Other people would say . . . “Well yes. Jesus will eventually some day allow the Jewish people to have the Temple back transiently, only to USE that whole paradigm NOT for “millinarianism” but for some event to be associated with His final in-gathering of our Jewish brethren.”
 
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I don’t see why, since the purpose of the tabernacle/temple was to invite the presence of God…as well as sacrifice and the functions of priests. All three of which are fulfilled in Christ.

Jesus even calls himself the Temple… and challenges the Pharisees to destroy it… and he will raise it in three days.

One interesting thing lost in translation is the Gospel of John 1:14

And the Word became flesh
and made his dwelling among us,
and we saw his glory,
the glory as of the Father’s only Son,
full of grace and truth.

In the Greek, “made his dwelling” is actually ἐσκήνωσεν “tabernacled”. His incarnation was “tabernacling” among us.

edit: I guess my point is, what would be the point of a temple, when we have such an awesome one in Christ already?
 
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I don’t see why, since the purpose of the tabernacle/temple was to invite the presence of God…as well as sacrifice and the functions of priests. All three of which are fulfilled in Christ.
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Jesus even calls himself the Temple… and challenges the Pharisees to destroy it… and he will raise it in three days.
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You may be right on no future re-building of the Temple.

But just because you (or I) “don’t see why” isn’t a good enough reason that it would or would not occur.

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Jesus even calls himself the Temple
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I want to make it perfectly clear. I AFFIRM Jesus IS the Temple.

And I am not saying you are wrong on NO future Temple re-building. I am just saying I have heard good arguments on the “Yes” and the “No” ends of that question.
 
I don’t see why according to scripture, I mean. And I set forth why exactly I said that 🙂

And I’m not saying you don’t believe any of this. I’m posing my argument to hypothetical Jewish builders of a new temple… or deluded Christians (Zionists) who would support them.

Last but not least, I forgot to mention… is right after all of this Tabernacle stuff, we get John… heir to Zechariah and the symbol of the Levite Priesthood:

“Behold the lamb of God! Who takes away the sin of the world.”

The Gospel of John in general is replete with Jesus fulfilling all of these things I mentioned. He is the Temple, the Priest, and the Sacrifice all at once.
 
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Bre6785. I think earlier I said I would post Dr. Pitre’s free talk on the “Destruction of the Temple and the End of the World”

(You now have to sign up for it but it is free)

Go to . . . .
Proclaiming the Kingdom: The Gospel of Matthew
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(Here is the link)


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Then on the same page you will see . . . .
A Ten Lesson Audio Bible Study Course
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And below this you will see “Lessons”.

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Then go down to . . .

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The Destruction of the Temple and the End of the World: Matthew Chapters 23-25
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Click on “Listen” or off to the right “Download”. You have to listen to it several times. It is very deep but well worth it.

straykat. I’d be interested to hear what YOU think of this audio too.

I don’t think it will help answer the issue of IF the Temple will someday be re-built or not.

But it WILL give a pretty good template as to how to read some of these eschatological events in a multi-dimensional or layered manner.
 
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straykat . . .
edit: I guess my point is, what would be the point of a temple, when we have such an awesome one in Christ already?
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I can see why you would think that (and I have no criticism of your thoughts here).

But what if Jesus uses that rebuilt Temple . . . . in a way that we do not yet understand . . . to bring the Jewish people into Christianity?
 
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To do what there? The only purpose of the temple was sacrifice. It’s obscene to think we need more sacrifices.

If you just mean some gathering place, I wouldn’t call it a temple.

Allow me to use one of Paul’s famous lines to describe my thoughts…

“When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.”

So it goes with the Old Covenant Temple. It is one of the childish things… a mere type pointing to a real thing. The real thing came. 🙂
 
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To do what there?
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If I knew I would tell you.

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The only purpose of the temple was sacrifice.
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There were more purposes. The Temple was a microcosm of the cosmos.

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It’s obscene to think we need more sacrifices.
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Tell that to St. Paul.

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ROMANS 12:1 1 I appeal to you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship.
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That being said, we do not “need” animal sacrifices.

Animal sacrifices NEVER delivered.

They were teaching tools for Jesus’ work on Calvary. The Old Covenant sacrifices were foreshadowings for Jesus’ work.

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HEBREWS 10:1 1 For since the law has but a shadow of the good things to come instead of the true form of these realities, it can never, by the same sacrifices which are continually offered year after year, make perfect those who draw near.
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straykat on “childish things” quote . . .
So it goes with the Old Covenant Temple. It is one of the childish things… a mere type pointing to a real thing. The real thing came.
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You ignore the Old Testament Temple at your own harm.

By looking carefully and prayerfully at these “shadows” we can see things in the New Covenant that we may never would be able to see.

When Jesus was on the Road To Emmaus, he unpacked the Old Testament to give His own Disciples insights about Him.
 
I don’t ignore it. I look at what it points to. Big difference. I’m saying the same thing you just said.
 
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straykat. You might want to consider doing this study (I am deliberating it myself)

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The House of the Lord: A Biblical Theology of the Temple in the Old and New Testaments
 
I keep getting posts suspended for a moderating. I think because I’m talking about the Temple site and Muslims in it. Whatever. This is silly.
 
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straykat . . .
I don’t ignore it. I look at what it points to. Big difference. I’m saying the same thing you just said.
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Fair enough.

Let’s visit some more about it tomorrow. I am interested to hear what you have to say.

I enjoy this topic but I need some questions and different perspectives etc. to go deeper. Maybe you would not mind continuing this discussion?

In the meantime, try going to Dr. Smith’s site and getting his free outline on the Temple.

The House of the Lord: A Biblical Theology of the Temple in the Old and New Testaments


There might be things you find interesting (although the free handout is large-306 pages).

Keep up the good work
 
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