Rapture theory: please help!

[maryj]

I am in need of some immediate help with a problem. Going to try and make this as short as possible. My oldest and dearest friend called me last night to chat. I could tell that something was bothering her, so we talked for a long time before she actually brought this something up. About three years ago her husband had given me some tapes to watch, one was called"messages from heaven", basically he was trying to save me from the catholic church, you know the whole “whore of babylon thing”, we worship Mary, you know all the stand by’s. He had been raised catholic and had now found out about all the lies he had been told. I being the un-educated catholic that I was, kinda fell into it for awhile, doing a lot of questioning myself. Luckily for me I had an amazing priest to go to for answers to questions that I now see as absolutely the most “ignorant” questions I had ever asked. I also came here, to catholic answers, I have learned so much it is hard to put into words. So basically what started out as a shaking of my catholic foundation, in reality drew me even closer. And that is why I will now come here for help. All of the reading I have done, all of the studying about catholicism, all the reading of the Holy Scriptures, all of the praying has brought me to a place where I know I can defend my faith, I know I have “it” right. My friends husband has been church hopping for the last couple of years,he can’t exactly agree with everything that he is hearing in these churches. He has now settled into a Dispensationalists church. He studies the book of revelation almost to an obsession. When he is reading, or listening to tapes if one of his children makes any noise in the house he freaks out and starts screaming at them. He has ordered books and tapes that he is studying about how to get his brothers and sisters out of the catholic church before the rapture comes. He has no time for them(his family) since all he does is read about the rapture, go to evangalizing meeting, and yell a lot. My friend, who has two children, and one on the way was talking about setting up a savings account to start saving for the kids education, his reply “no need to worry about that, we’ll be gone from here before that happens.” She has tried to talk with him about this, but is overwhelmed by his Bible quoting, domineering ways. I have just mailed her my copy of Paul Thigpens “The rapture trap” a catholic response to the end times fever. We are hoping he does not intercept this book before she can get to it, since it is a catholic explanation, he’d probably throw it out before she could read it. I need some ideas, references, web sites, to give to her so she can educate herself first. She is a cradle catholic who has been drug around to different protestant churches for years. Not entirely sure how much she remembers about being Catholic. Any help would be greatly appreciated. and yes my next step is to send her here. God Bless you all. Please pray for them, hopefully on their journey home.

 

[mtk76]

I believe prayer is the most powerful thing you can offer your friend at this point, also asking for intercession from the saints perhaps especially The Apostle John who is believed by many to have written Revelation.

As for your friend’s husband it sounds as if he has gone a bit mad. Trying to decode Revelation is likely a waste of time and a sign of excessive pride because many have tried before and failed. It also could be a tool of the devil to alter ones focus and take away from the real message of Jesus and picking up ones own cross daily. The main thing I need to know about Revelation is that Jesus will come again in Glory and he is victorious and that is enough for me. A book you may enjoy is the Lamb’s Supper by Scott Hahn and it truly helped me appreciate The Mass in Revelation and all its imagery.

Peace
Mark

 

[evangelist]

The rapture could take anytime so be ready .
It is the caught up of those reals sons and daughter in Christ and those who are dead to meet Jesus .

 

[Della]

I sympathize with your friend. I know a gal whose husband is so deeply into Catholic apologetics that he has all but alienated his wife and children. He too orders them about and pushes his will on everyone. Men who act like this are using religion to get what they want. But, I think it’s particularly dangerous when the man has no authority to whom he has to answer, as in your friend’s husband’s case. I have no words of advise for that part of her dilemma, since I’m not a counselor, but I think she’d better get him into counseling, if he’d go.

When your friend comes here have her look at these articles right here on the Catholic Answers website: Dispensationalism.

A personal anecdote: When I was in the Assemblies of God, a Pentecostal sect that is heavily into the rapture and all that, we were told that Jesus was bound to return by 1988 (the reasons are too exhausting to explain here). I didn’t stick around the sect long enough to see if they were right (I was received into the Church Easter Vigil, 1987), but obviously, they were wrong. Jesus told us that no one knows the day or the hour of his return, and there is no passage in the Bible that supports the rapture theory as taught by dispensationalists. I’m truly surprised anyone still falls for this flawed idea, that has been proven false, time and time again, and not just by Catholics but by other reliable Protestant theologians, as well.

 

[myfavoritmartin]

The rapture could take anytime so be ready .
It is the caught up of those reals sons and daughter in Christ and those who are dead to meet Jesus .

Hi Ev, welcome aboard. I agree we should all be ready and live the life of having a personal relationship with Christ.

 

[mchale]

The rapture could take anytime so be ready .
It is the caught up of those reals sons and daughter in Christ and those who are dead to meet Jesus .

And? I never understand the obsession with the Rapture. Whether there is a rapture before the tribulation or not, it really is irrelevant to how we should live our lives as Christians. The Rapture could be next week and I might not live to see it. We need to live our lives ready to meet Christ at any time. Naturally though, that we can’t stop living our life because we might not be here in a month’s time. If I need to have children, I need to plan for their future regardless of whether that future ever arrives. The key is to never stop trusting in God.

–
Bill

 

[amills]

Is he aware of the history of some churches in the 1800s and obsessions with end times? Look at 1843 when William Miller pegged the day and then got it wrong. So he pegged it again for a year later and got it wrong again. Then claimed it was right just needed to be twisted a bit to fit saying it wasn’t actually the end but the start of investgational judgment. Perhaps he thinks this rapture thing is something new. I would point them to history.

 

[maryj]

I believe prayer is the most powerful thing you can offer your friend at this point, also asking for intercession from the saints perhaps especially The Apostle John who is believed by many to have written Revelation.

As for your friend’s husband it sounds as if he has gone a bit mad. Trying to decode Revelation is likely a waste of time and a sign of excessive pride because many have tried before and failed. It also could be a tool of the devil to alter ones focus and take away from the real message of Jesus and picking up ones own cross daily. The main thing I need to know about Revelation is that Jesus will come again in Glory and he is victorious and that is enough for me. A book you may enjoy is the Lamb’s Supper by Scott Hahn and it truly helped me appreciate The Mass in Revelation and all its imagery.

Peace
Mark

Doing this, but forgot about St. John the Apostle’s intercession. Thank you for the reminder. Read the book already it is wonderful!! I shall mention that to her also. thank you God Bless

 

[maryj]

The rapture could take anytime so be ready .
It is the caught up of those reals sons and daughter in Christ and those who are dead to meet Jesus .

Yup, she said he’s mentioning this “real sons and daughters” or “real believers”. Another thing that totally baffles me:whacky: . So non Biblical it floors me that people who claim to know the Bible still spout out (oops almost said something bad!!) such false doctrines. And by the way, Christ told us that no one knows the time, not even Him, only the Father knows. Obviously dispensationalists think Jesus is full of it.

 

[maryj]

Is he aware of the history of some churches in the 1800s and obsessions with end times? Look at 1843 when William Miller pegged the day and then got it wrong. So he pegged it again for a year later and got it wrong again. Then claimed it was right just needed to be twisted a bit to fit saying it wasn’t actually the end but the start of investgational judgment. Perhaps he thinks this rapture thing is something new. I would point them to history.

the book I sent her deals with the history of these theories going way back, even to the beginnings of our country in colonial times. I believe he does think that this is “new” thinking. Funny he really is a bright guy!

 

[NotWorthy]

The rapture could take anytime so be ready .
It is the caught up of those reals sons and daughter in Christ and those who are dead to meet Jesus .

Why should the Rapture make you any more ready than you should be already? I don’t understand the madness. We should be prepared to meet our Master tomorrow even without any Rapture.

P.S. In case of Rapture, I wish to be Left Behind!!!

 

[Texan_in_DC]

The rapture could take anytime so be ready .
It is the caught up of those reals sons and daughter in Christ and those who are dead to meet Jesus .

The Rapture

The word Rapture comes from the Greek for “caught up”. Paul uses it in 1 Thessalonians 4:17, the very first book of the New Testament: “Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up in the clouds together with them to meet the Lord in the air.” Sadly the Fundamental circles and many good Christians will take this one simple verse out of context, which can easily be done. By doing this anyone that reads this verse would indeed believe in the “Rapture” as taught by theses Fundamental circles and other Protestants.

“Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up in the clouds together with them to meet the Lord in the air.” With this vocabulary and scenario, Borrowed from the arrival (parousia) of the emperor, who had come to restore order to a troubled region, **Paul symbolically illustrates the Parousia of Jesus. Like the emperor, Jesus will be greeted at his arrival by those “caught up” in enthusiasm. Paul never intended his analogy with The Roman political scene to be taken literally, having Christians tiptoeing around on the clouds.
**
Like the word Anti-Christ, the word rapture is not found in the book or Revelation referring to Christians, but it has become a part of the eschatological vocabulary among the fundamental protestant groups. This Rapture theory was unheard of before the 20th century, and this again proves how important the infallibility of the Catholic Church is on matters of doctrines of faith.

It is these same Fundamental groups and other non-catholic Christians that accuse and attack the Church of preaching the traditions of men and not of the Teachings of Christ. Yet in a hypocritical way this is just what these Fundamentalist have done, starting a new teaching or theology of men that was not there prior to the 20th century.

 

[maryj]

I sympathize with your friend. I know a gal whose husband is so deeply into Catholic apologetics that he has all but alienated his wife and children. He too orders them about and pushes his will on everyone. Men who act like this are using religion to get what they want. But, I think it’s particularly dangerous when the man has no authority to whom he has to answer, as in your friend’s husband’s case. I have no words of advise for that part of her dilemma, since I’m not a counselor, but I think she’d better get him into counseling, if he’d go.

When your friend comes here have her look at these articles right here on the Catholic Answers website: Dispensationalism.

A personal anecdote: When I was in the Assemblies of God, a Pentecostal sect that is heavily into the rapture and all that, we were told that Jesus was bound to return by 1988 (the reasons are too exhausting to explain here). I didn’t stick around the sect long enough to see if they were right (I was received into the Church Easter Vigil, 1987), but obviously, they were wrong. Jesus told us that no one knows the day or the hour of his return, and there is no passage in the Bible that supports the rapture theory as taught by dispensationalists. I’m truly surprised anyone still falls for this flawed idea, that has been proven false, time and time again, and not just by Catholics but by other reliable Protestant theologians, as well.

She googled some of the authors he’s been reading yesterday and found references to Jim Jones, and other cult type groups. She did casually mention, although I think she was not too serious, that he needed a deprogramming. I linked her to just that page on catholic answers. Hoping he doesn’t intercept. Last thing, I think that she would have better luck quoting protestant theologians about this than Catholics. Remember he was catholic, almost the worst type of anti-catholic.So anyone have any info on where one would find Protestant theological info on debunking the rapture theory?

 

[maryj]

Quote-texan in D.C
Like the word Anti-Christ, the word rapture is not found in the book or Revelation referring to Christians, but it has become a part of the eschatological vocabulary among the fundamental protestant groups. This Rapture theory was unheard of before the 20th century, and this again proves how important the infallibility of the Catholic Church is on matters of doctrines of faith.

It is these same Fundamental groups and other non-catholic Christians that accuse and attack the Church of preaching the traditions of men and not of the Teachings of Christ. Yet in a hypocritical way this is just what these Fundamentalist have done, starting a new teaching or theology of men that was not there prior to the 20th century.

:clapping: excellent point, excellent point. I will definately remember this. See how smart you people are!!

 

[LilyM]

Simply tell your friend to remind her husband that there are 25-odd other books in the New Testament.

Revelations is certainly not more important in the scheme of things than any of the others, and is in fact a great deal less important than the first four

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

Hi MaryJ, you need to address the deeper problem, him not acting like Christ in their marriage.

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Trust me, a man’s idea of foreplay in the kitchen has nothing to do with doing the dishes! On the other hand, the sound of a purring dishwasher loaded by her husband can set a woman on fire!

Different actions for different people and genders (usually completely unconnected to sex) can arouse wonderful feelings of romance for your spouse. How can you know that sex begins in the kitchen or anywhere else? You’ve got to learn your spouse’s love language.

frankturner.org/onlinestore.asp

Arguing with people about second coming views will get you no where. Concentrate on relationship building.

The word “Rapture” comes from the Latin word “Rapare”, it does not come from the Greek.

Memorize Matthew Matthew 24:36 “But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.”

Jeremiah 31:34
And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Read how it is used in Hebrews 8.

Modern Isreal is not a fulfillment of prophecy simply because modern Isreal has not converted to the Messiah. Read the prophecies about Isreal becoming a nation, one of the characteristics is their conversion to Messiah. Modern zionists are unbelievers.

 

[Denise_Shae]

Hi,

While I can’t speak for all Protestants with regards to their belief in the “Rapture”, I can tell you what part of Scripture my evangelical Non-Denominational friend (who is a former Catholic) and his church use to support the belief:

Matthew 24:40 Then two shall be in the field: one shall be taken, and one shall be left. 41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill: one shall be taken, and one shall be left.

It’s those two lines that have him and God knows how many others, buying into the Rapture belief.

What boggles my mind is they dismiss what Jesus says in Matthew 25 - “Judging of the Nations”.
Maybe because that’s a whole “works” thing?

I even told him that this idea of the Rapture (according to Fr. Mitch Pacwa) wan’t taught or believed by any Protestant churches before the 1830s, and I entreated my beloved friend not to take my word for it but to look it up for himself.
He must not have checked, because the last few times we spoke, he alluded to it.
I just changed the subject. While he maintains that he’s still searching for the Truth, his ears are closed when it comes to certain topics. The Rapture is one of them. Purgatory’s another.
Plus a few others I won’t get into here.

From John Martignoni’s “Bible Christian Society”:

Apologetics 101-11

**Q: A friend of mine has been reading the “Left Behind” books that have all of this stuff about the “Rapture” in them…is there really going to be a “Rapture” like these books talk about? **

**A. No, there’s not. The “Rapture” refers to a passage in First Thessalonians, chapter 4, which talks about Christians being “caught up” in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Many Christians believe, and the “Left Behind” books promote, that this being “caught up” to meet the Lord will occur before the Great Tribulation which is headed our way in the near future. Christians will simply vanish, meet Jesus somewhere in the air, and then return with Him to Heaven to await the end of time

But notice, in verse 17, Paul says that “…we who are alive, who are left,” shall be caught up. Remember that…those who are “left” get caught up to meet the Lord.

The “Left Behind” books get their name from a passage in Luke 17 and a similar passage in Matthew 24 which talk about the coming of the Lord being like the days of Noah and the days of Lot. Matthew 24 puts it this way: “As were the days of Noah, so will be the coming of the Son of man…they ate, they drank, they married and they did not know until the flood came and swept them all away, so will be the coming of the Son of man. Then two men will be in the field, one is taken and one is left. Two women grinding at the mill, one is taken one is left.”

“See,” Rapture enthusiasts say, “One is taken, one is left…the Rapture! Jesus takes the Christians and leaves behind non-Christians!” Two problems with that interpretation: First, Jesus’ coming is being compared to the days of Noah and the days of Lot. After the flood, who was left? Noah and his family…the good guys…the bad guys were taken! After Sodom and Gomorrah went up in smoke, who was left? Lot and his daughters…the good guys…the bad guys were taken! Second, remember 1 Thessalonians? It says that those who are “left” get to meet Jesus in the air. The good guys are left behind to meet Jesus.

In other words, you want to be left behind so that you can get caught up in the clouds to meet Jesus in the air and accompany Him back to earth at His 2nd and final coming. There will be no Rapture like the one the Left Behind books talk about…that view is not scriptural**.

There’s also a more in depth explaination in a free audio download at the site, called: “The Rapture and the Bible”

Hope this helps.

God Bless!

 

[maryj]

Hi MaryJ, you need to address the deeper problem, him not acting like Christ in their marriage.

frankturner.org/onlinestore.asp

Arguing with people about second coming views will get you no where. Concentrate on relationship building.

The word “Rapture” comes from the Latin word “Rapare”, it does not come from the Greek.

Memorize Matthew Matthew 24:36 “But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.”

Jeremiah 31:34
And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Read how it is used in Hebrews 8.

Modern Isreal is not a fulfillment of prophecy simply because modern Isreal has not converted to the Messiah. Read the prophecies about Isreal becoming a nation, one of the characteristics is their conversion to Messiah. Modern zionists are unbelievers.

Thank you Daniel, some great helpful words. We did discuss that she needs to get him to recognize that his behavior over this matter is contrary to Christs’ teachings. Exactly which prophecy should I read on Israel becoming a nation?

 

[maryj]

Denise, thank you, that will indeed help. I think your quite correct when you say sometimes their ears are just closed, mine have been closed before but through the Grace of God and prayers from others I finally heard His voice. I shall check out the links and forward them to my friend. God Bless you. And I pray we are all the one’s who are left!!

 

[sconea]

maryj…i think may be a big help.

…there have been a few Catholic books out refuting the rapture that touch on current events, but one outstanding book appeared by a Catholic author and biblical scholar in 2003. David Currie, a convert, and biblical scholar also started out refuting the rapture…but ended up including so much more!. I daresay, there will be others, but this appears to be the first book for Catholics in our generation.
entangled in the fundamentalist end-times mania.

It’s a phenomenal book and easy to read. Also contains trememdous research on the early church fathers, hebrew and secular writers and all the so-called end times verses in Daniel, the Apocalypse etc. You will even learn the why of this end-times stuff and how it keeps people from seeing the truth of the Catholic Faith. Also includes the thinking of the modern scholars and theologians.

Scott Hahn who wrote the forward, said, "Dave has written something remarkable here.......a virtual summa of apocalyptic texts and prophetic positions." If you are interested, you can read the reviews at amazon.com.

There is just so much confusion. You will see lists of ‘end time’ events that include some Catholic thinking , but are also filled with much protestant fundamentalist errors…like the kingdom of the 10 kings …for example found in prostestant literature. Dave fully explains these errors. If you want the truth about today’s events…this is the book to read.

Rapture: The End-Times Error That Leaves the Bible Behind. by David Currie

available at amazon…check the reviews